Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[OneSheep]

Hello Arte.
What you aren’t getting is that once dead, no more choice is possible. The act of asking for something (mercy) is only possible while alive and involves an act of the will. The instant death arrives and separates the soul from the body, there can be no more movements of the will and that means the act of asking for mercy.

Interesting, Glenda. So, since having a will is part of being alive and being an autonomous individual, then a person in hell is essentially not that person anymore, he essentially no longer exists. Is this in the CCC?

If this is the case, then hell is not a punishment, it is more of a cosmological phenomenon, right?

God is merciful yes, His mercy is great, but if not asked for in a sincere and heartfelt way, He can’t give it.

Glenda

But from what you said above, the person would not have a will to ask in the first place, right? Please clarify. Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, I don’t even pretend to know all that God may be trying to get thru to us thru these few words but I am offering up some “food for thought”.

As far as, "Who knows, maybe when those “who simply do not understand what sin really is”, will be among the first in God’s Kingdom since they may very well be the last to “understand what sin really is”, I am not saying that it is necessarily "divinely ordained “truths”, but I am saying that it is something worth pondering.

I’m saying “maybe”, are you saying “definitely not”?

I happen to believe that God can and does, at times, mean more than one thing when God speaks.

As I have said many times, I “know” a little and the reason that I do “know” a little is that God revealed this knowledge to me, one of the things that I “know” is that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being and I believe that all of the thinking in the world will never bring one to “know” this.

“Knowing and believing” are not the same.

I’ve met God but I do not have God “all figured out”, I believe that God truly is deserving of all of the “good adjectives” associated with God and I hope for what I hope for, even tho there are those who tell me that I shouldn’t hope for what I hope for.

Thanks for your humility! I could not have said it in a better way.

 

[Amandil]

Thanks for your humility! I could not have said it in a better way.

It is not humble to demean human reason (which is a gift from God) or to contradict revealed truths.

 

[Amandil]

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, I don’t even pretend to know all that God may be trying to get thru to us thru these few words but I am offering up some “food for thought”.

Jesus was rather explicit when He explained it: those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Sinners by definition exalt themselves. There’s no obscure mystery behind it.
Tom Baum:

As far as, "Who knows, maybe when those “who simply do not understand what sin really is”, will be among the first in God’s Kingdom since they may very well be the last to “understand what sin really is”, I am not saying that it is necessarily "divinely ordained “truths”, but I am saying that it is something worth pondering.

Christ already showed us what sin really is; if you’re still confused, look at a crucifix.

None of us ought to be confused as to what sin really is, especially Catholics. Yet many people here who profess to be Catholic tragically are.
Tom Baum:

I’m saying “maybe”, are you saying “definitely not”?

I’m not saying anything. Nothing I say is based upon my own subjective opinion because I have no say in the matter. I submit my intellect and will to that of God and mother Church.

What I am saying is precisely what Jesus has said and what the Church teaches. Period.
Tom Baum:

I happen to believe that God can and does, at times, mean more than one thing when God speaks.

He may or He may not. The point is that its not up to you to decide what He means.
Tom Baum:

As I have said many times, I “know” a little and the reason that I do “know” a little is that God revealed this knowledge to me, one of the things that I “know” is that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being and I believe that all of the thinking in the world will never bring one to “know” this.

Well, if you actually want to truly understand what that means, that God is Love, you need to educate yourself beyond your idea of love as being mere sentimentality. God is Agape (charity), not storge(affection).
Tom Baum:

“Knowing and believing” are not the same.

Neither are they mutually exclusive. Believing, to believe, is more certain knowledge, not less. JPII explained this in his encyclical on Faith and Reason.
Tom Baum:

I’ve met God but I do not have God “all figured out”, I believe that God truly is deserving of all of the “good adjectives” associated with God and I hope for what I hope for, even tho there are those who tell me that I shouldn’t hope for what I hope for.

There are true hopes worthy of hoping for and false hopes which are simply self-deceptions.

Are you saying that God wants you to have hope in a lie?

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is not humble to demean human reason (which is a gift from God) or to contradict revealed truths.

I do not demean human reason, which I agree is a “gift from God”, as a matter of fact I think that too many are afraid to use their reasoning ability for anything more than “parroting” what others have come up with.

However, I very much do believe that there are “things” about God that are beyond our (humans) reasoning ability, this in no way, shape or form, in my opinion, demeans human reason.

I think that we “demean” God when we attempt to “bring God down to our size” rather than admit our finiteness.

I don’t believe that all truth that will be revealed has been revealed.

I believe, not know, that there could very well be many who believe in God that will be more shocked in meeting God than many people who do not believe in God at all upon their meeting God.

“My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, I believe that God wholeheartedly, so to speak, meant this and let us know about this to buoy us up and give us something to ponder about.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

“The first shall be last and the last shall be first”, I don’t even pretend to know all that God may be trying to get thru to us thru these few words but I am offering up some “food for thought”.

As far as, "Who knows, maybe when those “who simply do not understand what sin really is”, will be among the first in God’s Kingdom since they may very well be the last to “understand what sin really is”, I am not saying that it is necessarily "divinely ordained “truths”, but I am saying that it is something worth pondering.

I’m saying “maybe”, are you saying “definitely not”?

I happen to believe that God can and does, at times, mean more than one thing when God speaks.

As I have said many times, I “know” a little and the reason that I do “know” a little is that God revealed this knowledge to me, one of the things that I “know” is that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being and I believe that all of the thinking in the world will never bring one to “know” this.

“Knowing and believing” are not the same.

I’ve met God but I do not have God “all figured out”, I believe that God truly is deserving of all of the “good adjectives” associated with God and I hope for what I hope for, even tho there are those who tell me that I shouldn’t hope for what I hope for.

I think the reason you are drawing so much fire from Amandil and others, (rightly so BTW) in this thread it the simple fact you claim to be Catholic and yet you disbelieve basic truths of the Church and claim to have talked to God and had things “revealed” to you by Him and deviate from the Truths that the Catholic Church teaches in many ways. A person who actually met God would’ve behave this way. You anger those who like me, work at being faithful to the Church’s Magisterial teachings and have taken pains to learn what we are supposed to give our assent to. You clearly don’t. That is the reason you get taken to task so often. If you don’t believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches, change the religion you list yourself as. It gets tedious talking to you sometimes. I think this can be perceived as arrogance by some. So have patience with us Tom. We’re only trying to remain faithful and defend the Church.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

Interesting, Glenda. So, since having a will is part of being alive and being an autonomous individual, then a person in hell is essentially not that person anymore, he essentially no longer exists. Is this in the CCC?

If this is the case, then hell is not a punishment, it is more of a cosmological phenomenon, right?

But from what you said above, the person would not have a will to ask in the first place, right? Please clarify. Thanks.

When you die, you will no longer be able to turn your will towards God. You will be judged upon what you did with it in this life. That’s it - story over. End of all choices. If you die with mortal sins that haven’t been washed in the Blood of the Lamb on your soul and hold onto false beliefs till then, you will go to Hell and then you’ll find out how wrong you were only it will be too late. Don’t wait to repent.

If you want to tease others with cosmological inventions and fantasies that’s fine. But I won’t go there with you. Hell is very real. It is a place made by God for the devils and serves God as the final destination for the souls, and eventually the bodies, of those who die outside of God’s favor. You don’t believe this. That’s is fine for you. Just don’t claim you are speaking on behalf of the Church.

Glenda

 

[Amandil]

I do not demean human reason, which I agree is a “gift from God”, as a matter of fact I think that too many are afraid to use their reasoning ability for anything more than “parroting” what others have come up with.

Such as universal salvation. Indeed.
Tom Baum:

However, I very much do believe that there are “things” about God that are beyond our (humans) reasoning ability, this in no way, shape or form, in my opinion, demeans human reason.

And in the case of the existence of hell and that it is eternal this is certainly not the case.

The same God who is Love condemns people to hell. This is a fact.

The abuse of reason happens when there are those who go to excruciatingly painful lengths to deny those revealed truths.
Tom Baum:

I think that we “demean” God when we attempt to “bring God down to our size” rather than admit our finiteness.

As in your attempts to anthropormorphize God so as to match your own sensibilities.

God affirms that hell exists and that it is eternal. You deny it. So what is it that you think that you’re doing to God?
Tom Baum:

I don’t believe that all truth that will be revealed has been revealed.

Then this is another thing you stand contrary to the Church on.
Tom Baum:

I believe, not know, that there could very well be many who believe in God that will be more shocked in meeting God than many people who do not believe in God at all upon their meeting God.

And I think that belief includes yourself as well.
Tom Baum:

“My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”, I believe that God wholeheartedly, so to speak, meant this and let us know about this to buoy us up and give us something to ponder about.

No, simply meant that if we are to identify our wills with His we cannot think like the world thinks. That we live according to the spirit and not the flesh, that we judge all things spiritually and not actually.

What it does not mean is that you have the right to contradict His revelation just because you find it disagreeable and then say to someone who is objecting to your view “Well, you just don’t know, so be silent about it.”

 

[djames99]

Hello djames.

The devil can disguise himself easily as an angel of light, but that light won’t be the light of Christ but will be the obscene glare of Hell. Your story has a similar glare to me.

Glenda

I don’t disagree with you. Of course it has it’s theological pitfalls. The story is from an ancient Patericon. Irish origin I think.

 

[tdgesq]

I do not believe in Hell. Please see Post # 451 which this reply to Simpleas came from. I find people are far too flippant when they say Hell exists.

The consequence of your position is that you disagree with the definitive teachings of the Catholic Church, which infallibly teaches that hell does exist. By doing that, you have also (perhaps unknowingly) rejected the infallibility of the Catholic Church.

 

[Mark121359]

This thread is somewhat disconcerting. Catholic teaching is so clear. Glendab, Amandil and others have gone to the mat trying to explain Church teachings, only to seemingly fall on deaf ears. It’s as if the Church to some on here has got it all wrong. I think that most of this denial comes from the deep-rooted fear and anxiety that Church teachings about hell brings to the surface. And the very real possibility that one could end up there. I realize that many on here will simply shrug off Fatima as non-essential. But I’ll tell you something, our Church sure does takes it seriously. And I’ve yet to hear of a single priest who denies it. The vision of hell that the Virgin showed Lucia Santos, Jacinta and Francisco Martos was to have a very profound and lasting effect on the children. Sister Lucy never ceased to repeat that the vision of hell profoundly marked the souls of the three seers. On May 13, 1936, she wrote:

*“… This vision which would make such an impression on all three, especially Jacinta, whose character was even changed. "

“…some of the things revealed in the secret made a very strong impression on Jacinta. This was indeed the case. The vision of hell filled her with horror to such a degree that every penance and mortification was as nothing in her eyes, if it could only prevent souls from going there.” *

I have always strongly believed in this apparition. And so does the RCC. But something tells me that the same ones on here dismissing hell will have no problem whatsoever dismissing Fatima as well. The only thing left for me to say then is…May God Bless you on your spiritual journey!

Peace, Mark.

 

[Amandil]

I really don’t know what is a worse heresy, the protestant “Once Saved Always Saved” or this novelty of “Universal Salvation” put forth by the likes of Tom, OneSheep, arte, etc.

Mark121359:

I think that most of this denial comes from the deep-rooted fear and anxiety that Church teachings about hell brings to the surface. And the very real possibility that one could end up there.

Well, what do you notice most often when people have a certain irrational abhorrence for one thing or another?

Why do atheists, especially the more militant ones, spend so much time trying to convince the world that there is no God? Because they care for their fellow man(well, I guess you could say that misery loves company)? Are they really trying to convince others or themselves?

Why is it that OneSheep wants people to believe that nobody commits a mortal sin?

Why is it that arte doesn’t believe in hell despite 2000 years of Church teachings on the matter?

Why is it that Tom believes that someone will be able to “change their minds” once they experience hell and choose heaven(like hell can make someone suddenly realize something which they already knew but ignored while on earth)?

Are they really trying to convince others or themselves?

 

[arte]

The consequence of your position is that you disagree with the definitive teachings of the Catholic Church, which infallibly teaches that hell does exist. By doing that, you have also (perhaps unknowingly) rejected the infallibility of the Catholic Church.

Until your post, I was unknowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church in my non belief in Hell. I am now knowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church on this one issue and no others. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay.

Do you see it as fair justice that the vast majority of mankind including children should be tortured 24/7 for eternity? Do you also see it as fair justice that a soul with 1 mortal sin should undergo the same sentence? All this from an omnipotent being who we are told loves us far more than we can love our own children. Also, He can show far more mercy than we can to our own children. Can’t you see a contradiction here somewhere?

Please see this link which supports my case that some Christian organisations use the fear of Hell to evangelise. It is absolutely despicable.
biblerays.com/letter-from-hell.html

I can remember when it was a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One Sunday as a young child, I went to the beach for the day with a Catholic family who didn’t go to mass as often as we did. On the journey home, I was petrified that we would have an accident because if I was killed, I would go straight to Hell. I am a Returned Catholic and was told by my Priest that it is no longer a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One day on a Friday, my mother gave me a sausage roll with the meat scraped out. I was in a school where half the teachers were Catholic Brothers. I told Brother Luke who set up a confession with a priest because my act could be a mortal sin. We were having a mass in the afternoon and I wanted to have Holy Communion. Nowadays, we only abstain from eating meat on Fridays during Lent. What I am saying here is that our Church changes laws that were once said to be infallible. However, the change in Church Laws is not retrospective. In other words people who disobeyed the above laws when they were current and died before confessing them are in Hell. I could be totally wrong in this paragraph and if I am, I’m sure that someone will tell me. This is the great thing about being a member of this forum.

 

[Amandil]

Until your post, I was unknowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church in my non belief in Hell. I am now knowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church on this one issue and no others. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay.

Do you see it as fair justice that the vast majority of mankind including children should be tortured 24/7 for eternity? Do you also see it as fair justice that a soul with 1 mortal sin should undergo the same sentence? All this from an omnipotent being who we are told loves us far more than we can love our own children. Also, He can show far more mercy than we can to our own children. Can’t you see a contradiction here somewhere?

Please see this link which supports my case that some Christian organisations use the fear of Hell to evangelise. It is absolutely despicable.
biblerays.com/letter-from-hell.html

I can remember when it was a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One Sunday as a young child, I went to the beach for the day with a Catholic family who didn’t go to mass as often as we did. On the journey home, I was petrified that we would have an accident because if I was killed, I would go straight to Hell. I am a Returned Catholic and was told by my Priest that it is no longer a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One day on a Friday, my mother gave me a sausage roll with the meat scraped out. I was in a school where half the teachers were Catholic Brothers. I told Brother Luke who set up a confession with a priest because my act could be a mortal sin. We were having a mass in the afternoon and I wanted to have Holy Communion. Nowadays, we only abstain from eating meat on Fridays during Lent. What I am saying here is that our Church changes laws that were once said to be infallible. However, the change in Church Laws is not retrospective. In other words people who disobeyed the above laws when they were current and died before confessing them are in Hell. I could be totally wrong in this paragraph and if I am, I’m sure that someone will tell me. This is the great thing about being a member of this forum.

1. Catholic authors are not an authority in the Church in determining what doctrine is nor do they have the right to contradict the Church’s teaching.
2. With all due respect to your priest, he is not an authority in determining what doctrine is nor does he have the right to contradict Church teaching. He derives his authority from the local ordinary bishop in charge of your diocese. Priests do not possess the gift of infallibility and the way you portray him he is in fact teaching heresy. Neglecting Sunday obligation is still a mortal sin except for **serious circumstances **.

Priests, because of their office, and anyone who designs to teach the faith, will be held accountable to a higher standard and subject to a stricter judgment(James 3:1).

It’s bad enough that you’re actually believing this stuff, but to further spread it around, I beg you for your own sake to be silent and speak no more on the matter.

“…happy is he who is not condemned by what he approves.”(Romans 14:22)

 

[TK421]

@arte:

Being infallible, but being wrong on one doctrine, is the same thing as being fallible.

You conclude that because the concept of Hell is intolerable, that it must not be true. Hell is suppose to be intolerable. If your reaction to it is intensely negative, then you have reacted appropriately. That is why it is so important for us to be faithful and to follow our Lady’s wishes.

 

[glendab]

Hello Djames.

I don’t disagree with you. Of course it has it’s theological pitfalls. The story is from an ancient Patericon. Irish origin I think.

Excuse me, but common sense applies. Anyone, I repeat, ANYONE who says they conversed with a demon and got that demon to sing and it became music to their ears, is NOT a good guy! Sorry. Ain’t buyin’ it. You may think being seduced by the devil is good, and proof sufficient to provide substantiation of a false doctrine of Universal Salvation, but as for this gal, it is proof of the exact opposite, that the notion is false and authored by the father of Lies. Thanks for sharing.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

hello Arte.

Until your post, I was unknowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church in my non belief in Hell. I am now knowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church on this one issue and no others. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay…I can remember when it was a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday.

Congratulations - you know of several people, who may actually go to Hell because they deny its existence. Heresy is to deny some essential belief of the Church and if one persists in it until death, then one will receive the proper reward for that denial.

As for your second comment regarding missing Mass on Sundays, guess what? It still is a mortal sin. In the beginning of your comments to tdgesq, you said you only have ONE beef with the Church, but from looking at your posts here an elsewhere, I can see that there really are more holes in your understanding and beliefs than you are aware of. When we lose one part of our faith, many other parts follow. You can’t just pick and chose what you will or will not accept. You either accept all of it or none of it. Most who try to weave there own understanding into a cloth that holds wine find that both the wine and their skins are ruined.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Arte.

One other thing I’d like to say, about that sausage on a roll. The mortality of the sin wasn’t in the meat, it was in the act of disobedience to the Church’s disciplines that made the sin mortal. Keep in mind wiser men then either you or I have said more than once that disobedience was the primary sin of the fallen angels and turned them into devils.

Glenda

 

[Mark121359]

*I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay.

I am a Returned Catholic and was told by my Priest that it is no longer a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. *

If my parish Priest were telling me the things listed in the above post, I would be searching for another parish…***pronto! ***This is so common today. Especially here in the U.S. Mother Angelica used to go on and on about wayward priests on a weekly basis on her “Live” show… Recently, I was listening to EWTN radio’s Open- Line show. The host John Martignoni, was answering a caller whose liberal parish priest was giving them “flawed” teachings. Martignoni said that many priests completely ignore Church teachings and give their “liberal” perspective instead of Church doctrine. What he said next caught my attention. He said that when these priests do this, ***“it’s as if they were pouring acid on their parishioners souls.” ***And he also said that these priests will indeed pay a heavy price for doing this. A Catholic co-worker of mine supports SSM, homosexuality, contraception, women priests and the like. I asked him to talk to his pastor about his views. He told me that he has…and that his pastor completely agrees with him! Again, this is so common. That’s why poor catechesis is so detrimental to the Catholic Faith. If you don’t know even the basics of the Faith, it becomes way too easy to swallow this poison. Me personally, I’m always thirsting for more knowledge.

Peace, Mark

 

[OneSheep]

Until your post, I was unknowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church in my non belief in Hell. I am now knowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church on this one issue and no others. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay.

Do you see it as fair justice that the vast majority of mankind including children should be tortured 24/7 for eternity? Do you also see it as fair justice that a soul with 1 mortal sin should undergo the same sentence? All this from an omnipotent being who we are told loves us far more than we can love our own children. Also, He can show far more mercy than we can to our own children. Can’t you see a contradiction here somewhere?

Yes, I see a contradiction.
If God loves me more than I do my own children, then there is nothing that they can do that will keep me from wanting them with me.

If God is omnipotent, there is nothing he cannot do in terms of life after death, including showing people who He is, and really explaining to us in very real ways the prevalence of His being and His love.

Keep in mind, though, that there is a lot to be said for a person’s choice to reject God. As much as God wants us, if a person chooses to be away from God, then God respects that, that makes sense. I don’t think anyone ever rejects God, at least not with a knowing mind, so I don’t see it ever happening, but the possibility remains. If we do make such a choice, it would be very, very, clear. Our God is a just God, and it would be unfair for a person to be allowed to leave when he doesn’t know what he is doing.

Would I let my child eat a poison mushroom, even after explaining that it would kill him? Absolutely not. The child has a death-wish for some reason, and that reason needs to be worked through.

I think it is fairly obvious, by now, that many respondents do not see a contradiction.

1. Many people would indeed send their own child away forever for a number of reasons, and would never let them come back. They are limited by their own experiences, like we all are, and cannot imagine God behaving differently. These people need to be shown what love means.
2. Others see a contradiction, but the CCC and assertions of Church infallibility give them a great deal of security, and change is frightening. If revelation actually changes what the Church teaches, these individuals may have their faith shaken to the roots.
3. Others cannot fathom God forgiving certain people, and they want those people to be punished forever.
4. Others still can imagine God forgiving, but cannot imagine certain people ever repenting. This comes down to anthropology, psychology, self-awareness. Can I ever change my mind? Can I ever be influenced? Those who very stubbornly insist on anything, will not change their mind for any reason whatsoever, will have a lot of trouble imagining that anyone else will either. This, again, is a matter of projection. If I am under the thinking “I will never change my mind.” then I am enslaved by the thinking that no one else can either.
5. Others are so focused on the “justice” aspect of hell that they cannot imagine some people not being punished forever. Again, this is a forgiveness issue, but some people have a lot of trouble forgiving those that do the greatest evil in our world.

What I am saying is that there is a place in the Church for all of the examples I gave, and there are as many others examples as there are people who believe in God not relenting. Every one of us has a journey, and every one of us is in a different place and sees God in a slightly different way. We can all come to the table together as a family, albeit a family that has different perceptions.

We can present our views and maybe others will listen, maybe not. If someone says “if you say this, you are not Catholic” it is time to let that person be. Their desire to exclude someone is their choice. I encourage everyone, though, to be inclusive. There are issues much more important today than what happens to us after we die.