Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[rinnie]

I know one priest that always says about how meat can be eaten on holy days that fall on a friday, and that if we miss mass on sundays or holy days its a mortal sin. Although he doesn’t say often about mortal sin, more about eating meat, but he does love his meat,so is always happy to tell us that it can be eaten (thats if a person is a meat eater in the first place!)

Then theres another priest, who will mention holy days, but I’ve yet to hear him say any thing about mortal sin if we miss mass etc, and he never says we need to obstain from meat on fridays.

I think it’s down to the priests what we learn, I never heard the faith spoken about to this degree by a priest. I wonder if the church sees a problem with the faithful thats important enough to do something about it, or is the church slowly changing with the times. And I mean slowly changing…because it will I think.

Wrong! Sorry, but the word of God will never change. What you are speaking of is Church Disciplines. The Pope has the right in the RCC to change them as he sees fit.

Many Bishops also have permission to do this in their area.

IT has nothing to do with the true word of God.

Back when we were told don’t eat meat on Friday, it was something we gave up for God. The reason was there were so many fishes being wasted and washed up. So in order not to waste it was said lets give up meat, eat fish so we don’t waste, and give meat up on Friday for God.

But it was a Church Discipline. It ended. My Dad chose to always keep it, and did it for the rest of his life of 83 years. It was okay and his penance you could say to God.

Now the Church Discipline is no meat on Fridays during Lent only. That’s what it is for now. We must obey Church discipline.

And missing Church on Sunday if you have no good excuse, like sick, taking care of someone sick, can’t get out of work… it is indeed a mortal sin.

You must go to confession before you go back to communion.

But the Church will never change IF you mean the teaching. If you mean Church Discipline it always has and will. But you must be clear in this. Because no Pope. Bishop, etc can change the teaching of the word of God. Because God is unchanging.

 

[rinnie]

Also it was asked would God withhold forgiveness if we would not. The answer is absolutely YES!

Simply we are not Divine and do not have the mind of God. We can never understand his Divine side, only his human side that he has revealed to us.

No human will ever understand the mind of God. Only what he has revealed to us through the Church by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

You also said your problem is you believe that people can repent, no one is denying this. But what you forget is just because we are all capable of repenting means we will.

While we as Catholics can never say any particular person is in hell, we know there are ones that are. But we also can never guarantee they are in heaven either. Unless of course revealed to us by God himself.

We all are like St Paul struggling in this world HOPING we will be accepted by God.

Even St Paul said he knows of nothing God has against him, but he does not know the mind of God. That is why he was trying to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[OneSheep]

One Sheep, Hi!

Okay to begin with Jesus know our minds and what we are thinking. I believe we can both agree with this.

The problem I believe we are having is this, you are not only seeing Jesus as human, you forget he is divine. When he is speaking to those men, he knows what they are thinking, and that they will never accept him, He said quite clear your father is the devil. Now do you think he would say that if he believed they would accept him? Remember he told them they will not listen.

He might say it to motivate them to be open-minded to Him, to motivate them to consider His words, and take a hard look at what was motivating their condemnation of Him. If I say to you, “you aren’t going to listen to me”, are you suddenly a little motivated to defy my words? Do you see what I mean? Jesus is very wise.

No, I am not forgetting His divinity.

You look at the foot of the cross. What we call the good their and the bad thief. The good thief says Jesus forgive me, I accept my death, I deserve it, and remember me when you come into YOUR kingdom. Jesus accepts his confession and says from this day on you will be with me in paradise. He is forgiven, He admitted his wrong.

Next you have the bad thief, he could care less about God, or repentance, or heaven or hell. He wants off. He says if you are the Son of God get me off of here. He does not want to change, or pay his debt. He wants off the cross so he can go on and cheat and steal and kill do as much evil as he can. He is evil.

Okay, by saying “he is evil”. I am making a characterization distinct from my own assessment of myself, right? Do I ever say I don’t want to change? Yes. Do I ever think I do not want to pay my debt? Yes. Did I ever consider cheating, stealing, and killing? Yes. Therefore, I cannot make the distinction.

The second thief is lacking awareness.

If someone will not change and repent on their death bed and not want God, do you really think they will in the next world?

Yes, if they could be shown reality.

Well Jesus tells us they will not.

Where does he say that in a way that actually depicts their destiny? The Church has never made such a determination, right? The Church has never said that anyone is in hell.

However, I grant that a decision to go to hell is possible. I just cannot come up with a scenario where an aware person so chooses.

In another scripture he teaches someone will say did I not do this, and that in your name? And Jesus said I DO NOT KNOW YOU! Do you see what he is saying, If we don’t know him or want him in this world, we do not want to know him or want him.

And he will not be fooled by them in the next either.

My bible notes say that in Matthew 21-23, “Matthew probably quotes this sentence pointing out to the charismatic prophets who disturb his communities by not obeying precepts which are addressed to everyone.”

Apparently some people were doing good works with one hand and sinning with the other. The statements are intended to motivate do-gooders to behave.

Unfortunately some people do not want God. I know its impossible for us to understand. But only because of our Love for God.

Well, there was a time in my life where I considered God as having little importance in my life, if there was a God at all. So, yes, I can relate to someone not wanting God, and I know my “not wanting” was a matter of ignorance.

Thank you for your response, Rinnie!

 

[OneSheep]

Also it was asked would God withhold forgiveness if we would not. The answer is absolutely YES!

Simply we are not Divine and do not have the mind of God. We can never understand his Divine side, only his human side that he has revealed to us.

So, I see the incarnation as a means by which we can indeed understand His side.

We hung Him on a cross. Could we do worse than torture and kill God? Yet he forgave us, on the spot. And, given that His dear mother endured as much or more than He did, and that she also forgave the crowd along with her Son (I know, I have no proof, it is an assumption.) We can also follow her example.

So, the way I look at it, it is possible that God forgive when I do not, but not the other way around. Otherwise, I am perceiving myself as more forgiving and merciful than God. That does not make sense to me in light of the crucifixion.

No human will ever understand the mind of God. Only what he has revealed to us through the Church by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

True. We can know of God’s love by knowing His Son, and by the work of the Spirit. Whoever sees the Son, though, sees the One who sent Him, right? We know God’s beneficence.

You also said your problem is you believe that people can repent, no one is denying this. But what you forget is just because we are all capable of repenting means we will.

While we as Catholics can never say any particular person is in hell, we know there are ones that are. But we also can never guarantee they are in heaven either. Unless of course revealed to us by God himself.

Yes, because I am not omniscient, I cannot positively say that no one will choose hell.

We all are like St Paul struggling in this world HOPING we will be accepted by God.

Even St Paul said he knows of nothing God has against him, but he does not know the mind of God. That is why he was trying to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

Well, I suppose there may be times in our lives that all of us have such anxiety. Once I forgave everyone I ever held anything against, including myself, the anxiety left forever.

Thanks again, Rinnie. It is a pleasure to converse with you.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, but you need to read the scripture. Remember these are not my words they are the words of God.

Here is what is said. They said we are children of Abraham, Jesus said If you were you would be doing the works of Abraham. First clue, they did not obey God. Abraham taught the ways of God.

Next they said we have on Father God, Jesus said if that were true YOU would lOVE ME!!

Jesus said you belong to your Father THE DEVIL!! Now either Jesus is right and they belong to the devil and do the works of the devil, or Jesus got it wrong. See what I am saying?

You say they can still repent, Jesus said they won’t. He said they refuse to listen to him, they obey their father the devil.

Now don’t you agree if they would eventually repent Jesus would know.

Another example the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in hell, he said send me back and let me tell them. Abraham said if they would not listen to the Prophets they will not listen to you. Now do you believe the Pharisees are going to listen to God in the next world if they refuse to listen to God in this world. As we are told by Abraham no they will not.

 

[rinnie]

Also just because we know the Father through the Son by no means states we know the mind of God. No one does.

If we knew the mind of God the RCC would not need the Holy Spirit to guide them to the fullness of the truth.

Do you think you know the mind of God because you know his Son?

Also Pope Pius Xll Munificentissimus Deus is the church teaching of the Assumption of the Blessed Mother.

 

[rinnie]

Also just because you have forgiven everyone and have no anxiety by no means is proof God will welcome you to heaven. None of us are guaranteed a sure thing.

Our own very blessed Pope will tell you, even he is not assured salvation. Its up to Jesus who gets in and who is out.

We cannot judge ourself.

 

[OneSheep]

Okay, but you need to read the scripture. Remember these are not my words they are the words of God.
Here is what is said. They said we are children of Abraham, Jesus said If you were you would be doing the works of Abraham. First clue, they did not obey God. Abraham taught the ways of God.
Next they said we have on Father God, Jesus said if that were true YOU would lOVE ME!!
Jesus said you belong to your Father THE DEVIL!! Now either Jesus is right and they belong to the devil and do the works of the devil, or Jesus got it wrong. See what I am saying?
You say they can still repent, Jesus said they won’t. He said they refuse to listen to him, they obey their father the devil.

Again, I refer to the comments in my Bible. Here they are again:

“The truth that Jesus speaks of is not a doctrine which his followers should impose by force. Propagandists with arguments and biblical quotations are not needed, but witnesses who speak of their experience. Jesus says: The truth will make you free, and the Son will make you free. The believer who knows he is loved by God and consequently endeavors to be authentic is already in the truth…”

Jesus was speaking to His worldly enemies using the vernacular of the day. People do not say that someone’s father is the devil anymore. If someone from our hierarchy said that today, they would get a lot of ridicule. We word things differently now. We cannot take Jesus’ words out of the context in which they were spoken. He was talking to people who despised Him, who were ignorant, and who were enslaved by their appetite for “justice”. They were possessed by their appetite for justice. That is today called “holding a grudge”.

Now don’t you agree if they would eventually repent Jesus would know.

Yes, I agree, He would know. Don’t you agree that His words might motivate them to take a hard look at themselves?

Another example the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in hell, he said send me back and let me tell them. Abraham said if they would not listen to the Prophets they will not listen to you. Now do you believe the Pharisees are going to listen to God in the next world if they refuse to listen to God in this world. As we are told by Abraham no they will not.

Jesus spoke in parables. This parable is intended to motivate us to care for the poor and behave morally. It is also meant to turn the “ways of the world” upside down. The ways of the world, then and now, are to elevate the rich and famous and to scoff at the poor and helpless. Again, if we insist that someone will not listen, the person seeks to prove us wrong.

Also just because we know the Father through the Son by no means states we know the mind of God. No one does.

If we knew the mind of God the RCC would not need the Holy Spirit to guide them to the fullness of the truth.

Do you think you know the mind of God because you know his Son?

Well, we have part of the picture.

Also Pope Pius Xll Munificentissimus Deus is the church teaching of the Assumption of the Blessed Mother.

That is another “Assumption”. What I was saying was that I am assuming that Mary forgave the crowd that killed her Son. I think it is a valid assumption.

Also just because you have forgiven everyone and have no anxiety by no means is proof God will welcome you to heaven. None of us are guaranteed a sure thing.

Our own very blessed Pope will tell you, even he is not assured salvation. Its up to Jesus who gets in and who is out.

We cannot judge ourself.

Abba, as I know Him through relationship, welcomes everyone into heaven. Yes, to say that I am not assured salvation is a statement of humility. It is an admission that I don’t know everything. I definitely admit that.! Still, I don’t worry about Salvation. I worry about the hell that people experience here on earth, today.

What I do know is that I welcome all into my world, as best I can. I know that I can and do try to love everyone to the best of my ability, but I can always do more. I forgive everyone I hold something against. And since projection is the fact of human limitation, I project that God is at least as merciful as I am, at least as welcoming,* at least* as forgiving. My faith, however, says that Abba is much more of all of the above than I. Infinitely more.

Yes, it is up to Jesus. I do not doubt Jesus’ love and mercy.

Oh yes, we do judge ourselves every day at some time or another. Judgment is a triggered reaction on the part of the conscience. When I judge myself or anyone else negatively, I know that it is time to understand and forgive.

Thanks again for your responses! Do you see that there are other ways of looking at our faith? Yet we all have the same Dad…

 

[simpleas]

Wrong! Sorry, but the word of God will never change. What you are speaking of is Church Disciplines. The Pope has the right in the RCC to change them as he sees fit.

Many Bishops also have permission to do this in their area.

IT has nothing to do with the true word of God.

Back when we were told don’t eat meat on Friday, it was something we gave up for God. The reason was there were so many fishes being wasted and washed up. So in order not to waste it was said lets give up meat, eat fish so we don’t waste, and give meat up on Friday for God.

But it was a Church Discipline. It ended. My Dad chose to always keep it, and did it for the rest of his life of 83 years. It was okay and his penance you could say to God.

Now the Church Discipline is no meat on Fridays during Lent only. That’s what it is for now. We must obey Church discipline.

And missing Church on Sunday if you have no good excuse, like sick, taking care of someone sick, can’t get out of work… it is indeed a mortal sin.

You must go to confession before you go back to communion.

But the Church will never change IF you mean the teaching. If you mean Church Discipline it always has and will. But you must be clear in this. Because no Pope. Bishop, etc can change the teaching of the word of God. Because God is unchanging.

No, I wasn’t speaking on the word of God, I was speaking about how our priest’s inform us of things we should be thinking on or doing.

 

[rinnie]

No, I wasn’t speaking on the word of God, I was speaking about how our priest’s inform us of things we should be thinking on or doing.

But you have to remember not all Priests are given the gift of speaking. Some Priests can motivate people some cannot, It is a grace given to some for God.

Some are good at financial, some at being personable. some distant…

But what you have to remember and what is most important is the power to give us the true Body and Blood of Christ, and forgiveness for our sins.

We have tons of Popes, Fathers of the Church that can teach us.

 

[rinnie]

The point we have to stress here is this, And we have to keep on thread, or we will get in trouble

As much as its hard to understand and hurt us to think about people will go to hell and have eternal separation from God.

Catholic teaching is clear heaven and hell in the end.

If at the moment at our death Jesus deems us worthy for hell its over your done, you will never share in his glory in heaven.

He will not relent on that decision because he can never be wrong, and knows all. So while he can accept a person who has not been perfected to go to heaven at the hour of their death, we as Catholic’s believe in Purgatory.

Purgatory is for someone who although is sorry for what he has done and truly wants God and is asking for true forgiveness but needs the cleansing needed for heaven, can indeed go to heaven. We call that a temporal fire that gets them ready for heaven, and although its suffering, it is also a gift because you know you will have eternal bliss in God.We do not see purgatory anything like hell, its burning is more of a burning desire to be with God.

But there is also a Eternal fire which is hell, which is eternal suffering and this person will not get Purgatory nor heaven its eternal separation from God which we call hell.

We cannot teach or lead someone to believe that there is not eternal hell and suffering. It is wrong to do this, and against our faith.

 

[rinnie]

Again, I refer to the comments in my Bible. Here they are again:

“The truth that Jesus speaks of is not a doctrine which his followers should impose by force. Propagandists with arguments and biblical quotations are not needed, but witnesses who speak of their experience. Jesus says: The truth will make you free, and the Son will make you free. The believer who knows he is loved by God and consequently endeavors to be authentic is already in the truth…”

Jesus was speaking to His worldly enemies using the vernacular of the day. People do not say that someone’s father is the devil anymore. If someone from our hierarchy said that today, they would get a lot of ridicule. We word things differently now. We cannot take Jesus’ words out of the context in which they were spoken. He was talking to people who despised Him, who were ignorant, and who were enslaved by their appetite for “justice”. They were possessed by their appetite for justice. That is today called “holding a grudge”.

Yes, I agree, He would know. Don’t you agree that His words might motivate them to take a hard look at themselves?

Jesus spoke in parables. This parable is intended to motivate us to care for the poor and behave morally. It is also meant to turn the “ways of the world” upside down. The ways of the world, then and now, are to elevate the rich and famous and to scoff at the poor and helpless. Again, if we insist that someone will not listen, the person seeks to prove us wrong.

Well, we have part of the picture.

That is another “Assumption”. What I was saying was that I am assuming that Mary forgave the crowd that killed her Son. I think it is a valid assumption.

Abba, as I know Him through relationship, welcomes everyone into heaven. Yes, to say that I am not assured salvation is a statement of humility. It is an admission that I don’t know everything. I definitely admit that.! Still, I don’t worry about Salvation. I worry about the hell that people experience here on earth, today.

What I do know is that I welcome all into my world, as best I can. I know that I can and do try to love everyone to the best of my ability, but I can always do more. I forgive everyone I hold something against. And since projection is the fact of human limitation, I project that God is at least as merciful as I am, at least as welcoming,* at least* as forgiving. My faith, however, says that Abba is much more of all of the above than I. Infinitely more.

Yes, it is up to Jesus. I do not doubt Jesus’ love and mercy.

Oh yes, we do judge ourselves every day at some time or another. Judgment is a triggered reaction on the part of the conscience. When I judge myself or anyone else negatively, I know that it is time to understand and forgive.

Thanks again for your responses! Do you see that there are other ways of looking at our faith? Yet we all have the same Dad…

This Abba who welcomes everyone into heaven is not the Abba of the RCC. Nor was ever a teaching of God. This relationship you claim to have I cannot understand. No disrespect. It is what we call a false doctrine.

I do not agree that hell is here on earth. Hell is eternal separation from God, and I do not believe that anyone in this world is separated from God unless they choose to be, And even then have until they take their last day to accept God and be united to him.

I am taught they I can never understand the nor imagine the mercy of God, for I am only human. A human mind can never even begin to understand the divine.

Also although off thread, I will make this quick. My proof of the Blessed Mother is in the bible. A great sign appeared IN THE SKY. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a own of twelve stars.

That is proof of the Blessed Mothers assumption in heaven. It continues to say how she gave birth to a son destined to rule all nations, and he child was caught up to God and his throne. That’s the Blessed Mother and Jesus. But lets not continue this, if you have any other questions of this feel free to make another post.

 

[rinnie]

And of course Jesus never pushed his truth on anyone, He never took away anyones free will, and never will.

And we are taught to never impose his teaching on anyone. You never see the Pope or RCC ever pushing our faith on anyone who refuses to accept it.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I would imagine that if you did experience hell, the only way out would have been through some sort of spiritual death, letting go of your self, surrendering yourself to Christ.

You might have a point there, since I “experienced” spiritual death after experiencing hell, these happened after meeting God the Father and the Holy Spirit and satan.

Hell is a state of complete despair out which one is incapable of pulling oneself. It is eternal, unchanging. You are alive, in time.

You are wrong saying that “Hell is a state of complete despair”, that is what “spiritual death” is.

One way of talking about hell would be to say that it is "seeing all of your wrongdoing thru the “Eyes” of Pure Love.

Another way would be to say that the “Consuming Fire of Love”, which Is God, burns rather than caresses someone.

I am surprised that you seem to express no horror at the thought of Christ, the innocent lamb, eternally taking on the pain and filth of sin, rather than we sinners who deserve it.

I express gratitude and thankfulness that Jesus did NOT take on the sins of All except me, but that Jesus took on the sins of All including me.

I express “horror” at those that seem to think nothing of anyone being in something worse than they can imagine for ever and ever and ever and…, and calling it “good”, calling it “justice”, calling it “better” than to be completely and utterly destroyed, as in unexisted.

That and looking at what God did as being in vain, I find “horrible”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

rinnie

You wrote, “If someone will not change and repent on their death bed and not want God, do you really think they will in the next world?”

Then in another post you wrote, “Another example the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in hell, he said send me back and let me tell them.”

Seems as if you answered your own question with a , “Yes, they just might”, since the rich man in the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” seems to have had a “change” in what could be both “thought and heart”.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . . I express “horror” at those that seem to think nothing of anyone being in something worse than they can imagine for ever and ever and ever and…, and calling it “good”, calling it “justice”, calling it “better” than to be completely and utterly destroyed, as in unexisted.

That and looking at what God did as being in vain, I find “horrible”.

I don’t imagine what you may think I imagine.
What I have observed are people becoming evermore Christ-like and others becoming demonic.
Ultimately, most hope to participate in the Trinity, for want of a better way to express it, through Christ, joining all the angels and saints in the Beatific Vision.
Conversely, we can become sin itself. At that point there is no more humanity, no person left.
For those who become sin itself, this experience is no different from what we may all experience but relinquish in life, sin within us. Those in hell do not relinquish what they have become.
Again, Christ takes on all our sins; hell exists in eternity.
At any rate, hopefully you do fear the Lord. It is a grace of the Holy Spirit and it is good to do so; it means one is in touch with reality. There is absolutely nothing else to fear - this world is transient and sin has been vanquished

 

[rinnie]

rinnie

You wrote, “If someone will not change and repent on their death bed and not want God, do you really think they will in the next world?”

Then in another post you wrote, “Another example the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in hell, he said send me back and let me tell them.”

Seems as if you answered your own question with a , “Yes, they just might”, since the rich man in the parable of the “rich man and Lazarus” seems to have had a “change” in what could be both “thought and heart”.

No, the rich man was in hell. See the rich man was not sorry he did not acknowledge God because of his want of God.

The rich man was sorry for the consequences of his actions. Not his actions themselves.

If you read in the story he says to Abraham have Lazarus give me water. He still felt he was above Lazarus. He was not repentant of his sins, just sorry for what came his way.

You never heard him say I am so sorry for how I treated you Lazarus and if I could do it all over again I would have treated you like a brother.

No he has love for his own, oh yes, but where was his remorse for Lazarus. Like Jesus says if you have love for those who have love for you where is the reward in that.

He still treats Lazarus as someone who should wait on him. Even when Lazarus has been deemed righteous by God and The rich man unrighteous, he still feels he is better. He sees him as a servant because he was poor. Someone who should serve him, not be served. Do you see what I am saying.

Regret is not always repentance. Some people are sorry they got caught, or went to jail. But not sorry for what they did.

 

[simpleas]

But you have to remember not all Priests are given the gift of speaking. Some Priests can motivate people some cannot, It is a grace given to some for God.

Some are good at financial, some at being personable. some distant…

But what you have to remember and what is most important is the power to give us the true Body and Blood of Christ, and forgiveness for our sins.

We have tons of Popes, Fathers of the Church that can teach us.

Yes but priests are supposed to be spiritual advisors too. Not many tell us there is a hell, maybe they need to remind us now and again.

 

[rinnie]

Yes but priests are supposed to be spiritual advisors too. Not many tell us there is a hell, maybe they need to remind us now and again.

Do you belong to the RCC? Because they sure teach it around here.

 

[glendab]

Hello Rinnie!

Sure the example right of the bat would be of course the devil. The devil also has people who choose to follow him instead of God.

How can you not see people that reject God? You read the bible right? Do you believe what God teaches and says?

Then if you are correct what is God saying when he says this?

John 8 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot BEAR to HEAR MY word. WHY??

Because You belong to YOUR father the DEVIL, and you WILLINGLY carry out HIS desires…

Read John chapter 8 its quite clear.

Jesus says in black and white Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God, for this reason YOU do not LISTEN because you DO NOT belong to God.

And you are right, The thread is a false. But it should read God will not relent, not cannot relent.

God can do whatever he wants whenever. But God made it clear, if someone goes to hell, it is their choice not his.

What people try to do, is blame God for someone using their own free will to reject him. IT makes no sense.

If God gives you free will to be with him, or choose to be separated without him, how can he force them, and not take away their free will?

As I stated earlier, God knows everything if a person wants him, or NEVER will. That is why he is God, He makes no mistakes. NEVER EVER!

So you would say the Jesus was wrong to say the people in the scripture they do not belong to God?? If not would you say they are in heaven? If so then how do you get your teaching and where do you get it? Because the word of God says they won’t listen to God.

Yippie! Bravo! You go Girl! :clapping: :yyeess:

Glenda