Is it possible for a Religious person to go full circle and become atheist

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It’s also nice to eat.

Actually, eating is a specifically good image to describe order… The lower is destroyed and sublimated into the higher creature.
I do not follow your train of thought here. Exactly what is sublimated into what? And why are you classifying what is eaten as being lower (lower in what sense?) compared to the eater?
This is partially the meaning of the Resurrection appearance with the fish at the end of John… Souls are caught (from the chaos of the dark waters), they die, they are purified, they become one with God in Christ’s sacred Flesh…
How do you know this is what the author meant? Is there a commentary by the author somewhere that I have missed?
 
Except for the reality of human reason… This elevates us.
Elevated how? We have some abilities other creatures does not have. But we lack more abilities than we share with the creatures you deem less elevated. Count the number of cells in the human system and you will find more non-human cells than human cells.
 
Most likely I would guess a devout person would leave due to intellectual reasons- doubts and questions that aren’t resolved or realizing there is no way to truly know.
I suppose that happens, unfortunately, when the believer does not understand or appreciate the “twofold order of knowledge” and that truths of faith that are proposed to the mind are suprarational, not based on natural reasoning, but on divine revelation. So we can not know with certainty from observation or logic that God is a Trinity of Persons or that we are destined for the Beatific Vision.
 
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We are the only creatures that have demonstrated recursive reasoning ability, which is necessary for the type of intellectual powers that Aquinas describes as a categorical distinction in human beings compared to other animals.
 
I have no idea what “recursive” means in this context. Other primates show similar, if lesser cognitive abilities. But even if we are orders of magnitude smarter than chimps, so what? I don’t regard that as evidence for God, personal or of the pantheistic or deistic varieties.
 
So why should one believe something? You could tell me to believe anything that doesn’t make sense and say it just requires faith. Faith is an excuse for not having any good logical reasons to believe
 
The Neoplatonism that underlies Christianity has a certain logical coherence. I just reject it as actually representing reality.
 
Maybe start with reading the text indicated - I notice some here want to share opinions and engage in debate but not actually ground it in a relevant major text. That’s not a good use of anyone’s time.
 
We have an entirely different faculty, which is able to take in infinite being… the reason. Try giving the text alluded to a read, it’s helpful.
 
This seems incredibly circular, and probably not true. The fact that some have to invoke a prime mover at all suggests an inability to grasp infinity
 
Our ability to reason…and honestly we aren’t all that good at it…seems to have been an emergent property as our brain size and connections increased. We take the ability to reason as why we are superior. To a fish, we are inferior because we can’t breathe in water. :hugs:

If other primates had developed reasoning skills we’d have to use another criteria to claim our superiority…perhaps our opposable thumbs?

Our reason is often superseded by our emotions. Our emotions seem to be quite necessary to make decisions that reason alone could never accomplish. Thus, God seems to be declared as pure reason which also means He has no emotions. Is that really “better”? How can a being with no emotion “love” us?
 
We have an entirely different faculty, which is able to take in infinite being… the reason. Try giving the text alluded to a read, it’s helpful.
This “elevated” label is entirely subjective and have no objective merit. All creatures have various ablities. It comes with the arrow of entropy.

“which is able to take in infinite being”
Please clarify this?

I fail to see Summa as authoritative in any way imaginable. We know far more about nature than Thomas ever did. So why is what he wrote over a half milennia ago of any importance to this discussion?
 
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We are the only creatures that have demonstrated recursive reasoning ability, which is necessary for the type of intellectual powers that Aquinas describes as a categorical distinction in human beings compared to other animals.
Several various species can apply a method to solve a problem. This is not a specific human trait.
 
My friend… If you want to argue about a point, which is based in a text, on a complex subject, maybe it’s better not to lead off with, “That’s arbitrary and without objective merit!” and then say, “Can you clarify the main point?” and then move to say “It’s a bad source, the author knew nothing.”

We are trying to measure a certain kind of goodness - which would entail a knowledge of what we mean by “good.” For Thomas, goodness is the appetitive apprehension of being (whereas truth is the cognitive or intellectual apprehension of being). So, the key is being, which is the ground for “doing”. Of COURSE xyz creatures do this or that stuff better than humans. That is not the point - which creature is nobler as a substance in general? It will be the creature with the form oriented towards a fuller appropriation of goodness, namely, a wider possibility for apprehending being. (The form of humanity is the rational part - as opposed to the matter, which is the bodily part.) The rational appetitive power (as opposed to the merely sensitive or vegetal appetites) can take in an indefinite amount of being by the process of abstraction of sensible forms (which is, nevertheless, a process mediated by the senses, which makes us lower than purely intellectual substances), thus is ordered towards something higher (viz. nobler) than mere animals and plants and dead things. This higher ordering - which is rooted in the being of the creature itself (rather than something which is tacked onto it - as rational animality simply is what a human IS) - makes humans nobler creatures than other bodily creatures.

That’s the basic argument. It is a systematization of common sense, which common sense is still unchanged since Aristotle was hanging out by the lagoons in Greece trying to figure out if a sea sponge is a plant or an animal. (By the way, still not too clear.)
 
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I think you are looking at the problem of infinite regression and failing to see that it is precisely BECAUSE “the infinite” is grasped, together with the nature of causality, that makes those of us who subscribe to the cosmological argument (in its various modes) actually subscribe to it.
 
Do you mean that their discoveries were made just because they were catholics or that it just happened to be catholics who made the discoveries?
HI Michaelangelo,

Their desire to study the Creator’s creation led to important discoveries and this desire is connected to their Catholic faith.
However, it seems to me that the second part of your question asks whether a non-Catholic might potentially have made the same discovery and my answer would be ‘of course!’ Knowledge is available to all.
Different people will have differing motivations for their studies and these motivations may inform their line of approach or the understandings upon which they base their research. Our knowledge of creation continues to grow and both Catholics and non-Catholics pursue this knowledge.
 
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It seems the point was missed - it is not “this doesn’t make sense, just believe it anyway” (this is closer to how Islam works - read Benedict XVI’s "in"famous Regensburg address) - it is rather, “you could not have known this unless I told you, but it does not involve a logical contradiction.”
 
Would you find evidence from miracles and eye witnesses attractive?
 
Unfortunately, I know many who have left all faith and religion. Generally, they haven’t become atheist but a self-described agnostic and have found a place on the sidelines of any religion.
 
Hi Michaelangelo,
What makes a cell in a human a non-human cell?
Thanks a million!
jt
 
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