Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[OneSheep]

I hope I’m not barging into something that I am going to be sorry I did, but here goes.

Welcome! Barge away!

First of all, Jesus spoke of hell existing so I would say it would be heresy to deny it exists. Everything else about it though is just each individual person’s best guess. Jesus never said that it lasted forever, nor did He say it didn’t. We don’t know if at death everyone is given a final moment to repent or not. We can hope so, but that’s all. We really don’t even know exactly what hell is, what the suffering is composed of or anything else. If Pope Francis himself wrote a book on hell, it might be good reading, but it would still just be his personal opinion. I just know this: I hope to never find out what hell is first hand.

I agree with all you completely, but I would not use the word “heresy”. Some people have a lot of trouble making sense out of hell, me included. One version I like is that hell is a bootcamp, and people eventually see the light. But then, that’s purgatory… so… see what I mean?

Therefore, if hell could be a bootcamp, why deny it outright? Besides, the Church has never said that anyone has gone to hell. A person saying simply “there is no hell regardless of how you describe it” is coming from a position of ignorance.

“Heresy” is an uncharitable word, that is what I am saying. There is no purpose to pointing fingers and saying “heresy” when a bit of gentle explanation will suffice, right?

Oh, God as I know Him would give us plenty of opportunity to repent. This is a “knowing” based in relationship. And the words “eternal fire” are used in the gospel, so the “forever” version is understandable in that light, and it is also understandable for someone to want a person they find particularly vile to roast forever…

 

[Tom_Baum]

Prayer for the dead in purgatory is beneficial.

Prayer for the reprobate in hell is pointless.

This is your opinion, but nevertheless, do you have the list of who can be prayed for “beneficially” and for whom it would be “pointless”?

 

[OneSheep]

According to İslam:

There are two kinds of people in Hell. One of them is faithful peoples but those commited sins so they must pay for their sins in Hell ofcourse if God does not forgive them. After paying they will go Heavens.

The second group who will stay in Hell eternaly are who reject God. These people will stay in Hell eternally because of rejection of God. They will suffer for their sins. They will never get out off Hell. There are some Hadiths mean that after suffering for sins they will become familiar and relent with fire punisment. But yet they will never break off Hell.

How interesting to bring a Muslim view into this!

Now, it is my understanding that in Islam, what is believed is “original forgiveness”. How do people make sense of a forgiving Allah who would never let such people into heaven?

And how is it that “God would not forgive them?”

 

[bisco]

i’m throwing up the white flag.

 

[Mark121359]

Statements such as Jesus never said that hell lasted forever are troubling. It’s the reason that glendab is so adamant about this with her posts, and it’s no wonder. Hell is forever…and ever and ever and ever! Where in the world are Catholics picking this up from? This extremely flawed notion that hell may be only temporary? Christ was clear; "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." The Bible is clear; Revelation 14:11 " And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” The CCC is clear; 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ***“eternal fire.”***617 The chief punishment of hell is ***eternal separation ***from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. From Dictionary.com; ****e·ter·nal [ih-tur-nl] adjective

1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless:****
   These articles make it clear about this horribly flawed view that is universalist thinking, and how dangerous it is to fall into this heresy. Universalism is gaining a foothold with some Catholics today. I’ve witnessed this thinking right here on this forum. Don’t believe it for one instant. There is no support anywhere for universalism in the Catholic Faith!
   catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is
   catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=43802

Many will probably mention Fr. Robert Barron. Well, many of the Saints and Doctors of the Church had the opposite opinion. They felt that most souls are damned!

There are a select few who are saved.”
“Those who are saved are in the minority.”
***-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church ***

‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’
St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church

“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed.”
Saint John Mary Vianney

‘What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!’
St. John Chrysostom, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort

Peace, Mark

“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed.”
Saint John Mary Vianney

‘What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!’
St. John Chrysostom, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort

Peace, Mark

 

[OneSheep]

Statements such as Jesus never said that hell lasted forever are troubling. It’s the reason that glendab is so adamant about this with her posts, and it’s no wonder. Hell is forever…and ever and ever and ever! Where in the world are Catholics picking this up from? This extremely flawed notion that hell may be only temporary? Christ was clear; "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." The Bible is clear; Revelation 14:11 " And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” The CCC is clear; 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ***“eternal fire.”***617 The chief punishment of hell is ***eternal separation ***from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. From Dictionary.com; ****e·ter·nal [ih-tur-nl] adjective

1. without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal ): eternal life.
2. perpetual; ceaseless; endless:****
   These articles make it clear about this horribly flawed view that is universalist thinking, and how dangerous it is to fall into this heresy. Universalism is gaining a foothold with some Catholics today. I’ve witnessed this thinking right here on this forum. Don’t believe it for one instant. There is no support anywhere for universalism in the Catholic Faith!
   catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is
   catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=43802

Many will probably mention Fr. Robert Barron. Well, many of the Saints and Doctors of the Church had the opposite opinion. They felt that most souls are damned!

Peace, Mark
]

I hear your concern, Mark.

I do not share the opinions of saints who believe that most people will choose hell. I don’t know why anyone would choose hell, except in case of blindness or ignorance.

I am not really into the “eternity” aspect of the discussion. With God, all things are possible; God is omnipotent. If God wants to pull a person, who has changed his mind, out of hell, He can. Why would a loving, forgiving God not?

Does hell last forever for a person who chooses not to leave? Sure, why not? I think we are all on the same page on that one. I just don’t see why it would happen. I can’t think of why someone would make the choice if they are fully aware.

 

[Amandil]

Okay. So, if a person chooses in ignorance, does God simply say, “well, its his problem, he didn’t know, but he should have known.”? The answer to that question is based in relationship and experience of God.

1)You have to have begun a relationship before you can claim something is based upon a relationship or experience of God.

You seem to think that God has some explicit need to save us as if He’s lacking or somehow less loving if He doesn’t save everyone.

God offers this gift, this “pearl of great price”, and He says “In this pearl is the fullness of all your life and all your heart’s desires, take it,or leave it, it’s up to you.”

As with my quote from Lewis, there comes a point when ignorance becomes willful and an excuse for intellectual laziness and cowardice.

This is a circle you can’t escape from OneSheep, no matter how you think you can wiggle out of it.

All opinions. None “taught” by the Church, but all acceptable and all based on individual relationships with Abba.

You’re the one who brought up your priest friend as some sort of appeal to authority. Now that I do the same you come back with the “all opinions” retort.

Not surprised.

Those writings are opinions also, based on individual perceptions of/relationships with the divine. Plenty of room for everyone!

Not when those opinions run contrary to Church teaching, then they are by definition heterodoxy.

Those statements of want are statements in ignorance, are they not? Or, blindness can be a factor. Desire blinds us. Blindness is generally not voluntary. When a person actually wants to be blind, they do so in ignorance, right?

Willful blindness is no different than willful ignorance. You choose to be blind just as you choose to be ignorant.

For the aware person, no demand is necessary. When God is seen as the source of Love and all that is, even the things that they “want”, then the human response is gratitude. Does God do all He can to make a person aware?

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Blame God because people refuse Him? You can’t be serious.

In this life, everything is “cloudy” as so many say. Setting aside those wants is the means to freedom, freedom from the slavery of our own nature. It takes awareness to learn this, and many of us have to go through the school-of-hard-knocks to learn this, right? We are that dumb. I am that dumb. Some things I have to learn the hard way. So, a person who does not have enough life to learn the hard way, does God say, “tough luck”? Again, the answer to that would be a matter of opinion/relationship.

This passage is pointless because there’s no possible way you could know either-or.

How about we stick to what we know instead of speculating about what we don’t?

Allow me to provide more context. He elaborated as such (paraphrased): A person who sees Jesus as vengeful and therefore follows Jesus’ example of “vengefulness” will not experience salvation in this life to a large degree.

What does this even mean? What are you talking about?

Salvation is like being pregnant, you either have it or you don’t. There aren’t “degrees of salvation.”

The person would go through his life hanging onto grudges and trying to get even with people. The person is better off rejecting such following. He has a misperception of the ways of Christ, and he rejects the false image. He is better of not following the misperceived Christ, and simply try to live a moral life. Can you see that fire-and-brimstone televangelism may give the wrong impression of what it means to be a follower of Christ? Forgiveness is called for, not vengeance.

Better off not following Jesus than correcting his ignorance by not listening to what other people tell him and instead doing his own searching?

If that’s “better”, well, that says it all.

Good point. “Choice” can be considered a condition. God as I know Him accepts people’s aware choices without condition, I guess that sort of specifies it better. I don’t view God as ever letting anyone make a choice to be away from Him forever unless the person is fully aware of the choices. I think that calls for more clarification, but I will let you ask the questions. Feel free to disagree!

No, God accepts every choice, not just the “aware” ones.

And again, just as free will is a necessary cause of our salvation(though not a sufficient cause being as that grace is required), the same goes for the loss of salvation.

All that is necessary to lose heaven is to abuse our free will and commit mortal sin without repentance.

And the only “full knowledge” necessary is that the sin is in fact mortal(as in that the object chosen violates the natural law-the ten commandments) and that we chose it freely.

 

[thinkandmull]

Vatican I taught that dogma must be believed in the way it was proclaimed. It is Church dogma that damnation is eternal. The Epistle of Jude states that there are people in hell, who choose a lesser “good” over Good in life. Whether the Bible description of fire is metaphorical I guess is debatable. I think its dogma that all souls are immortal; anyone? So the eternal punishment can’t be annihilation by fire for eternity

 

[arte]

Re: Judaism - I don’t see it as “our parent religion”. It is a belief in the presence of the Word in history which leaves out its purpose and culmination. There is no magisterium in Judaism; they value discussion and the joke is that putting two Jews together to argue a point, you will come up with three opinions. Of many Jewish friends, I believe most hope for an after-life, but I would say the general view is that this is it. Except for a handful, they are predominantly Ashkenazi, having lost most of their families in the holocaust; I have never heard anyone speak of meeting Hitler in heaven.

BTW: Satan is real regardless of how your logic, apparently informed by the nonsense of modern secular society, distorts scripture.

Sorry for the lateness of my reply Aloysium. I believe that Judaism is our parent religion.
From Wikipedia
Jewish Christians, also Judeo-Christians, were the original members of the Jewish movement that later became Christianity. As Christianity grew throughout the Gentile World, Christians diverged from their Jewish and Jerusalem roots.
From Catholic Answers
Torah comes from the Hebrew word for “law” and refers to the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—also known as the Pentateuch. When we as Catholics refer to the Old Testament, we are referring to all forty-six books of the Bible written before Christ, including the first five that the Jews call the Torah.
Other internet sources
The Tanakh (which contains the Torah) is the “Jewish Bible” and is what the Christian Old Testament is translated from with some slight differences. However, these slight differences in translation can change entire meanings. The order of the books in the Christian Old Testament is also different from that in the Tanakh.
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion.
From Wikipedia
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. The largest Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
From the Christianity Website.
It is also true that three of the world’s major religions – Christianity, Judaism (Jews) and Islam (Muslims) – all worship the God whom Abraham worshiped approximately four thousand years ago.
From the above, you can see that Christianity (and Islam) came from Judaism. The Old Testament part of our Bible is the translation from Hebrew into Greek of the Jewish Tanakh. Jesus was a Jew and our roots as a religion are from Judaism. Christians worship the same God as the Jews. There are obviously 2 big differences. The Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God and they do not believe in the Holy Spirit.
As for an afterlife, I must admit from what I read there was confusion within Judaism. I found quotes from some websites: Judaism 101: Belief in the eventual resurrection of the dead is a fundamental belief of traditional Judaism. Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She’ol or by other names.The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months. Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse. Perhaps this is why your Jewish friends won’t meet Adolf Hitler in Heaven?
About.com Judaism
For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. “The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months,” states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months.
I believe in Satan but the belief that “he/it” is a fallen angel is illogical to me. Again, in Judaism, they do not believe in Satan either. They believe that the human mind is capable of creating evil itself. My parish priest said the same as well that the human mind is capable of creating the most evil of actions. As for this part of your last sentence: “apparently informed by the nonsense of modern secular society, distorts scripture”. I am really pleased that modern secular society questions and challenges scripture. I would not call it “nonsense”, I would call it “common sense”.

 

[rinnie]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.

LOVE!

God knows a heart and if a person will ever repent or will never repent. God is perfect. If a person is sent to hell, it is by their own actions, and mind and they will never change.

If there were a chance they would repent God would know this do you not agree? Our God is merciful and gives us all every chance possible. If someone chooses hell, its final and what they wanted.

Its hard to believe how someone could not want God. But then again its hard to believe some evil people do, and love to do, and continue to do, without ever caring about others.But unfortunately the devil exists and many other demons are his followers.

Look at the world today, and its getting worse. How many people are truly sorry for what they do, and how many are truly sorry they got caught.

Reality sucks, and reality is there are demons on this earth that will never change. And this is their world, but they will not have the good world in the next.

 

[glendab]

Hello Amandil.

There is no “might,” God does have a say in this.

He says, “If you will not have it My way, then have it your way.”

Every person who winds up in hell all sing the same tune:

“I Did It My Way!”

:doh2:

Very good!

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

Abba, Father, open the eyes of Adolf Hitler
Show him the love and goodness of our Jewish brethren
Show him the love and goodness of our disabled brethren
Show him the love and goodness of all persecuted, Catholics, communists, Roma, people of color, and people who defied him.
Show him your way, Father.
And then, when he sees, find a place for him in heaven.
And Father, give me the ability to forgive all people I hold something against.

Amen

Cute prayer. Two question though. Do you really think that Hitler’s outcome will be effected by such prayer’s, that it is possible to remove one person from Hell by prayers?

Second question; in your list of persons Hitler is supposed to love you list “Roma.” Why is this?

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Estel.

Ok, so I feel bad about one particular comment that I made that was over defensive and with misplaced zeal, and I guess it caused a bit of an argument. I’m sorry. And I also do appreciate the defense I received about my view point. I appreciate that very much. (Perhaps I am just over sensitive about these things, but I felt like typing that anyway). I apologize for putting my own interests first and being angry without good cause. Thank you.

Getting back to the topic, I would still hold that it is possible for God to relent, since anything is possible with God. I found this, which expresses a type of lessening of punishment that can be possible.

" (a) There is a certain mitigation of the pains of Hell that a Catholic may allow.

First there is the so-called mitigation taught by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Sales.

St Thomas says: “In the damnation of the lost, there is evidence of mercy, not indeed by way of total relaxation, but by way of partial alleviation, in so far as the punishment is less than is deserved” (Sum. Theol. Ia. q. 21, art. 4, ad. 1).

According to St. Francis de Sales: “these sufferings are much less than the sins and crimes for which they are inflicted” (Treatise of the Love of God, bk. IX, ch. I).

St. Thomas is of opinion that God will accord this alleviation of their torments to those especially who during life were themselves merciful to others (Suppl. q. 99, art. 5, ad. 1).

(b) Some theologians, following Duns Scotus, hold that venial sins, and mortal sins of which the guilt has been forgiven, will not be punished in Hell forever, because of themselves they are not deserving of eternal punishment.

Hence a day will come when, the temporal punishment due to be undergone for these sins having been completed, the damned will experience a mitiga*tion of their sufferings, proportionate to the gravity of those sins for which they were condemned to suffer for a time. However improbable this opinion may seem to be, it may be held without offence to the faith, for it does not imply any mitigation of the sufferings inflicted for those sins which, of themselves, are deserving of eternal punishment."

I would take it a step further, saying that even the worst sin is not infinite, (but still it is based on God’s mercy alone that) therefore I hope there will come a time where the pains of hell will cease. I base this off scripture that supports it ( which cannot be broken), Catholic teaching that leaves such things about “eternity” somewhat ambiguous, and the fact God will never stop loving. But, who the hell knows all about hell, except God himself.

Can you please provide links to these quotations? I’m having trouble locating them without them and it is too time consuming. You help would be nice. Thanks.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

(b) Some theologians, following Duns Scotus, hold that venial sins, and mortal sins of which the guilt has been forgiven, will not be punished in Hell forever, because of themselves they are not deserving of eternal punishment.

Hence a day will come when, the temporal punishment due to be undergone for these sins having been completed, the damned will experience a mitiga*tion of their sufferings, proportionate to the gravity of those sins for which they were condemned to suffer for a time. However improbable this opinion may seem to be, it may be held without offence to the faith, for it does not imply any mitigation of the sufferings inflicted for those sins which, of themselves, are deserving of eternal punishment."

I would take it a step further, saying that even the worst sin is not infinite, (but still it is based on God’s mercy alone that) therefore I hope there will come a time where the pains of hell will cease. I base this off scripture that supports it ( which cannot be broken), Catholic teaching that leaves such things about “eternity” somewhat ambiguous, and the fact God will never stop loving. But, who the hell knows all about hell, except God himself.

You’re confusing Hell and Purgatory here. We all believe that sins that have been forgiven, whether venial or mortal, will eventually be fully mitigated. All those who go to Purgatory will pass into Heaven at some point, when appropriate satisfaction has been made and they have been purified as if through fire. The last part of Scotus’ statement, if that is who you are quoting (please provide links for verification in future) says that “it does not imply **any mitigation **of the sufferings inflicted for those sins which, of themselves, are deserving of eternal punishment.” There ya have it - sins deserving of eternal punishment that will not be mitigated. Hell vs. Purgatory. Pretty simple if you ask me. Thank God for Purgatory! I’m gonna see Heaven!

Glenda

 

[RaphaelJ]

God cannot relent on the eternal punishment of hell because of the following philosophical reasons:

1. When the soul transitions from time to eternity, then there is no way to relent on anything. Just as the souls of the blessed can never be anything but eternally happy, so the souls in hell can be nothing but eternally anguished.
2. The correct understanding of hell is not that God sends us there but that we send ourselves there and God is just carrying out our will. How? When we choose mortal sin deliberately and do not repent then we are saying that we prefer ourselves to God. This is disastrous because our souls are gravitated toward what is good and the ultimate good is God. When we choose ourselves rather than God then we voluntarily give up the ultimate Good and that is anguish.

 

[glendab]

Hmmm. Love transcending all doctrines is a heresy? On what basis?

And I am still waiting for your answer to the question, “Why would you never hope for anyone in hell to have a way out?”

I think the answer is very, very pertinent to this thread! Give it a shot, Glenda!

Hello OneSheep.

I’ve already answered this question in abundance on this thread: Hell is an eternity long. No way out. No second chances. No second personal judgment. No if, ands, or but about it. And no one gets out. To say otherwise is heresy. You ask why I’d never hope for this to change? Because God is Eternal as are His teachings and God is unchanging. If some suddenly tried to teach against that which is already revealed to us as Truth, then they’d be trying to change that which is eternal. Pretty clear. I do not have any false hopes about Church teaching because I believe all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Flase hopes area byproduct of false beliefs. Once the partial has passed away, the eternal is revealed. Half a loaf isn’t better than none. A little yeast leavens the whole loaf.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Hasantas.

According to İslam:

There are two kinds of people in Hell. One of them is faithful peoples but those commited sins so they must pay for their sins in Hell ofcourse if God does not forgive them. After paying they will go Heavens.

The second group who will stay in Hell eternaly are who reject God. These people will stay in Hell eternally because of rejection of God. They will suffer for their sins. They will never get out off Hell. There are some Hadiths mean that after suffering for sins they will become familiar and relent with fire punisment. But yet they will never break off Hell.

Thank you for pointing out the similarities between what we Christians hold to be true about the afterlife and what you hold to be true. It is nice to compare the two accurately. Your first kind of person would compare in our view to those who pass through Purgatory into Heaven. Your second kind is very close to how we see Hell here however, there are those who refute this Catholic teaching here as you can see. The authentic Catholic teaching is that Hell is eternal without end or lessening of suffering. But sadly, there are those Catholics who lack the fullness of understanding and assent to the teachings that being Catholic requires. We are trying to work it out.

Thanks for adding Islamic flavor to the discussion. It is nice. Hope you do so elsewhere.

Glenda

 

[RaphaelJ]

If I may join in the discussion with Onesheep,

Philosophically, the eternity of hell is inevitable. We have a body and we are bound by time so we can change our choices and decisions. But when our soul passes from time to eternity, our last choice is our eternal choice. And since we pass from time to timelessness, then there is no time to change anything.

 

[glendab]

Good point. “Choice” can be considered a condition. God as I know Him accepts people’s aware choices without condition, I guess that sort of specifies it better. I don’t view God as ever letting anyone make a choice to be away from Him forever unless the person is fully aware of the choices. I think that calls for more clarification, but I will let you ask the questions. Feel free to disagree!

If the God you know accepts people’s aware choices, then what happened to invincible ignorance? You have negated free will in this statement: “I don’t view God as ever letting anyone make a choice to be away from Him forever…” For whatever reason you specify after that opener, you are nullifying a persons free will. God never intrudes on free will, even if that will is in a person who doesn’t understand anything at all about God. Their will is still free. God doesn’t force Himself on anyone. I think your idea of a higher power and his or her attributes can vary. However, Christ’s don’t vary at all.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Mark.

Statements such as Jesus never said that hell lasted forever are troubling. It’s the reason that glendab is so adamant about this with her posts, and it’s no wonder. Hell is forever…and ever and ever and ever!

Peace, Mark

Beautiful post but can you please provide the links to the various quotations you use. it would be most helpful both for those of us who support them as well as those who oppose. Those who oppose could go there and perhaps have their poor hearts opened.

Glenda