Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[OneSheep]

This coming from one who has implied that I’m a “psycho/sociopath”.

There was none meant to be implied, I was making a point about empathy. I think you are still reading the worst into what I write. Please, remember the words of the priest. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

You are not my mother, either.
.

Oh, I am glad you brought this up again! Time for another sermon:

Yes, I am not your mother, but I am assuming that you would address your own mother with much more respect. Jesus calls us to love and respect everyone. Yes, we are to love and respect everyone as much as we do our own mothers and children. The way we treat one another is very important. Do you remember the story of the good Samaritan? Samaritans were not loved by the Jews, but Jesus uses the “good” person as an example from the outgroup.

When I am in condemning mode toward another person, that person is not seen to me as a person of value. The call is to forgive, not condemn. In the mean time, while I am in condemnation mode, I am ignorant of the person’s great value in the eyes of God. Are you seeing my value in the eyes of God?

If you do not see my value, then you do not know what you are doing. I do not condemn you for not seeing my value, if you do not. I have said things that you detest, and when I detest something that a person says, and refrain from forgiveness, then I am subject to the automatic machinations of my nature, I am reacting emotionally in a negative way; I perceive a negative value in the other. The crowd who hung Jesus did not see His value, they did not know what they were doing. We can all relate to the psycho/sociopath; all of us are capable of having another person become dehumanized in our perceptions.

Remember, Amandil, God has us carved into the palm of His hand. He has counted the hairs on our heads. He loves us more than a mother her own child.

God bless you, Amandil, bless your family, bless your life.

 

[Amandil]

There was none meant to be implied, I was making a point about empathy. I think you are still reading the worst into what I write. Please, remember the words of the priest. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, I am glad you brought this up again! Time for another sermon:

Yes, I am not your mother, but I am assuming that you would address your own mother with much more respect. Jesus calls us to love and respect everyone. Yes, we are to love and respect everyone as much as we do our own mothers and children. The way we treat one another is very important. Do you remember the story of the good Samaritan? Samaritans were not loved by the Jews, but Jesus uses the “good” person as an example from the outgroup.

When I am in condemning mode toward another person, that person is not seen to me as a person of value. The call is to forgive, not condemn. In the mean time, while I am in condemnation mode, I am ignorant of the person’s great value in the eyes of God. Are you seeing my value in the eyes of God?

If you do not see my value, then you do not know what you are doing. I do not condemn you for not seeing my value, if you do not. I have said things that you detest, and when I detest something that a person says, and refrain from forgiveness, then I am subject to the automatic machinations of my nature, I am reacting emotionally in a negative way; I perceive a negative value in the other. The crowd who hung Jesus did not see His value, they did not know what they were doing. We can all relate to the psycho/sociopath; all of us are capable of having another person become dehumanized in our perceptions.

Remember, Amandil, God has us carved into the palm of His hand. He has counted the hairs on our heads. He loves us more than a mother her own child.

God bless you, Amandil, bless your family, bless your life.

And you persist in dodging the issue.

Whatever you say. Since you refuse to listen to reason and instead only seem to like the sound of your own voice, since you apparently have nothing to add or respond to with regards to the subject matter, and since you think that you have the right to talk down to me as if I’m a child and not an equal, I’ll bid you goodbye.

 

[Seraphim73]

But how will this happen if they will not to?

It wouldn’t happen until they willed it. Neither of them taught that universal salvation is a certainty. They just leave open the possibility that all creatures will eventually accept God’s love.

“When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” - 1 Corinthians 15:28

 

[Amandil]

It wouldn’t happen until they willed it. Neither of them taught that universal salvation is a certainty. They just leave open the possibility that all creatures will eventually accept God’s love.

“When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” - 1 Corinthians 15:28

There’s also another possibility to consider: if the reprobate once dead even have a will to begin with. Sin being the abuse of free will necessarily robs you of that will. One can be so attached to sin that they simply don’t have any more say in the matter, even if the desire is there, and the intellect knows what is good, the will just refuses to budge.

 

[Aloysium]

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. . . . 35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. . . . 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

:twocents:

I read this to mean that there will be judgement. God, at the end of time will be known as will the entirety of creation. This is not necessarily the Beatific Vision. It is actually scary, as the truth of who one is, some of which would now be presumed hidden, disguised and denied, will be all be known in eternity, as it always has been.

At any rate, we die. This life will end. The totality that is one’s soul is the seed from which a new body will be created.

The type of seed and hence the new body will be determined by the person’s actions in life. That is why it is important to “labour in the Lord” rather than giving oneself over to sin.

 

[Seraphim73]

There’s also another possibility to consider: if the reprobate once dead even have a will to begin with. Sin being the abuse of free will necessarily robs you of that will. One can be so attached to sin that they simply don’t have any more say in the matter, even if the desire is there, and the intellect knows what is good, the will just refuses to budge.

But the will is a integral part of being a human created in God’s image. I don’t see how it can ever be said to be totally not free.

 

[Amandil]

But the will is a integral part of being a human the created in God’s image. I don’t see how it can ever be said to be totally not free.

Freedom is directly ordered to the good, i.e. if I do the good that I ought the more free I am, contrarily the more evil I do the less free I am.

Jesus said, “everyone who committs sin is a slave to sin.”

Slaves by definition are not free people.

And seeing how God so totally and radically respects man’s freedom even in this life, I don’t see how in the next that all of a sudden He changes his m.o.

 

[arte]

This is heretical. Jesus certainly taught hell, and he certainly taught that “many” will wind up there.

God is so far above us in all levels. I see it as heretical the way He is diminished down to a God that looks like He has been invented by man with all the flaws of man but on a much larger scale. I constantly pray for guidance in these matters especially to Jesus because He spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.

You’re conflating so many things here its noting but incoherent nonsense. Even if I grant the above statement, the angels were evicted AFTER their sin.

In any case you’re begging the question. Hardly logical.
The statement is very clear and logical. It’s not incoherent nonsense so you must have a problem with your ability to read and take in information. In addition to no sin in Heaven, angels were perfected by the Holy Spirit through sanctification so how could an archangel and a third of the angels commit a massive mortal sin there?

Hell is not a “system”, systems are created for a purpose. Purposes are directly ordered to good ends. Hell is neither good nor does it have a purpose. Purgatory has a purpose, to conform souls with sanctifying grace into souls prepared for heaven.

So, again, your statement is illogical.

For me the word “system” conveys the meaning of the statement well enough. Not all purposes are directly ordered to good ends. The purpose of Hell is to punish souls with mortal sins very severely for an eternity. All logical. I now seriously doubt your ability to read and take in information.

You clearly have a grave misunderstanding as to what purgatory is.
Replace minor with venial and check the Catholic Encyclopedia.

And you have proof for this from the Catechism?

Another approach: “Only Christians go to Heaven”.
John 14:.6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me”. See Catechism1026 for full quote. “He (Jesus) makes partners in his heavenly glorification for those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will”. From the above quotes, I believe that Heaven is only available to Christians.
Confirmation – The Age of Discretion/Reason/Accountability/Moral Responsibility
I could not find a definitive answer on age in the Catechism. See Catechism1307. The Catholic Encyclopedia states as a rule; age 7. The website: catholic – church.org states: “If you die in the state of mortal sin after confirmation you cannot go to Heaven”. Therefore, children above the age of 7 who have been confirmed and die with a mortal sin on their souls cannot enter Heaven. So where do they go, if not to Hell?

Neither do you understand precisely what sin is.

Sin is an offense against God. Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Is my definition of sin correct? My paragraph above was written to show that God as a “parent” must be capable of showing far more love and mercy than a human parent. Therefore, there is no way that He can torture us. Therefore, Hell cannot exist.

If you are a parent, then you ought to know the answer to this. But seeing that you seem to lack the ability to think things through fully, perhaps I overestimate your ability to perceive.

Let me put it to you this way: If you knew that one of your children, say at the age of 13, came to you and said, “You’re no longer my father, you’re dead to me, and I never want to see you again,” would you still conceive and give birth to them?

I certainly do not overestimate your ability to perceive. You have shown in your post that you cannot derive the meaning from the simplest of logical discussions. I would still fertilise my wife and want her to give birth to them. However, I would not torture them for a second let alone the rest of their lives or if they were immortal - for an eternity.

Yet you are exercising that will right now.
Yes, I am but my free will should never ever lead me to becoming tortured for an eternity. Gosh, haven’t you perceived yet what my posts on this thread mean?

This is simply dumb.
I disagree; people make this statement with no perception of what the outcome is for the individual concerned

Which again demonstrates a real and gross underestimation of sin. No saint would ever say such a thing.
I am not a Saint. No matter how much our sin turns us away from God’s love, surely as an omnipotent being, He can rectify this after our death. Whatever the description of sin, my statement above still stands. Even with your illogical, rigid, dogma riddled mind, can’t you understand the logic behind my position on Hell?

“Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. You clearly do not fear the God of the universe enough. Your “wisdom” is foolishness. You clearly do not understand even what you think you know.
You are obviously quoting from Proverbs 9:10. Fear of God is an oxymoron. One reason why atheists do not believe in God is: “Why would an omnipotent being want me to fear him”? Criminal gangs, terrorists, and dictators use fear to get what they want. You are equating God with the above degenerates of our society.

Purgatory does not exist for sinners!
Correct me if I am wrong but don’t souls with venial SINS go to purgatory?
Man, his post is chock full of heretical beliefs.

This is a philosophical debate so posts are going to be challenging. Some other posts on here have also challenged our Church’s belief in Hell. I have learned a great deal from posts on both sides of the debate. Please join the debate with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism Amandil so we can all gain from your knowledge of our Catholic faith.

 

[Amandil]

This is a philosophical debate so posts are going to be challenging. Some other posts on here have also challenged our Church’s belief in Hell. I have learned a great deal from posts on both sides of the debate. Please join the debate with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism Amandil so we can all gain from your knowledge of our Catholic faith.

1. You have attached my name to the words of other people.
2. My criticisms ARE constructive. Admittedly I know that I come off as brusque or curt, but that doesn’t negate the objective truth of the criticism.

There is a serious problem here, especially given that this is suppose to be a philosophy forum, of many people not speaking or acting philosophically.

Instead of people practicing intellectual honesty in regard to philosophical discourse this is rather a hotbed of subjective opinion and confirmation bias which is being confused for philosophical discourse.

This is especially prevalent when arguments are presented as a “discussion” and not a debate; the former having to do with “sharing views” whereas the latter essentially deals with objective facts.

The bottom line is that too many people are too closely attached to their opinions to look at them objectively, and then take honest criticism personally when someone has the outrageous effrontery or insolence to contradict their opinions.

 

[inocente]

1. My criticisms ARE constructive. Admittedly I know that I come off as brusque or curt, but that doesn’t negate the objective truth of the criticism.

I don’t know the official Catholic position or if it has one position, but linked a Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article earlier which you may have missed. The article lays out the logic behind three different positions, each consistent with scripture, and then discusses the pros and cons.

The link below enters the article at the section which sets out the three positions, which are: that God’s love only extends to an elect; that God’s love extends to all but is limited; or that God’s love extends to all and is unlimited (so no everlasting torment).

plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/#ThrPriEscVie

 

[bisco]

well those three miss the Catholic teaching. fortunately, stanford is not the authoritative representative of God.

 

[inocente]

well those three miss the Catholic teaching. fortunately, stanford is not the authoritative representative of God.

Looking at the CCC, 1035 affirms the existence of hell and says “the chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God” and 1032 says we “cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him”.

Thus the CCC appears to accept proposition 1 in the article (God loves everyone), definitely accepts proposition 3 (some are eternally separated from Him), but in doing so rejects proposition 2 (“Almighty God will triumph in the end and successfully reconcile to himself each person whose reconciliation he sincerely wills or desires”).

 

[bisco]

1. God loves everyone and wills for none to be lost. there are no ‘elect’ as in some protestant theology. each individual, with the help of Gods grace chooses freely to return his love or not.
2. while Gods love extends to all and is unlimited, that is only during our earthly life. after we die, He will separate the sheep from the goats. some will go to everlasting life (with Him) and some will go to eternal torment (without Him). choose life!

 

[Seraphim73]

Freedom is directly ordered to the good, i.e. if I do the good that I ought the more free I am, contrarily the more evil I do the less free I am.

Jesus said, “everyone who committs sin is a slave to sin.”

Slaves by definition are not free people.

And seeing how God so totally and radically respects man’s freedom even in this life, I don’t see how in the next that all of a sudden He changes his m.o.

But that’s the question. Why can’t they change. I do have a question. Do you believe hell is punishment from God?

 

[bisco]

they can change, in this life.

 

[Aloysium]

But that’s the question. Why can’t they change. I do have a question. Do you believe hell is punishment from God?

We cannot change after we are dead . . . because . . . we are dead.

See Corinthians 15:36-38 . . . What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

imho: Hell is sin. It is not anything that we are not repenting and seeking to overcome, time and time again. Sin will end in the flames of death, if I cling to it, so will I. Hell isn’t punishment any more than this life is a punishment.

:twocents:

 

[Amandil]

But that’s the question. Why can’t they change. I do have a question. Do you believe hell is punishment from God?

Hell is God’s judgment on sin.

Sin is it’s own punishment.

 

[arte]

arte;12176486:

The Catholic teaching is that Satan was a good angel that sinned and fell as a result, and the same for some other angels. It was an irrevocable free choice.

Catechism

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. 266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. 267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” 268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. 269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably *rejected *God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” 270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”. 271

393 It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” 272

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” 617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Father Hardon, S.J. wrote:

29. Why do rationalists deny the existence of angels?

The Sadducees among the Jews, the Socinians in the Middle Ages, and the Anabaptists in the sixteenth century regarded the angels as only metaphorical personifications of divine power. Modern Rationalists unanimously reject the existence of an angelic world.*38. Do all Christians believe that the angels were originally created in the state of grace?*This has been the common teaching of the Catholic Church. Thus Saint John Damascene says, “All the angels were created by the Word of God and perfected by the Holy Spirit through sanctification; corresponding to their dignity and to their order of rank, they became participators in the illumination and the grace”(The Orthodox Faith, II, 3).*39. Who denies the fall and damnation of the angels?*All Materialists, Rationalists, and Spirtualists deny both that the angels fell from God’s friendship and that they were eternally condemned to hell.​

Hi Vico,

I must apologise for using a part of your post to strengthen my case against Hell without declaring my belief in angels. I do believe in angels and did not doubt their existence when I replied. Parts of your quote from the Catechism state: “The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God”. “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing." “All the angels were created by the Word of God and perfected by the Holy Spirit through sanctification; corresponding to their dignity and to their order of rank, they became participators in the illumination and the grace”
“Who denies the fall and damnation of the angels?”
“All Materialists, Rationalists, and Spiritualists deny both that the angels fell from God’s friendship and that they were eternally condemned to hell”
I am a bit of a rationalist but not a complete rationalist. The following quote from Wikipedia sums up my rationalist thoughts quite well on your quote from the Catechism including Catechism 1035:
“Because of this, rationalists argue that certain truths exist and that the intellect can directly grasp these truths. That is to say, rationalists assert that certain rational principles exist in logic, mathematics, ethics, and metaphysics that are so fundamentally true that denying them causes one to fall into contradiction”.
I see contradictions in an archangel and a third of the angels in Heaven committing a massive mortal sin in Heaven. If an archangel and a third of the angels can commit a massive mortal sin in Heaven then what about the human souls in Heaven? They must be sinning all over the place. Hardly the recipe for a Heaven that we all believe in and hope eventually to go to.

 

[Aloysium]

Vico;12176801:

. . .I see contradictions in an archangel and a third of the angels in Heaven committing a massive mortal sin in Heaven. If an archangel and a third of the angels can commit a massive mortal sin in Heaven then what about the human souls in Heaven? They must be sinning all over the place. Hardly the recipe for a Heaven that we all believe in and hope eventually to go to.

The contradiction is in your understanding.
What is Heaven but a loving mutual relationship with God?
That is all it is, but that is the fulfillment of everything we would ever want as God is Beauty, Truth and Goodness.
You cannot possess heaven, you must give it.
Satan did not surrender to God as the Word surrenders to the Father.
You will not go to heaven expecting some reward, but in the actual performance of God’s will.
Once we are dead. There is no more moral change. You cannot become better or worse than you are. You are dead - this is finished. From that kernal that is your soul, you will be resurrected in accordance to who you became in this life. If you are sin itself, you will be sin itself as seen by the true Judge who is Love itself.

 

[bisco]

and thankfully for us, the added benefit of purgatory, by God’s grace, if necessary.