Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

Mark121359

You quoted:

“Quote:
‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort”

Do you think that it it only the “elect” that are saved?

Have you ever given any thought that the “elect” are chosen to do a “specific job” for God as opposed to the “elect” being the ones and the only ones chosen to be saved?

Lots of people have opinions but ultimately God has the ultimate opinion.

Eternity and everlasting are not the same word nor do they have the same meaning.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God cannot relent on the eternal punishment of hell because of the following philosophical reasons:

1. When the soul transitions from time to eternity, then there is no way to relent on anything. Just as the souls of the blessed can never be anything but eternally happy, so the souls in hell can be nothing but eternally anguished.
2. The correct understanding of hell is not that God sends us there but that we send ourselves there and God is just carrying out our will. How? When we choose mortal sin deliberately and do not repent then we are saying that we prefer ourselves to God. This is disastrous because our souls are gravitated toward what is good and the ultimate good is God. When we choose ourselves rather than God then we voluntarily give up the ultimate Good and that is anguish.

Does God know about these “philosophical reasons” and does God know that He is bound by these “philosophical reasons”?

You speak of “When the soul transitions from time to eternity”, do you know whether or not the soul transitions back to time?

Will eternity last forever or will time swallow up eternity?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello OneSheep.

I’ve already answered this question in abundance on this thread: Hell is an eternity long. No way out. No second chances. No second personal judgment. No if, ands, or but about it. And no one gets out. To say otherwise is heresy. You ask why I’d never hope for this to change? Because God is Eternal as are His teachings and God is unchanging. If some suddenly tried to teach against that which is already revealed to us as Truth, then they’d be trying to change that which is eternal. Pretty clear. I do not have any false hopes about Church teaching because I believe all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Flase hopes area byproduct of false beliefs. Once the partial has passed away, the eternal is revealed. Half a loaf isn’t better than none. A little yeast leavens the whole loaf.

Glenda

“A little yeast leavens the whole loaf.”

A little yeast (cleansing power of God-Incarnate’s work on the cross) leavens the whole loaf (humanity).

 

[Tom_Baum]

I get it, I think. It is not that you would never hope that someone not be allowed out of hell. At issue is that Church doctrine remain unchanged. You are thinking that if one hopes someone is allowed out of hell, then Church doctrine is being contested or violated.

I see things a bit differently. Do you remember the saying (paraphrased) “It is not that people are there for the law, but the law is there for the people?” The way I see it, Glenda, people come first, not doctrine. Doctrine, like law, is for people. If there is something in doctrine that inhibits our own efforts to love and care for one another, including allowing someone out of hell, then there is a problem with the doctrine.

That said, I have great respect for your dedication to doctrine. Doctrine provides stability. To me, doctrine is inspired by God, but doctrine is not God.

And something that Jesus said, “Man was not made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man”.

 

[oldcelt]

Does God know about these “philosophical reasons” and does God know that He is bound by these “philosophical reasons”?

You speak of “When the soul transitions from time to eternity”, do you know whether or not the soul transitions back to time?

Will eternity last forever or will time swallow up eternity?

One of the weak points of philosophy, as I see it, seems to be that some philosophers have a tendency to take themselves far too seriously. The notion of our condemning ourselves to eternal damnation is quite different from what I was taught as a young Catholic. In those days, God did the judging and the sentencing.

Your question about God’s knowledge of these philosophical principles strikes at the very heart of the matter. Correct me if I misunderstand where you are headed with this…that an omnipotent deity can do as he pleases, regardless of any philosophical musings about time and space.

I enjoy philosophy as exercise for the mind, but I recognize that any and all of the conclusions, including my own (maybe especially) could be dead wrong.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Could you expound on this? Omniscience does not contradict free will as long as we ourselves are the ones who makes our choice. In some sense, free will can mean choosing to follow God’s plan or to defy it. Either way, God does not force the person to choose what He wills. But, being omniscient, it’s possible He would know the free choices of all people in all time and somehow work that into His plan.

And since God KNEW that some would never repent this side of breath, even before God created them, it could be that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, would include whatever was necessary for God’s Will to come to Fruition and as it is stated, "It is God’s Will that ALL BE SAVED.

As far as “But, being omniscient, it’s possible He would know the free choices of all people in all time and somehow work that into His plan”.

I would say that it is not that it would be possible that God would know but that it would be impossible for God to NOT know if God, truly, is OMNISCIENT.

 

[OneSheep]

A distinction without a difference. It would be absurd for the God of the universe to do what He did without love and for the fact that He wants our highest good for any lesser reason. The “take it or leave it” is simply my way of emphasizing the freedom involved in the offering.

So, you are agreeing that God says “Please take it, I love you and I want you with me.”?

I gave you my own case and you were rather silent on the matter.

Well, we started on it and it kinda ended. I found a new starting point and posted it on the K&W thread. We can give it another try.

Willful ignorance is in fact willed. You are choosing to ignore something based upon the concern that upon knowing what you are trying to ignore you would then be compelled by that knowledge to change your behavior. You already know that at the very least you have an obligation to know, to not remain ignorant.

How do you know what you have an obligation to know?

Again, everyone knows the natural law. That’s the whole point of Romans 1 & 2 is to demonstrate that all men, both the Jews who received the law from God and the Gentiles who have the law “written on their hearts”, so no one has any excuse. "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Christ has come, so the “times of ignorance” have long since been over in regards to the moral law."/B]

The “law written in our hearts” is the guidance of Love itself. It is when charity and good deeds come from loving one another and not from a list of rules. Here is a key question: If there were no rules, would I still do good for those around me and not hurt people? If my answer is yes, then the law is written in my heart, I have taken ownership of the rules at the deepest level. If my answer is no, then that has not taken place, the rule appeals to “fear” or “being good” but not to empathic response. Formation of the conscience is a life-long process, and it is not an “all-at-once” occurrence. Some rules we take ownership of, and some we do not. It is our mandate, though, to follow the rules whether we understand them or not, whether or not they have been “written into our hearts.” Now, I am not saying that the laws are not always written in the heart. What I am saying is that the law is in there, but we have to experience life in order to have access to it.

Given your interpretation of the Catechism I have to wonder if you’re reading it according to his thought. In any case if you’re going to cite him, either quote it or don’t bother bringing it up. You can’t just use to Cardinal Ratzinger’s name as another appeal to authority, turn around and just claim that his words are in my terms “heterodoxy” while conveniently leaving them out!

Or at the least cite the chapter or page so I can have a point of reference.

Stay tuned for my next thread on Introduction to Christianity. In the mean time, grab the chips and the soda!

Nancy Pelosi, her profession of being “Catholic” and her position on abortion.

Okay, let us discuss politicians in general who support abortion. We are seeing what type of blindness or ignorance is involved: “willful” or “automatic”. To do this, let us try to determine why politician “X” believes in funding abortions.

Why does X believe in funding abortions?

Salvation starts when we choose to accept it. Just as it ends when we choose to reject it.

Free of the burden of temptation or concupiscence? No. But you can still possess salvation while carrying that burden. That is not “degrees of salvation” but degrees of sanctity

.

A person who “accepts” salvation, but continues to sin, hang onto grudges, and suffers addiction is still a slave, even if they are “accepting”. So, “acceptance” is important and plays a role, but the “salvation” part comes with with discipline and spiritual growth and development. I don’t think we are far off on this one. We are using “salvation” in different ways. Like I said, the priest told us that “eternal life” starts now. “Eternal life” in the context meant a “good life” a “joyful life”, which is what life with Christ manifests. It is not an on/off switch though, in this use of the word. You are using a slightly different definition, I think.

Okay, we can call it degrees of sanctity. But to me, sanctification, the holiness that comes from awareness, is in itself salvific. I don’t think we need to hammer out these definitions anymore. I see where your definitions are, and they are understandable.

You know

that you have an obligation to know, not remain like an ostrich with your head in the sand.

How do you know that you have an obligation to know? We can say, “because the authority says so.” Does the person know that the authority is The Authority? How?

(cont’d)

 

[Tom_Baum]

One of the weak points of philosophy, as I see it, seems to be that some philosophers have a tendency to take themselves far too seriously. The notion of our condemning ourselves to eternal damnation is quite different from what I was taught as a young Catholic. In those days, God did the judging and the sentencing.

Your question about God’s knowledge of these philosophical principles strikes at the very heart of the matter. Correct me if I misunderstand where you are headed with this…that an omnipotent deity can do as he pleases, regardless of any philosophical musings about time and space.

I enjoy philosophy as exercise for the mind, but I recognize that any and all of the conclusions, including my own (maybe especially) could be dead wrong.

One of the ways that I put it is, God is God and I ain’t and to expand it, God is God and we ain’t, so I don’t think that you misunderstood me.

I happen to believe that God did NOT ask us to be better, as in more forgiving and more merciful, than God.

Jesus asked us to go beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” which means that the punishment should NOT exceed the wrongdoing.

Eternal punishment, as in for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …, for temporal wrongdoing, sounds to me to go way beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

I write it that way, “for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …,”, for the simple reason that some do not seem to either grasp or think about just what “forever” means.

Meeting God the Father and coming to the realization that the statement “God Is Love” is quite literal makes me look at my beliefs in quite a different light.

 

[OneSheep]

Amandil:

This is a father’s wisdom:

I tell them “You do “X” and “Y” will happen to you. If that’s what you want, have at it.”

They can either see the wisdom and not do it, or they can think that they know more than me and do what they want anyway. And when they come back after reaping the consequences of their stupid decision to do it their way, they realize that humility is the greater part of wisdom.

FYI: this is precisely the way God does it.

Okay, so we are talking about “eternal punishment” so the “and when they come back” part goes away, at least in the standard interpretation.

So, would you allow one of your children to make this very bad choice, the choice to live in heaven or hell, without knowing why it is a bad choice? Would you say, “Don’t do it because I said so.” and leave it at that, or would you do all you can to make your child aware of the consequences? And I mean really aware, deeply aware, profoundly aware.

What if it were the choice for your child deciding to join an aggressor in fighting an unjust war, in which many, many innocent lives are to be lost by his hand? There is so much loss to occur, and these losses cannot simply be undone. Wouldn’t you go further than “You do “X” and “Y” will happen to you. If that’s what you want, have at it.”?

Would you not do all you can to show the value of the innocents involved? Would you not plead, beg, bribe, do everything you can, to stop the choice? My child would only be able to go kicking and screaming against me to such a war.

You keep missing the point. You keep thinking that a person who has a will bent on sin will listen to reason. “Oh, if they just know the right thing to do, they will choose to do it.” The entire history of Israel in the Old Testament proves this assumption wrong. Israel knew God’s commandments better than anyone, yet at every turn they disobeyed God and did what they wanted to their own destruction.

Just as with people bent on drug and alcohol addiction, they know that what they’re doing is sinful, they know it’s wrong, they know it’s destroying them; and they simply don’t care, or they think that they’re at the point where the effort to overcome their sinfulness is too difficult and thus not worth the effort.

Knowing is more than just listening to reason, knowing involves incorporation of the reason, seeing why the commandment is important. We can agree to disagree on this.

Yes, some people give up on trying to change their ways. This is hopelessness. What is God’s response to hopelessness? More demands? More imperatives? Won’t help. People have to suffer, then comes the light. Then they will listen.

When people do not care what happens to them, how do we influence them to care? Through love. And through love, people listen. Of this, I am convinced.

 

[OneSheep]

And something that Jesus said, “Man was not made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man”.

That was it, thanks, I paraphrased. Jesus was healing people, and the pharisees chastised Him for breaking the rules.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello OneSheep.
So, you’re evading the direct question by your first answer in praying as if you already know that God will respond to you. That would mean you’re a Saint because God’s will can be altered by you. To me that seems contrary to the virtue of humility. I pray differently.

I’m sorry, feel free to ask the direct question.

Uh, saints can alter God’s will?

Second statement: “for as far as we know…” I am NOT part of that “we,” not by a long shot. “…there may be no one in Hell” You still won’t give up the error, will you. Well, you are persistent, that’s for sure.

You can check post 417. He added his “100% chance” opinion. Is this yours too? Are you convinced that someone is in hell?

Third part, I’ve already answered this question. Prayers for the damned in Hell are useless and a waste of breath. No one escapes Hell, no one. Period end of answer. Now, OneSheep I know you don’t believe this, but it is Catholic Doctrine and must be believed by those who give their “Amen” on Sunday when they’ve recited the Creed publicly, for that is the Church’s formal way of asking submission and you really do swear to God at that moment that you believe all the Church believes and teaches and that is why it comes BEFORE the 2nd part of the Mass, the Eucharist, because ONLY those who can give that assent are worthy to receive. If you don’t believe all the Catholic Church believes and teaches and you say you do at that moment, you are also guilty of swearing a false oath as well as the sins against faith that disbelief in those things entails IF you decide you have your own interpretation of them and then simply sit down and act as if there is nothing wrong. Then to compound your troubles with God, you then proceed to go up the aisle during the distribution of Communion, and receive. Doomed.

There is a cute little Sister I know, from Italy. She points her hand gun-style and says, “When I point at someone like this, look! There are three fingers pointing back at me.” I love that woman.

Oof, Glenda. Do you hold my opinions against me? And if so, can you forgive me? I am not defying the creed, not in anything I have stated in this forum.

I once heard this cute little quip: A little old lady was sitting alone in the front row of pews in Church one sunny Saturday afternoon and they were having a charismatic happening which brought in a few hundred folks from the neighboring parishes along with some visiting Priests. One young handsome Priest sat down next to the nice little old lady and they smiled at each other. The Priest giving the talk mentioned Hell and then the young handsome Priest leaned over the shoulder of the little old lady and whispered in her ear, “I don’t believe in Hell,” and smiled at her broadly. The little old lady rattled not one little bit, smiled just as broadly back and replied, “You will when you get there.”

It really is THAT important.

I agree with my little old Italian Sister more than your little old lady. Plenty of room for everyone, Glenda. The Church is inclusive. Love is inclusive.

And if it really was THAT important to her, was her smile genuine? Did she immediately want the priest to go there? Was this the voice and smile of caring concern? Was it the smile of sarcastic, “righteous indignation”?

 

[oldcelt]

One of the ways that I put it is, God is God and I ain’t and to expand it, God is God and we ain’t, so I don’t think that you misunderstood me.

I happen to believe that God did NOT ask us to be better, as in more forgiving and more merciful, than God.

Jesus asked us to go beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” which means that the punishment should NOT exceed the wrongdoing.

Eternal punishment, as in for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …, for temporal wrongdoing, sounds to me to go way beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

I write it that way, “for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …,”, for the simple reason that some do not seem to either grasp or think about just what “forever” means.

Meeting God the Father and coming to the realization that the statement “God Is Love” is quite literal makes me look at my beliefs in quite a different light.

That and the term everything…seems to be a disconnect for a few here when those enter the conversation. I don’t know if it is to avoid some inconvenience, or some other rinexplicable cause,

 

[Richca]

One of the ways that I put it is, God is God and I ain’t and to expand it, God is God and we ain’t, so I don’t think that you misunderstood me.

I happen to believe that God did NOT ask us to be better, as in more forgiving and more merciful, than God.

Jesus asked us to go beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” which means that the punishment should NOT exceed the wrongdoing.

Eternal punishment, as in for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …, for temporal wrongdoing, sounds to me to go way beyond the “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

I write it that way, “for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …,”, for the simple reason that some do not seem to either grasp or think about just what “forever” means.

Meeting God the Father and coming to the realization that the statement “God Is Love” is quite literal makes me look at my beliefs in quite a different light.

In executing judgement in both divine and human judgements, it is not requisite for punisment to equal fault in point of duration. For example, a person may murder another person in a moment’s time but be punished with a lifetime of imprisonment or even capital punishment. This sort of punishment represents in a way the eternal punishment of hell.

 

[glendab]

Hello Estel.

Here is where I found these quotes: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/novissimis.htm

Thanks for the link. I knocked on their door and looked around and they are actually a bunch of folks favoring the schismatic group SSPX. Thanks but no thanks. I need a better source. One that is in union with Rome and the actual documents themselves written by those persons you quote as saying them; i.e. if you claim you are quoting St. Thomas Aquinas, find the source in a good Catholic place and link to it from there. Why? Because folks who are in schism with the Church tend by nature to interpret things to others including written sources as how they see things rather than how they actually are. One thing I noticed profusely at that site is none of the documents there provide active links to the documents themselves either. You are simply supposed to take their words for it about what said document or person said. Um, now I’m not the smartest gal on the planet, but if someone is in schism with my Church and they ask me to take their word for much regarding doctrinal purity and Tradition, do you think I’m going to? You figure it out.

Thanks again for the link. (I fell like saying thanks for the warning.) :dts:

Glenda

 

[mjophus]

I just got back from Saturday vigil. The homily our priest gave us was based on a reading from Kings, about God not being in the wind, the earthquake, the fire, but in the barely discernible whisper. That we find God in the depths of our hearts, in each other.

I thought this thread was on an interesting topic, so I tried to read a bit of it - but there’s 29 or so pages. There’s too much wind here.

My contribution: don’t be afraid. Be silent. God is here. If God’s love and mercy shatters all reason, transcends human limitations, in other words, if the damned can repent, then praise God! If they can’t, praise God!

 

[glendab]

Hello Starr(name removed by moderator).

…We have no proof or real idea whether hell is forever or not–though as I said, I was always taught that it was. Yet, I do NOT know anything for sure.

Yes, we do have proof and a very real idea. The Church says that it is so, so then it is so. If you don’t believe this very basic fundamental thing, then how can you entrust your immortal soul to those in the Church? What do you think the Church is selling? Nice ideas and feelings and thoughts and notions?

The Church tells the Truth Who is a Person, Jesus Christ and when she speaks, she speaks at His behest. He is the Holy Spirit Who has remained with us in the Church guiding and building and preserving us for over two thousand years. In all that time, nothing we taught has changed for we are only repeating what we knew before Christ came and what He taught while He was here among us in the Person of Jesus, and His Holy Spirit has continued to guide the Church in all things. We DO know that there is a Hell and it is eternal and in it is greater suffering than you or I could comprehend although a few Saints have told us various things about it to give us a better picture of it.

My mind cannot grasp not knowing these things as TRUTH. They just are the TRUTH. Perhaps you should pray for God to firm up your faith so you too will KNOW that we really DO KNOW these things, without any doubt whatsoever.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello RaphaelJ.

Technically, the Church hasn’t condemned anyone to hell. Not Jezebel, Ahab, Judas Iscariot or Hitler or anyone. So, there may be no one in hell. Of course, this seems to be a very, very extreme optimism because we assume that these people truly repented before death.However, a look at all of the evil in the world is enough to convince me that there is an almost 100% chance that there are people in hell. I pray that none of us join them.

What would you say to the Fatima accounts when our Lady showed the three children Hell and told them they’d seen Hell and the souls of the damned in torment there? I know it is a private revelation, but it has been authenticated by the Church and is very well accepted by most. If no one is there, why did the Queen of Heaven tell those three children they’d seen the damned in Hell? Surely you wouldn’t say the Blessed Virgin is wrong?

Here is a bit about it:

** The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:**
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Initial_apparitions

Glenda

 

[Rodb]

God gave all beings to Christ THAT HE MIGHT SAVE THEM. “Thou hast given him power over all flesh, THAT HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM.” (John 17:2) This plainly evinces, that it was God’s design, in giving Christ dominion over all flesh, that they should all enjoy eternal life.

1. It is CERTAIN that Christ will save all that the Father hath given him. “All that the Father giveth me, SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NOWISE CAST OUT.” (John 6:37) These three propositions are irrefragable evidence of the final happiness of all men. 1st, God hath given all things to Christ. 2nd, all that God hath given him shall come to him. 3rd, him that cometh he will in nowise cast out. All are given; all shall come; and none shall be cast out. What is the unavoidable conclusion?

 

[Rodb]

All the nations you have made shall come
to bow before you, Lord,
and give honor to your name.
10 For you are great and do wondrous deeds;
and you alone are God. (Pslm-86)

Since we know God respects free will and would never force anyone to give honor to His name, if you do not think All will eventually be saved, how do you explain this scripture?

 

[Amandil]

All the nations you have made shall come
to bow before you, Lord,
and give honor to your name.
10 For you are great and do wondrous deeds;
and you alone are God. (Pslm-86)

Since we know God respects free will and would never force anyone to give honor to His name, if you do not think All will eventually be saved, how do you explain this scripture?

“All nations…shall bow down before you” does not mean “absolutely everyone will be saved.”

When a person who committed a heinous crime, which violated the king’s peace as well as dishonoring the king’s name, once he was captured and brought before the king, he was made to bow before the king and receive judgment. The judgment he received was just and thus the king’s honor and peace would be thus restored .

Just as much as those who are saved by God and granted entrance into His kingdom give honor to God’s name and stand as proof of His wondrous deeds, even those condemned to hell will also give honor to God’s name by standing as proof that God’s judgments are just and that His will in all things is eternal and absolute.