Is it possible for a Religious person to go full circle and become atheist

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I think that the Church loves to study creation as it points to the Creator.
Different philosophers can provide tools to help us ask questions about creation. Quite a few scientific discoveries have been made by Catholics who studied the heavens. Some have been revised of course, as new tools of study have come to the fore.
 
It is a Catholic dogma that we can acknowledge God’s existence as an object of rational knowledge — that is, by our natural powers of reasoning. Natural theology is not a fruitless endeavour. No particular philosophical school or formula, however, Neoplatonic or otherwise, is necessary for that claim.
 
Well, “how the universe works” is related to how human beings flourish… There is an order in the universe, which if followed, produces happiness… This hinges on the first principle - a Creator - which does the ordering, so to speak. If you take away the ordering principle, what is left but chaos? Nothing but dark and deep “waters,” swirling around… as in Genesis, eh?
 
kapp19 said:
Well, “how the universe works” is related to how human beings flourish… There is an order in the universe, which if followed, produces happiness
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Of all the arguments for the existence of God, this seems to me the most contrary to our experience. What is the “order” that governs human beings and other animate living things? It is the order that they persist by devouring other living things. For whom does this produce happiness? Not for the devoured.
 
It’s not really an argument for the existence of God (although one can be made with this logic - see the Fifth Way of St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Summa Theologica, Q. 2 A. 2 - which is an easily misunderstood argument, but a good one if read correctly), but rather it is to point out that if there is no point determined beforehand, we are left to ourselves to determine the “point” of existing… as the existentialists say.

Each thing pursues its own order for its own good. There are contraries built in, and hierarchies built in, but these subsist in the whole order of the universe “as” a whole, which is according to the Wisdom of God, “which orders all things sweetly.”

It’s not nice to be eaten.
 
jeannetherese said:
Quite a few scientific discoveries have been made by Catholics who studied the heavens. Some have been revised of course, as new tools of study have come to the fore.
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Do you mean that their discoveries were made just because they were catholics or that it just happened to be catholics who made the discoveries?
 
It’s also nice to eat.

Actually, eating is a specifically good image to describe order… The lower is destroyed and sublimated into the higher creature. And this is also what God does with souls, in a certain sense - we are destroyed in our own nature (partially), then sublimated into His own Being… This is partially the meaning of the Resurrection appearance with the fish at the end of John… Souls are caught (from the chaos of the dark waters), they die, they are purified, they become one with God in Christ’s sacred Flesh…

Look, you are touching on a theme that takes some care to explore in a measured way. If you really want, give the I-2-2, I-22, I-47 (especially), I-96, and I-103 a read and PM me, then we can chat at length about it: SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prima Pars
 
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Most of the universe is unbelievably hostile to human life. Even on earth everything from hurricanes to pathogens can wipe human life out. I see no evidence of a universe designed for human life, other than that conditions make it possible for human life to exist… for now.
 
Except for the reality of human reason… This elevates us.

Don’t confuse order with peace.

Maybe give those same passages a look, if you want. Maybe we will see you start the path towards being a Nicea Theist!
 
Human reason isn’t magic. We see lesser forms of it in other animals. I’m not convinced by this argument either.
 
Well if you don’t think humans are categorically superior to other animals because of the power to reason then that’s a separate issue, though connected. Thomas on human intellect (same link) is helpful.
 
kapp19 said:
It’s also nice to eat.

Actually, eating is a specifically good image to describe order… The lower is destroyed and sublimated into the higher creature. And this is also what God does with souls, in a certain sense - we are destroyed in our own nature (partially), then sublimated into His own Being… This is partially the meaning of the Resurrection appearance with the fish at the end of John… Souls are caught (from the chaos of the dark waters), they die, they are purified, they become one with God in Christ’s sacred Flesh…

Look, you are touching on a theme that takes some care to explore in a measured way. If you really want, give the I-2-2, I-22, I-47 (especially), I-96, and I-103 a read and PM me, then we can chat at length about it: SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prima Pars
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No pm’s. It’s a forum. Everyone is involved.
 
I think we have bigger brains and greater cognitive abilities. But we’re not the only creatures on the planet with some degree of rational capacity.
 
I was very devoutly religious and then left and am now agnostic. I knew my faith very well and learned all I could about it, went to daily mass, prayed daily, read many spiritual books and tried to grow spiritually and perfect myself. I was seriously discerning religious life and was raised in a very devout family, attended a good Catholic school and a very traditional and orthodox Catholic college and even lived with religious sisters for a year. I left because I started having questions and I never got good answers for them. I started questioning what I believed and the reasons that had been given to me were no longer enough or seemed unreliable.

It’s certainly possible and different things can play a role. Most likely I would guess a devout person would leave due to intellectual reasons- doubts and questions that aren’t resolved or realizing there is no way to truly know.
 
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If it was more reasonable and rational I think more people would believe it. A lot of Christianity relies on faith and accepting you can’t understand
 
Even if I were to somehow come around to the view that a Prime Mover was necessary, I still can’t see why I’d leap from that to a personal god.
 
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can see how you’d need a creator to make this world, but I see no evidence suggesting that a God would be a personal God or a loving one
 
kapp19 said:
Actually, eating is a specifically good image to describe order… The lower is destroyed and sublimated into the higher creature. And this is also what God does with souls, in a certain sense - we are destroyed in our own nature (partially), then sublimated into His own Being… This is partially the meaning of the Resurrection appearance with the fish at the end of John… Souls are caught (from the chaos of the dark waters), they die, they are purified, they become one with God in Christ’s sacred Flesh…
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I have to say that this confirms my thoughts. If there is order imposed on us, it is a somewhat unpleasant sort of order.
 
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