Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Aloysium]

and thankfully for us, the added benefit of purgatory, by God’s grace, if necessary.

Nothing unclean can enter the presence of God. Although we are in heaven, our mortal sins forgiven through the sacrifce of Jesus on the cross, our lack of purity (what I understand as other minor sins, the ongoing desire to sin and the consequences of our sins on us such as the need to make some sort of reparation), these must be purged. Puragtory does not change who we are; it cleanses us.

 

[bisco]

exactly, are you sure we’re in heaven?

 

[Aloysium]

exactly, are you sure we’re in heaven?

Now? We could be. The mass is beautiful; the Host is the body of Christ. We are here joining together in praising God.

Purgatory, could be still better. Living the last moments of people I love, I know we go through much suffering at the end that ultimately helps free us from the bonds of this life.
I’d have to say yes, I’m sure for those who have repented, who have chosen God, knowing love, purgatory is heaven, whatever suffering it may entail.

And then after that:

John 14:1-3"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.” If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going."

 

[bisco]

our rcia priest told us that no one was in heaven yet. we discussed it a bit, but i’m still perplexed.

 

[glendab]

Hello Bisco.

our rcia priest told us that no one was in heaven yet. we discussed it a bit, but i’m still perplexed.

Guess what? Your RCIA Priest is wrong. First God is there and He was truly a Man, therefore the First among many is there. Second so is the Blessed Virgin Mary, Assumed body and soul into Heaven. That makes at least two persons. Third, when the Church declares someone a Saint, on of the things that you can now count on is that that person is in Heaven and you can rely on them for their intercession and if you become devoted to them, in a certain way, you will experience the Communion of the Saints in that through their intercession you will be guided by their supernatural helps. Fourthly, the Angels behold the face of God; your particular Guardian Angel, and everyone has one, is experiencing Heaven while remaining with you in this life. I could find more, but your RCIA Priest is way, way, way too wrong to be conducting RCIA fi he truly believes and teaches you in that setting that no one is in Heaven yet. I guess you should just sit back and bide your time in his class and smile and pray a whole lot for him. He’s made a wreck of the gift of faith he’s been given. Look at that as a lesson beyond the room your in and say to yourself, “But for the grace of God, there go I.” Read the Catechism and find out what the Church really believes and teaches and like I had to, if I wanted to see the Sacraments, I had to keep my mouth shut.

Glenda

 

[Amandil]

Hello Bisco.

Guess what? Your RCIA Priest is wrong. First God is there and He was truly a Man, therefore the First among many is there. Second so is the Blessed Virgin Mary, Assumed body and soul into Heaven. That makes at least two persons. Third, when the Church declares someone a Saint, on of the things that you can now count on is that that person is in Heaven and you can rely on them for their intercession and if you become devoted to them, in a certain way, you will experience the Communion of the Saints in that through their intercession you will be guided by their supernatural helps. Fourthly, the Angels behold the face of God; your particular Guardian Angel, and everyone has one, is experiencing Heaven while remaining with you in this life. I could find more, but your RCIA Priest is way, way, way too wrong to be conducting RCIA fi he truly believes and teaches you in that setting that no one is in Heaven yet. I guess you should just sit back and bide your time in his class and smile and pray a whole lot for him. He’s made a wreck of the gift of faith he’s been given. Look at that as a lesson beyond the room your in and say to yourself, “But for the grace of God, there go I.” Read the Catechism and find out what the Church really believes and teaches and like I had to, if I wanted to see the Sacraments, I had to keep my mouth shut.

Glenda

We really need to be careful when it comes to priests. They’re human and sometimes they say things which may stumble into heterodoxy.

OTOH priests are not immune to actually saying something heretical either.

Maybe biscotti simply mistook what was said. It perhaps he can take these questions to the priest, or even the head pastor(if there is one at his parish and its not the rcia priest), and discuss it with him?!

 

[bisco]

perhaps i misunderstood. anyway, rcia has been over since may and both the priest and the pastor have moved on in the unending parish evangelist shuffle. i have read the catechism, but don’t recall, can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Amandil]

perhaps i misunderstood. anyway, rcia has been over since may and both the priest and the pastor have moved on in the unending parish evangelist shuffle. i have read the catechism, but don’t recall, can you point me in the right direction?

There’s CCC 949 and following.

But even in the Mass, in the Preface to the Eucharistic prayer and before the “Trisagion”(the Holy, Holy, Holy), the priest says in the rubrics:

…And so, with the company of Angels and Saints, we sing the hymn of your praise, as without end we acclaim…"(Ordinary time IV)

This is the moment in the Mass where heaven and earth are one, where the whole Church is joined together in Spirit to worship God, both the Church Triumphant, and the Church Militant.

 

[arte]

What you don’t trust me?

(Greek, apokatastasis; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum, restoration to the original condition).

A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.

This doctrine was explicitly taught by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and in more than one passage.

Catholic Encyclopedia

“In love did He bring the world into existence; in love does He guide it during this its temporal existence; in love is He going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of Him who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised. And since in the New World the Creator’s love rules over all rational nature, the wonder at His mysteries that will be revealed then will captivate to itself the intellect of all rational beings whom He has created so that they might have delight in Him, whether they be evil or whether they be just.”

• St Isaac the Syrian, Ascetical Homilies 38

The Homilies are apparently not available online but can be purchased. Here for example.

They are quoted extensively on various websites such as this one and is quoted extensively in a paper by Metrolpolitan Hilarion here.

Thank you Seraphim73. There is some excellent information in your links. We should all focus on "the astonishing love of God’.

 

[arte]

I don’t know the official Catholic position or if it has one position, but linked a Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article earlier which you may have missed. The article lays out the logic behind three different positions, each consistent with scripture, and then discusses the pros and cons.

The link below enters the article at the section which sets out the three positions, which are: that God’s love only extends to an elect; that God’s love extends to all but is limited; or that God’s love extends to all and is unlimited (so no everlasting torment).

plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/#ThrPriEscVie

Excellent article Inocente. I firmly believe in position number 3: “that God’s love extends to all and is unlimited (so no everlasting torment)”. God’s love cannot extend to only an elect and God’s love cannot be limited.

 

[glendab]

Hello Bisco.

perhaps i misunderstood. anyway, rcia has been over since may and both the priest and the pastor have moved on in the unending parish evangelist shuffle. i have read the catechism, but don’t recall, can you point me in the right direction?

Since your RCIA period is way over, I’d say let it all go. At your end of life you are the one who will be judged on what you did with the gift of faith God gives, not the RCIA instructor and not the Pastor nor anyone else. So, the mistake is only bothering you obviously. There is nothing you can do about it now, let it pass like water under the bridge. Ultimately though, YOU and you alone are responsible for developing and nurturing your little mustard seed of faith. You can do this by many means. Learning all you need to know from reliable sources is your responsibility. I suggest a book called Catholicism For Dummies which is available from Amazon for cheap cheap. I have and love it and wish it was around when I was in RCIA. It keeps everything brief and to the point and doesn’t leave much out. Of course it is only the bare bones of the faith, but you’ve got the rest of your life to be Catholic. The more you know the better off you’ll be. Besides that, if you do know stuff, you won’t fall for much that could wreck your faith before it is solidly formed.

Pray the Rosary everyday. Go to Confession frequently. Attend not only Sunday Mass but also some daily Masses if your work schedule allows. Go to Adoration and find some books the Saints have written to nurture you. Imitation of Christ is a good one or the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius is another. Read the Catechism and if you don’t know something, do research. There are lots of good books for beginners available for laypersons who are new. Scott Hahn is one source who is excellent, so is Patrick Madrid or Jeff Cavins. Read your Bible even if only for 10 minutes a day. It will help. Actually if done prayerfully for 15 minutes a day, it comes with an Indulgence. There is tons of good stuff you can do for yourself, but only you can do it. Do not sit back and wait for the grace of the Sacraments to do for you what you should be doing for yourself. If you don’t use it, you will loose it, so USE it!

Oh well, I’ve said too much again and I’m way off the topic. Forgive me. I’m slow this morning.

Glenda

 

[bisco]

Excellent article Inocente. I firmly believe in position number 3: “that God’s love extends to all and is unlimited (so no everlasting torment)”. God’s love cannot extend to only an elect and God’s love cannot be limited.

so no everlasting torment, what awaits us sinners with no faith and who refuse to repent? and what did Jesus mean with all His comments and statements of hell?

 

[Vico]

In theory, yes, such rejection can happen because man has free will. I just cannot think of a scenario of such rejection happening. …

Bottom line: I cannot fathom a God who would reject anyone, and I cannot create a scenario by which any fully knowledgeable person would reject God. Therefore, I don’t see much likelihood of an “eternal punishment” occurring. A priest once told us, though, that “eternal” meant something different to Jesus’ contemporaries. It did not mean “forever”, but I do not fully remember the definition he gave.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does teach on this issue. You are thinking of the cases addressed in 1793. I don’t know what you mean by “fully knowledgeable”. The full knowledge necessary for mortal sin does not require knowledge of the gravity of the particular sin, only that is it not to be done because it is sinful. 1791 in particular addresses a free will rejection of God.
IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61​

 

[Tom_Baum]

arte;12220999:

The contradiction is in your understanding.
What is Heaven but a loving mutual relationship with God?
That is all it is, but that is the fulfillment of everything we would ever want as God is Beauty, Truth and Goodness.
You cannot possess heaven, you must give it.
Satan did not surrender to God as the Word surrenders to the Father.
You will not go to heaven expecting some reward, but in the actual performance of God’s will.
Once we are dead. There is no more moral change. You cannot become better or worse than you are. You are dead - this is finished. From that kernal that is your soul, you will be resurrected in accordance to who you became in this life. If you are sin itself, you will be sin itself as seen by the true Judge who is Love itself.

As far as, “If you are sin itself, you will be sin itself as seen by the true Judge who is Love itself.”

Didn’t Jesus become sin by taking on sin even tho He never sinned?

Maybe Jesus did this for a catholic reason.

Ever thought that hell might be eternal but not everlasting?

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”

Ever thought that Jesus was saying what was happening as opposed to thinking that it was a good time to say a psalm and decided to say this one?

 

[Amandil]

As far as, “If you are sin itself, you will be sin itself as seen by the true Judge who is Love itself.”

Didn’t Jesus become sin by taking on sin even tho He never sinned?

Maybe Jesus did this for a catholic reason.

Ever thought that hell might be eternal but not everlasting?

“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”

Ever thought that Jesus was saying what was happening as opposed to thinking that it was a good time to say a psalm and decided to say this one?

“He will punish those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might on the day he comes to be glorified…”

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

 

[bisco]

Hello Bisco.

Since your RCIA period is way over, I’d say let it all go. At your end of life you are the one who will be judged on what you did with the gift of faith God gives, not the RCIA instructor and not the Pastor nor anyone else. So, the mistake is only bothering you obviously. There is nothing you can do about it now, let it pass like water under the bridge. Ultimately though, YOU and you alone are responsible for developing and nurturing your little mustard seed of faith. You can do this by many means. Learning all you need to know from reliable sources is your responsibility. I suggest a book called Catholicism For Dummies which is available from Amazon for cheap cheap. I have and love it and wish it was around when I was in RCIA. It keeps everything brief and to the point and doesn’t leave much out. Of course it is only the bare bones of the faith, but you’ve got the rest of your life to be Catholic. The more you know the better off you’ll be. Besides that, if you do know stuff, you won’t fall for much that could wreck your faith before it is solidly formed.

Pray the Rosary everyday. Go to Confession frequently. Attend not only Sunday Mass but also some daily Masses if your work schedule allows. Go to Adoration and find some books the Saints have written to nurture you. Imitation of Christ is a good one or the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius is another. Read the Catechism and if you don’t know something, do research. There are lots of good books for beginners available for laypersons who are new. Scott Hahn is one source who is excellent, so is Patrick Madrid or Jeff Cavins. Read your Bible even if only for 10 minutes a day. It will help. Actually if done prayerfully for 15 minutes a day, it comes with an Indulgence. There is tons of good stuff you can do for yourself, but only you can do it. Do not sit back and wait for the grace of the Sacraments to do for you what you should be doing for yourself. If you don’t use it, you will loose it, so USE it!

Oh well, I’ve said too much again and I’m way off the topic. Forgive me. I’m slow this morning.

Glenda

thank you for your excellent advice and insights glendab, can you point me toward the catholic teaching on heaven and who is there? thanks!

 

[Aloysium]

Hey Tom, what’s your problem. Why are you asking me if i “ever thought” this or that?
Just make your point.
Look, Hell is mentioned some 50 times in the Bible.
The church says it exists.
Get over it and focus on love.

 

[Estel]

“Anything is possible with God”, so the answer to the thread topic is yes. However, will it happen? I think so. Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Francis De Sales both were quoted as saying the pains of hell could be lessened. In addition, it is written “No one is cast off by the Lord forever”. Also, it is written, in Revelation 21:4, that there will be no more pain. So, I’d say it is possible, and likely. Our concept of eternity just doesn’t make us sure about these things, but we can be free to hope.

 

[bisco]

is this church teaching?

 

[Aloysium]

is this church teaching?

I would go to more reliable sources than random people on the internet.
Try: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM