Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

In executing judgement in both divine and human judgements, it is not requisite for punisment to equal fault in point of duration. For example, a person may murder another person in a moment’s time but be punished with a lifetime of imprisonment or even capital punishment. This sort of punishment represents in a way the eternal punishment of hell.

Seeing as “a lifetime of imprisonment” ends with one’s death and “capital punishment” also ends with one’s death, how can a “punishment that ends with one’s death either by the state or by natural causes” represent “in a way the eternal punishment of hell” which is a "“punishment that has no end whatsoever”, according to many?

I can not see how anyone can possibly write a statement such as yours above.

Seems to me that when I wrote, “I write it that way, “for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …,”, for the simple reason that some do not seem to either grasp or think about just what “forever” means.”, it was directed it seems, at many people and you are, most definitely, one of them.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . , “for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and …,”, for the simple reason that some do not seem to either grasp or think about just what “forever” means.", it was directed it seems, at many people and you are, most definitely, one of them.

God is eternal, the reality of the foulness that is sin, unrepented is known forever and ever and ever and ever and ever . . . Are you suggesting God is not eternal or that a person’s life can be deleted from His omniscience? Sin is sin, He either takes it from the penitent and upon Himself, or it remains to define the existence of the unrepentant.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello RaphaelJ.

What would you say to the Fatima accounts when our Lady showed the three children Hell and told them they’d seen Hell and the souls of the damned in torment there? I know it is a private revelation, but it has been authenticated by the Church and is very well accepted by most. If no one is there, why did the Queen of Heaven tell those three children they’d seen the damned in Hell? Surely you wouldn’t say the Blessed Virgin is wrong?

Here is a bit about it:

** The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:**
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Initial_apparitions

Glenda

Interesting statement and prayer in the link that you provided:

Lúcia also said that she heard Mary ask for these words to be added to the Rosary after the Gloria Patri prayer: “O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need.”

“Lead all souls to heaven”, so it seems as if Mary is trying to tell us something thru Lucia.

As far as “save us from the fires of hell”, it doesn’t say “keep us from the fires of hell” but it says, “save us from the fires of hell”.

And in the “Lead all souls to heaven”, it doesn’t say just that but it adds “especially those in most need” to say, “Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”.

Maybe we should “ponder” what Mary asked of Lucia concerning this statement and prayer.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’m not sure why Catholics here are debating whether the punishment of the damned is eternal or not. The Church has spoken de fide on this issue, and there is no room for contrary philosophical speculation on the matter:

He will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and will render to the reprobate and to the elect according to their works. Who all shall rise with their own bodies which they now have that they may receive according to their merits, whether good or bad, the latter eternal punishment with the devil, the former eternal glory with Christ. Lateran IV Council, Canon 1.

Whether any human being ultimately chooses eternal separation from God is another issue, but the question of whether the punishments of hell are eternal is not up for debate.

Does “eternal” and “everlasting” mean the same thing?

Aren’t eternity and time two different things?

 

[Tom_Baum]

God is eternal, the reality of the foulness that is sin, unrepented is known forever and ever and ever and ever and ever . . . Are you suggesting God is not eternal or that a person’s life can be deleted from His omniscience? Sin is sin, He either takes it from the penitent and upon Himself, or it remains to define the existence of the unrepentant.

As far as “Sin is sin, He either takes it from the penitent and upon Himself, or it remains to define the existence of the unrepentant.”.

Doesn’t the Church teach that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity upon Himself on the cross?

 

[bisco]

that’s taking things out of context. you forgot, ‘confession and repentance’.

 

[tdgesq]

Does “eternal” and “everlasting” mean the same thing?

Aren’t eternity and time two different things?

It depends on who you ask. The classical position of Thomas Aquinas is that it is a state of timelessness - an unchanging state of being. It would not be eternity under this definition if the state of the damned changed to something else. If you accept eternity as infinite time, you run into a similar problem. We can’t reconcile an infinite period of temporal punishment with there being some point of non-punishment.

The larger problem to me is that the beatific vision is also defined by the Church as eternal. If eternity doesn’t mean “forever,” then it seems it could be applied to the souls in heaven as well.

Btw, I don’t charge any Catholic here with having a soft head or having the intention necessary to qualify as a heretic. I can’t see into peoples hearts, and I don’t have the authority to pass judgment on material heresy. All I can say is that the Church has taught definitively on the issue of the eternity of the punishments of hell.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not sure why Catholics here are debating whether the punishment of the damned is eternal or not. The Church has spoken de fide on this issue, and there is no room for contrary philosophical speculation on the matter:

He will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and will render to the reprobate and to the elect according to their works. Who all shall rise with their own bodies which they now have that they may receive according to their merits, whether good or bad, the latter eternal punishment with the devil, the former eternal glory with Christ. Lateran IV Council, Canon 1.

Whether any human being ultimately chooses eternal separation from God is another issue, but the question of whether the punishments of hell are eternal is not up for debate.

Yes, perhaps “debate” is too strong a word.

The underlying question is, “How do I make sense of an eternal hell in the context of knowing that God loves and forgives every individual unconditionally?”, that He “carved us on the palm of His hand?”.

I see this thread as an investigation as to how to make sense of it all.

1. A person could just say “It just makes no sense, I am going to leave it at that. I don’t understand everything, and I should give up trying to.”
2. A person could redefine what hell is.
3. A person could conceive of a God who lets people out.
4. A person could weigh an infinite number of other options, including combinations of the above.

In any case, there will always be those on the periphery of Christianity who, if they know through introspection that love is unconditional, will reject Christianity altogether because God is depicted as less loving than they are. No parent would subject his own child to “everlasting punishment” unless the parent refused to forgive, and forgiveness is a key aspect of our faith.

So, it is definitely a discussion worth having, and the standard Theology, IMO, falls a bit short on ironing out the contradictions.

And I thank you very much for the respect in your posts. You are stating a position without condemning the other. We needed your voice here.

 

[Tom_Baum]

that’s taking things out of context. you forgot, ‘confession and repentance’.

I don’t know if you were speaking to me or not but I asked a simple question which was, “Doesn’t the Church teach that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity upon Himself on the cross?”

This question needs no “context”, it is answerable with either a yes, a no or a I don"t know.

If you were speaking to me, do you wish to answer it?

 

[Tom_Baum]

It depends on who you ask. The classical position of Thomas Aquinas is that it is a state of timelessness - an unchanging state of being. It would not be eternity under this definition if the state of the damned changed to something else. If you accept eternity as infinite time, you run into a similar problem. We can’t reconcile an infinite period of temporal punishment with there being some point of non-punishment.

The larger problem to me is that the beatific vision is also defined by the Church as eternal. If eternity doesn’t mean “forever,” then it seems it could be applied to the souls in heaven as well.

Btw, I don’t charge any Catholic here with having a soft head or having the intention necessary to qualify as a heretic. I can’t see into peoples hearts, and I don’t have the authority to pass judgment on material heresy. All I can say is that the Church has taught definitively on the issue of the eternity of the punishments of hell.

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that those that think they know everything, don’t.

As you said, “It depends on who you ask.”

I am not saying what “eternity” is but something that I would throw out there to be pondered is that it could be absolute nothingness with God.

Another thing that could be pondered is, will God “swallow up” eternity with time since time is very much a creation of God.

As far as I am concerned, I think that there are things that are good to “ponder” even if all the pondering in the world will never bring one to know whether it is true or not.

I also happen to believe that sometimes some people try to put God into a “formula” rather than to just accept that there are some things about God that are beyond our understanding.

 

[Rodb]

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 4:10
Notice how it does not say the potential savior of all people. Does this not say that all people will be saved, for how can one be the Savior of all people unless all people are saved.

 

[worldcitizen]

God can do whatever He wants.

 

[davidv]

God can do whatever He wants.

And what He wants never contradicts His nature.

 

[Amandil]

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that those that think they know everything, don’t.

Not only is this rather disingenuous it’s frankly rather peevish on your part.
Tom Baum:

I also happen to believe that sometimes some people try to put God into a “formula” rather than to just accept that there are some things about God that are beyond our understanding.

The problem is that this issue is not beyond our understanding precisely because Dad has already told us through Jesus.

We know hell is eternal because Dad says it is!

We know that hell is “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”- These are Jesus’ own words!

So if you have a problem with hell being eternal, your problem is not with us who you falsely and disingenuously accuse of “knowing everything” or “wanting people to go to hell”, rather your problem is with Dad who said these very things which you object to.

So instead of deriding those of us who are standing up with Dad, Jesus, and the Church’s sound Tradition and authority, who are in fact citing the Lord’s own words, perhaps you should take your concerns up with Dad who said them.

 

[glendab]

Hello Rod.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 4:10
Notice how it does not say the potential savior of all people. Does this not say that all people will be saved, for how can one be the Savior of all people unless all people are saved.

How can God save all people? Truth is He can’t because we humans turn from Him. One way to turn from Him is to deny that the consequences of one’s actions or lack of them can have eternal ramifications that are of a negative variety, i.e. Hell forever. If one passes from this life with a false belief in something taught by the Church, one increases the chances that one will have that outcome greatly. Hell is real. God wills that all men be saved but that does mean He will will it. He won’t. He has already said that. Don’t use the “all” in the text to do as some Protestants do with the “until” part of the Scriptures to refute Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. It is a grave mistake of the same kind: Scripture twisted to deny or refute something we know is fact.

Glenda

 

[OneSheep]

God can do whatever He wants.

And what He wants never contradicts His nature.

Exactly, I agree completely with both of these statements. God will act according to His nature. But what is His nature? His nature will be seen according to individual relationships with Abba. This is what we can glean from this thread, folks.

If God as I know Him forgives conditionally, then I will view Abba’s nature differently than someone who knows God as forgiving without condition.

If Justice, as opposed to mercy, is seen in the relationship as primary, then it doesn’t matter whether a sinner in hell (if it happens) finally repents, the “rules” are more important than the individual’s suffering. On the other hand, if hell is indeed “punishment”, and all ethical punishment has a reformative effect (at least in intent), then hell itself is a temporary state.

These differences are to be worked out within the individual in their own relationship with God. Can we take this thread to a new level? Obviously, there are going to be differences, and what is the Christian response to these differences?

To me, the Christian response is to accept people where they are, and to include people in what we see as “Church”, not in exact doctrinal interpretation but in the simple fact that we break bread together. Does anyone out there see this differently?

 

[Tom_Baum]

And what He wants never contradicts His nature.

Which Is a “Consuming Fire of Pure Love”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not only is this rather disingenuous it’s frankly rather peevish on your part.

The problem is that this issue is not beyond our understanding precisely because Dad has already told us through Jesus.

We know hell is eternal because Dad says it is!

We know that hell is “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”- These are Jesus’ own words!

So if you have a problem with hell being eternal, your problem is not with us who you falsely and disingenuously accuse of “knowing everything” or “wanting people to go to hell”, rather your problem is with Dad who said these very things which you object to.

So instead of deriding those of us who are standing up with Dad, Jesus, and the Church’s sound Tradition and authority, who are in fact citing the Lord’s own words, perhaps you should take your concerns up with Dad who said them.

Does “eternity” last forever?

Jesus said a lot of things.

Where Jesus said about whatever you did to the least you did to me, do you think or do you know what the Church might say concerning whether there is anyone who falls completely into one or the other category?

Seems to me that ALL of us have done right towards others and have done wrong toward others, do we go to both the left and right of Jesus?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Rod.

How can God save all people? Truth is He can’t because we humans turn from Him. One way to turn from Him is to deny that the consequences of one’s actions or lack of them can have eternal ramifications that are of a negative variety, i.e. Hell forever. If one passes from this life with a false belief in something taught by the Church, one increases the chances that one will have that outcome greatly. Hell is real. God wills that all men be saved but that does mean He will will it. He won’t. He has already said that. Don’t use the “all” in the text to do as some Protestants do with the “until” part of the Scriptures to refute Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. It is a grave mistake of the same kind: Scripture twisted to deny or refute something we know is fact.

Glenda

Interesting statement: “God wills that all men be saved but that does mean He will will it.”

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

Interesting statement: “God wills that all men be saved but that does mean He will will it.”

Thanks for bringing my poor typing to my attention. OOOOOPS! It should read: “but that **doesn’t **mean He will will it. He won’t.”

Sorry for the confusion.

Glenda