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arte
Guest
I apologise for my error. I am having problems using the quote function. I will sort the post out.
Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?
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arte
Guest
Hi Simpleas,Billions of children are in hell? Are you serious?
I’ll approach it the other way around. Only Christians can go Heaven.
John 14:.6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; **no one comes to the Father but through Me. **
Catechism1026
By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification for those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
Age of Discretion/Reason/Accountability/Moral Responsibility
I found that the Catechism did not provide a definitive answer.
Catechism
1307 The Latin tradition gives “the age of discretion” as the reference point for receiving Confirmation. But in danger of death children should be confirmed even if they have not yet attained the age of discretion.123
Catholic Encyclopedia
The name given to that period of human life at which persons are deemed to begin to be morally responsible. This, as a rule, happens at the age of seven, or thereabouts, though the use of reason requisite for moral discernment may come before, or may be delayed until notably after, that time.
Catholic Doors Ministry
According to the Church Canon Law, “A minor before the completion of the seventh year is called an infant and is considered not responsible for oneself (non sui compos). With the completion of the seventh year, however, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason.” [Catholic Code of Canon Law # 97 §2]
For the above reason, the Catholic Church teaches that only a child age 8 and over can sin.
I can remember as a child being confirmed but I’m not sure whether I was 7 or 8 years old. There could be reasons for the age to be raised for some children. Let’s say the age is normally 8
From the above, children of any religion or no religion below the age of 8 can enter Heaven. Also, Christian children above the age of 8 without a mortal sin on their soul can enter Heaven. So where do all the non Christian children above the age of 8 and Christian children above the age of 8 with mortal sins on their souls go to if they cannot enter Heaven? I believe that they go to Hell. If I am wrong, please let me know where they go. I would be absolutely delighted if I am wrong in my belief.
The UN classifies children as being 15 years of age and under. There are currently approximately 1.9 Billion children in the World. My post stated, all people from the past, present and future. Therefore, from the above, there are (or will be in the future) billions of children in Hell. I really hope (and pray) that I am wrong.
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OneSheep
Guest
Thanks!
So, in your observation there are people who are “indeed evil”. Of this too, I fail to find an example. Can you provide one? Yes, there are people who want to hurt others, and want nothing to do with God. These individuals are lacking awareness and/or are blind.
I also fail to find anyone who never wants to change when change is called for. God made us capable of adapting to situations when necessary. Everyone, eventually, can change their ways and their outlook, given pertinent experience and enlightenment.
I can pray that they see the light. I can pray for their well-being and the well-being of their loved ones. So, keep in mind that I am coming from the perspective that every single individual is capable of seeing the light.
However, it does make sense that hell is a place for people who will never want God, and God would indeed know that. Is there such a person, though? The question calls for an “anthropodicy” (a word I think coined by Beth Johnson). What is the human capable of? Why does he do hurtful acts? etc. etc.
Bottom line: If you are thinking that the only people in hell are the ones who would “never repent”, then it makes sense that they would prefer to stay there. In that case, the question on this thread makes a false assumption, that people are in hell because God does not relent. God “relenting” has nothing to do with it, it is that some people, in that view, will never come to see God’s goodness. I don’t see that. We see people differently, I think.
Me too!
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OneSheep
Guest
Actually, key to this whole discussion is our own views of the human. In my view, all people are capable of change. I do not know what “positive law” is, so that would not be where the “reformative” theory comes from.
If a person chooses hell, he does so in ignorance.
Yes, that makes sense in terms politely explained by Rinnie, but then the question “can God relent” makes a false assumption.
To repeat, all sin has the necessary ingredient of a lack of awareness.
Immoral acts have immoral consequences?
I agree, I was explaining perspectives that people may have.
Yes, they are not condemned not sent. The “choice” view excludes the “sent” view, unless we are saying they “sent” themselves, which is still, well, choice. “Sent” usually implies “against their will”.
Not necessarily.
I did not call anything to question. No one is capable of separating their spoken theology from their own relationship with the Father. I am only an “authority” on me.
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OneSheep
Guest
Hi arte!, let me put a few words in here. A priest told us that people from other religions still go to heaven, but they indeed do so through Christ.
Well, if you were God would you send these children to hell? If not, it would be because of your own love and mercy. Are you thinking that God is less loving and merciful than you are?
Where are the children? If they were your children, where would they be?
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glendab
Guest
Hello Arte.
Glenda
What you aren’t getting is that once dead, no more choice is possible. The act of asking for something (mercy) is only possible while alive and involves an act of the will. The instant death arrives and separates the soul from the body, there can be no more movements of the will and that means the act of asking for mercy. God is merciful yes, His mercy is great, but if not asked for in a sincere and heartfelt way, He can’t give it. At death whatever was willed while alive is measured. If it is found lacking, then the choices the person made in this life are what will determine that persons eternity. If their sins have not been washed in the Blood of the Lamb of God, then they will remain on that soul and their eternity will be Hell. That is the reality you will face at the end of your life, whether or not you believe it or accept it. Since you are here at CAF, I can only assume you have left the land of invincible ignorance behind and have some rudimentary understanding of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ and also have access to the answers you need to live it rightly. That what this place does as well as plenty of other places on the Internet. You’ve lost your excuses long ago. Now what? Keep arguing? Not wise.
Glenda
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djames99
Guest
Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century):
Code:
"What is a merciful heart? It is a heart that burns with love
for the whole creation — for men, for birds, for beasts,
for demons and for every creature."
and, also an ancient story:
...With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. "Release me, Father, and let
me go," pleaded the demon, "I will not come to tempt you
again". "I will gladly do that, but on one condition,"
replied the monk. "You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God's Throne on high, before your fall."
The demon responded, "You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die." "Then you will have to remain
here in my cell," said the monk, "and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance." "Let me go, do not force me
to suffer," pleaded the demon." "Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan."
So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba's humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.
:shrug:
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glendab
Guest
Hello djames.
Glenda
The devil can disguise himself easily as an angel of light, but that light won’t be the light of Christ but will be the obscene glare of Hell. Your story has a similar glare to me.
Glenda
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Rodb
Guest
A lot of the controversy seems to surround the issue of whether someone can make a decision for Jesus after death. Doesn’t the Bible mention a second death? Perhaps everyone will become fully informed enough to make a fair decision after the 1st death, perhaps in the 1000 year reign and then, if they persist in evil, can fairly be said to have condemned themselves to hell, and eventually, because Jesus is the source of all life and they have rejected Him, die the 2nd death and are annihilated. I think the Matthew 10:28 may be referring to this.
I think this would address a lot of the “fairness” issues that have been raised.
I think this would address a lot of the “fairness” issues that have been raised.
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tdgesq
Guest
The problem here is that the Church has already definitively taught that there is no period between our earthly death and the experience of heaven or hell.
Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.
Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 6.
You guys, there isn’t any philosophical or theological debate open on some of these issues. The Church has given it’s infallible teaching on them. Sure, there are other some questions about hell that are open to philosophical speculation, but the eternal punishment of hell and the immediate descent into hell of the unjust are not up for debate.
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Amandil
Guest
This is where any discussion with you is nearly impossible.
Truth is not subjective. Truth is not based upon our own views.
The Catholic Church does not believe or teach a subjective or relative theory of truth but rather holds to objective truth.
So “the key to this discussion” ought to based upon the sound teaching of the Church, not your subjective opinions.
And if you don’t know what positive law theory, or “legal positivism” is, how can you possibly say with any certainty that “reformative” theory doesn’t come from it?
“I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.”- Satan
That is how a person chooses hell, not from “ignorance”.
What false assumption? And how do you know it is?
Not any “awareness” which is sufficient to negate the fact that they know it is sinful and that they freely chose it.
FTFY
And yes, immoral acts have natural consequences.
The natural consequence of sin is spiritual death.
Not at all. If a reprobate soul refuses to serve God and would rather worship himself or some thing besides God, He says, “Have it your way.” & God sends them on their way.
Whatever you say.
Wow. This is what you said:I did not call anything to question. No one is capable of separating their spoken theology from their own relationship with the Father. I am only an “authority” on me.
For one, you called their words “assertions”. Thus demonstrating your personal incredulity towards their words. They are Fathers of the Church. They are Bishops, ordained, and inspired by God to rule and guide the Church.
Secondly, these weren’t just insignificant musings from nondescript individuals which happened to be recorded and written, but these are in fact from seminal works intended for public instruction. Therefore the “context” they are to be read in is precisely that of their respective offices as Bishops of the Church.
That you would attempt to de-emphasize or diminish their value because they have the audacity to directly contradict your opinions to me speaks volumes.
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Amandil
Guest
I again point to St. Augustine:
"“The soul is so connected with the body that it succumbs to great pain and withdraws; for the structure of our members and vital parts is so infirm that it cannot bear up against that violence which causes great or extreme agony. But in the life to come this connection of soul and body is of such a kind, that as it is dissolved by no lapse of time, so neither is it burst asunder by any pain…Death will be eternal, since the soul will neither be able to enjoy God and live, nor to die and escape the pains of the body. The first death drives the soul from the body against his/her will; the second death holds the soul in the body against his/her will.” St. Augustine, City of God, Bk 21, chpt 3
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arte
Guest
I do not believe in Hell. Please see Post # 451 which this reply to Simpleas came from. I find people are far too flippant when they say Hell exists. They have not thought through the ramifications of what their statement actually means. I included children in my post to bring this awareness home to people. I should not have included the following sentences in my reply: “I believe that they go to Hell” and “I would be absolutely delighted if I am wrong in my belief”. I should have said something like: “Scripture states that only those that accept Jesus as their Saviour (Christians - my words) can go to Heaven” and "Our Church teaching indicates that children can go to Hell (Confirmation - age of Reason etc - my words)
In answer to your questions, God’s love and mercy for His children is far higher than my love and mercy for my children. I would never ever put my children in “any situation where they could be in harms way” never mind Hell. Your question is the same question that I have asked members on this forum who believe in Hell. The answer is that all of these children are in Heaven.
In my research for posts on this thread, I have read that our Church is alarmed at the number of Catholics who now believe in Universal Salvation.
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glendab
Guest
Hello Arte.
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Amandil
Guest
Which is rather remarkable because Christ certainly did. He affirmed it in no uncertain terms.
Hell is no joke, arte.
“Flippancy” would be to insist that Christ’s or the Church’s teachings about hell are not to be believed.
You have clearly not thought of the ramifications of what your statement actually means.
No, you included children in your post to make some sort of irrational appeal to emotion so as to evoke an emotional rather than a rational response.
It’s a rather fallacious form of argumentation, truth does not depend upon emotion. Just because something is emotionally painful to think of doesn’t mean that it’s not true.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Who knows, maybe when those “who simply do not understand what sin really is”, will be among the first in God’s Kingdom since they may very well be the last to “understand what sin really is”.
For some when they meet God, it just might be the “first taste of love” that they have ever experienced and they will “know” that it is NOT “abhorrent and undesirable”.
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Vico
Guest
It is interesting that we are taught that baptism (by water, blood, or desire) is required for salvation of adults, but for unbaptized infants that have died, there is remains hope.“However, with regard to the salvation of those who die without Baptism, the Word of God says little or nothing. It is therefore necessary to interpret the reticence of Scripture on this issue in the light of texts concerning the universal plan of salvation and the ways of salvation. In short, the problem both for theology and for pastoral care is how to safeguard and reconcile two sets of biblical affirmations: those concerning God’s universal salvific will (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) and those regarding the necessity of Baptism as the way of being freed from sin and conformed to Christ (cf. Mk 16:16; Mt 28:18-19).
…
Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful * hope*, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12).”
- INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION, approved for publication 2007
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
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Amandil
Guest
Vico-
When I said “This is the problem with many here who simply do not understand what sin really is”, clearly I was not referring to infants or children.
When I said “This is the problem with many here who simply do not understand what sin really is”, clearly I was not referring to infants or children.
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Amandil
Guest
If you had the humility which the parable from which you are purposefully distorting necessarily implies there is no way you would deign to spout your opinions as divinely ordained “truths”.
Tom Baum:
Or they will in fact revolt at it, never desiring it to begin with.
God’s love is not irresistible to the human will, Tom. And He will not make it irresistable just to satisfy your sensibilities because it would destroy our own nature and our freedom.
You need to face this fact: there are people who will run from His love, even at the expense of an eternity of suffering, and He will not stop them from doing so.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, I don’t even pretend to know all that God may be trying to get thru to us thru these few words but I am offering up some “food for thought”.
As far as, "Who knows, maybe when those “who simply do not understand what sin really is”, will be among the first in God’s Kingdom since they may very well be the last to “understand what sin really is”, I am not saying that it is necessarily "divinely ordained “truths”, but I am saying that it is something worth pondering.
I’m saying “maybe”, are you saying “definitely not”?
I happen to believe that God can and does, at times, mean more than one thing when God speaks.
As I have said many times, I “know” a little and the reason that I do “know” a little is that God revealed this knowledge to me, one of the things that I “know” is that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being and I believe that all of the thinking in the world will never bring one to “know” this.
“Knowing and believing” are not the same.
I’ve met God but I do not have God “all figured out”, I believe that God truly is deserving of all of the “good adjectives” associated with God and I hope for what I hope for, even tho there are those who tell me that I shouldn’t hope for what I hope for.
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