Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Estel]

It’s not a church teaching that we can’t be free to hope for a universe without pain. It is written: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.” I am not contradicting anything the Church teaches, only that the pain will have an end. The catechism says nothing about the souls in pain forever, it does however, bring up a good point: 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

 

[Aloysium]

CCC

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. the Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed.”

 

[Aloysium]

BTW: For people with anxiety disorders, obsessive compulsive disorder and depression, your focus on hell may be a mental health issue. At any rate, it is better to look up to the heavens than down into the abyss. I’m outahere; blessings to all.

 

[Amandil]

Amandil is not assuming. Their comments are grounded in the constant teaching of the Church.

Not only is it grounded in Church teaching it’s grounded in reality and common sense.

This is something that oldcelt should find readily observable: sin is addictive.

Alcoholics steeped in their addiction deny their addiction exists.

If you asked them they would insist that they could give up alcohol any time they wanted.

Yet when it comes to the point of actually doing it, they either refuse ir simply can’t. Some are so deep into dependency that they can’t function without it.

People addicted to narcotics such as pot, cocaine, crack, or heroin are even worse. Aside from the obvious physical dependency and that they know that it’s killing them yet they will not to be without it.

People who are in habitual sin, even if it is something like gambling or gossip, have so handed their wills over to the sin which they love that they simply have no will of their own in the matter. This is precisely what Jesus meant when He said, "those who sin make themselves slaves to sin. "

The deception of sin is so dangerous because it is precisely so subtle. Aside from the jolt reaction one has when one sins, the heightened fear and anxiety combined with excitement and lust for the object desired, once the deed is done and the emotions subside it’s easy to be fooled into the assumption, “well I don’t feel any different, it must not be sinful.”

This deception leads people to a further deception that sin is “no big deal”, that “it doesn’t hurt anyone”, that “it’s a victimless crime”, or “their doing what they love, what’s so wrong with that”(sound familiar?).

“Live and let live,” is Satan’s perfect ad campaign. Because as Lewis put it in letter 12 from “The Screwtape Letters”:

“Because indeed the safest road to hell is the gradual one-soft under foot, without any sudden turns, without milestones, without signposts…”

 

[simpleas]

Oh it’s all doom n gloom

 

[Amandil]

Oh it’s all doom n gloom

I prefer Marvin from “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”:

“It’s all going to end in tears…”

 

[bisco]

“fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” it’s not all gloom and doom, but it will be if we insist on holding onto our sins and hoping it isn’t.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.

Scripture tells us that hell is everlasting. That is a fundamental spur for us to prefer everlasting heaven.

Do the scriptures lie? Matthew 25:

“41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Was Jesus just kidding us?

 

[glendab]

Hello Charlemagne.

Scripture tells us that hell is everlasting. That is a fundamental spur for us to prefer everlasting heaven.

Do the scriptures lie? Matthew 25:

“41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Was Jesus just kidding us?

Some seem to think so and would have you believe it was hyperbole.

Glenda

 

[Mark121359]

Admittedly, I haven’t read this entire thread. But this thread seems to be arguing in favor of the heresy of universalism. Here, Fr. Dwight Longenecker addresses this danger that is universalism;

***The modern Catholic Church is shot through with the heresy of universalism and semi-universalism.

What is universalism? The belief that “everyone will eventually be saved no matter what.” Semi-universalism is “we hope and believe that everyone will be saved no matter what.” In other words, semi- universalism is universalism for those who don’t have the guts to be universalists.

Universalism is a heresy because it is a half truth. Christ did die for all, but the universalist only holds on to that part of the truth. He denies the other half of the full truth, that not everyone will accept that grace and therefore some will go to hell.

It is a sentimentalist heresy because it is based not on clear thinking or logic or the authority of Church teaching or the catechism or the Sacred Scriptures, for there is no support anywhere for universalism in the Catholic faith. Instead it is based on people’s longing to be nice and ‘not hurt anyone’s feelings’ and the syrupy sentiment that, “God is too loving to send anyone to hell.”

The effects of universalism on the church are catastrophic. It’s not real hard to understand. People aren’t dumb. If everyone is going to be saved, then why bother to go to church? If everyone is going to be saved there is no such thing as mortal sin. If everyone is going to be saved there is no need for evangelism. If everyone is going to be saved there is no need to feed the hungry, become a priest, build the church and become a saint.

Of all the various Hydra heads of modernism, universalism is probably the most insidious and diabolical and destructive of them all. It is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It’s sweetness and light and sentimentality and underneath it’s poison.***

This is very close to what ***glendab ***was saying in post # 296…which is spot on I might add!

Peace, Mark

 

[Estel]

It is in our concept of eternity that provides a ray of light into a very solemn teaching. “Eternal” is a word that can mean without end, or a very long period of time. Now, in the sense of the eternal life Jesus offers, this is without end. However, eternal punishment may have an end, and I personally am hopeful of this. And this hope is based large part in God being loving and merciful, and numerous scriptures that support this and a time of universal restoration.

 

[bisco]

you may hope for it, but when you write it here, as a catholic, you encourage sinners not to amend their ways. if Jesus or the church wanted that, they would have stated accordingly.

 

[Estel]

you may hope for it, but when you write it here, as a catholic, you encourage sinners not to amend their ways. if Jesus or the church wanted that, they would have stated accordingly.

Fear of hell fire is not why we are bound to do good or avoid evil. “Perfect love drives out fear”, writes Saint John in scripture. Jesus, perfect in love, did not come to condemn the world. In love Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Indeed, much is to be lost by the sinner who ends up in hell. However, all might not be lost. And, the church does want us to hope for that, and here it is, stated accordingly:

CCC

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’

 

[Mark121359]

Fear of hell fire is not why we are bound to do good or avoid evil. “Perfect love drives out fear”, writes Saint John in scripture. Jesus, perfect in love, did not come to condemn the world. In love Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Indeed, much is to be lost by the sinner who ends up in hell. However, all might not be lost. And, the church does want us to hope for that, and here it is, stated accordingly:

CCC

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’

For those who live the bolded above, yes there is hope they’ll be saved. For those who refuse, and there are many…just take a look at all the evil in the world, they’re in for one hell of a rude awakening! (no pun intended) And you can take it to the bank that it will be eternal!

from Merriam-Webster
1eter·nal adjective \i-ˈtər-nəl\

: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever

Peace, Mark

 

[bisco]

i don’t see how that correlates to a ‘get out of hell free’ card. we ‘hope’ to attain heaven by trusting in Christ, and our good works by the grace of God. not by sinning and hoping hell doesn’t last forever.

 

[simpleas]

Interesting what Fr. Robert Barron has to say on Whether Hell is Crowded or Empty (not so much about relenting on eternal punishment, but worth a listen)

youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4

I’d roll with alot of that

 

[bisco]

i don’t know who he is, but if his views are in line with church teaching, i have no problem with them.

 

[Amandil]

Admittedly, I haven’t read this entire thread. But this thread seems to be arguing in favor of the heresy of universalism. Here, Fr. Dwight Longenecker addresses this danger that is universalism;

This is very close to what ***glendab ***was saying in post # 296…which is spot on I might add!

Peace, Mark

Exactly.

 

[Estel]

Yes, Father Barron states: “we may reasonably hope all people will be saved”. “Do we know it? No”. I agree with him. He also says hell is more of condition rather than a place, and the fire is metaphorical. This we can also hope for. John Paul the second also stated: “Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it”. (General Audience of July 28, 1999). Sounds like we can’t really be sure, but are free to hope for a happy ending supported by scripture and the fact God is most merciful.

 

[bisco]

okay, i watched it. he seems a bit out there, does he get the church’s stamp of approval? if the door to hell is locked from the inside, why didn’t the rich man unlock it and join lazurus in abraham’s bosom? oh wait, there’s this great chasm. i know, it’s just a metaphor. no worries.