Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[arte]

Hello Arte.

Keep in mind wiser men then either you or I have said more than once that disobedience was the primary sin of the fallen angels and turned them into devils.

Glenda

I forgot to add that I do not believe that angels fell and became demons. Angels are holy creations and there is no sin in Heaven. Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

You wrote, "Are you going to mention all of the “ALL"s you find in Scripture and Tradition and claim they support your notion of Universal Salvation? Really.”

My post was concerning two prayers and they were:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

and

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

As far as I know neither prayer is in Scripture or Tradition and they are, as far as I know, relatively recent prayers, any comments concerning the very straightforward and simple words of either or both prayers?

As it is written: “They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear”.

Ever heard of Spiritual Virginity?

As far as I know, I would say that the Church considers two woman to have been “Spriitual Virgins” in the history of mankind and one of those lost hers, do you know who these two are?

No. I don’t know who the two women are. Clue me in.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

Satanists do not know who God is. They are rejecting a false image…I will keep praying…Revelation unfolds, it has in our history…God Bless! Get well!

I’m sorry but I disagree. Satanist reject our God, Jesus Christ. They aren’t rejecting an image of God; they fully intend with all their wills reject Jesus Christ specifically and worship His eternal enemy, Satan. Thus the name Satanists. Not to derail this thread, but the example of the rental of a public place in Oklahoma to demonstrate among other things, the intentional defilement of a Sacred Host, shows they do know Who it is they are rejecting and they intend to do so. They accept Hell as their final destination and do so willingly. They know they are spending their eternity there and accept that as a spiritual good. Just ask them! To them, they’d rather be in Satan’s company for eternity than God’s and that is OUR GOD, Jesus Christ. Your argument isn’t supported by resorting to Satanists as an example.

Thanks for the prayers. My surgery has been delayed for a little while but that little while is rapidly deteriorating. Yuk. No stiches in the next few weeks at least, but I’m not going to get out of them entirely. I hope before Thanksgiving so I’ll be up for roasting the Bird! Thanks.

Revelation doesn’t change. It doesn’t evolve. The word “unfolding” has been used to imply that we’ve grown in collective understanding and ways to discuss revelation, but those who use that word to describe this growth of expression know it is the basic revelation that will never change. This is the development of doctrine. But the actual doctrine doesn’t change because it comes from God and He is changeless. The revelation of Doctrine ended with the death of the last Apostle way back when. We all know this. So I repeat, science has nothing to add to our revelation, our Magisterium, nor to our devotions.

Not gonna get well, but thanks for the thought. For me it is a matter of keeping the inevitable at bay. I have lots to offer up every day and I do. Keeping the spirits up is paramount. Thanks for your concern.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Arte.

I forgot to add that I do not believe that angels fell and became demons. Angels are holy creations and there is no sin in Heaven. Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul.

Thanks for the reply. I’m glad you can be so open and honest about what you don’t accept or believe. It gives a point of departure to which others can reply. Can I ask you to flesh out this particular nuance of your belief about the Angels and demons? It would help.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Rod.

Glendab: You have a point about all, but does it account for all the alls in scripture. (Parse that sentence!)

Genesis 12:3 — All peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham.
Genesis 22:18 — All nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring.
Psalms 22:27 — All the ends of the earth and all the families of the nations will acknowledge God.
Psalms 65:2 — All men will come to God.
Psalms 86:9 — All nations will worship and glorify God.
Psalms 103:8-9 — God is compassionate, will not always accuse and will not be angry forever.
Psalms 145:9-10 — The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.
Psalms 145:13 — The Lord loves all His creation.
Psalms 145:14 — The Lord upholds all who fall.
Isaiah 25:6-8 — God will prepare a feast for all people, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers up all nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from all faces and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth.
Isaiah 45:22-23 — God has sworn an oath that every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him.
Isaiah 49:6 — God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 54:8 — Although God will hide His face in a surge of anger, He will also have compassion with everlasting kindness.
Isaiah 57:16-18 — God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him.
Jeremiah 31:33-34 — All men will know God, from the greatest to the least.
Lamentations 3:31-33 — The Lord does not cast off forever. Although He brings grief, he will also be compassionate.
Ezekiah 18:21 — God does not any pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rather, He is pleased when they repent.
Micah 7:18 — God does not stay angry forever.
Matthew 18:13 — Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost.
Luke 2:10 — The birth of Jesus is good news for all the people.
Luke 3: 5, 6 — John the Baptist quotes Isaiah’s words that all mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 1:29 — Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:35 — God sent Jesus to save the world.
John 4:42 — God has committed all things to Christ.
John 5:25 — Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and all who hear will live.
John 6:37 — Everything that God has given to Christ will come to him.
John 12:32 — When Jesus is lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to himself.
John 12:47 — Jesus came to save the world.
John 17:2 — God granted Christ authority over all people so that Christ may give eternal life to all that God has given him.
Acts 3:20-21 — Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything.
Romans 3:3-4 — The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness.
Romans 5:18 — The act of obedience of one man (Jesus) will bring life for all men.
Romans 8:19-21 — Creation itself will be liberated and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Romans 8:38-39 — Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.
Romans 11:32 — God made all people imprisoned by disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 — All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.
2 Corinthians 5:15 — Christ died for all.
2 Corinthians 5:19 — Through Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself.
Ephesians 1:11 — God will bring all things under heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesians 4:10 — Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole universe.
Philippians. 2:9-11 — Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit)
Colossians 1: 19-20 — God was pleased to reconcile to Himself, all things on earth and in heaven through the blood of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 — God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth. Can God’s desire be thwarted?
1 Timothy 4:10 — God is the Saviour of all men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe.
Titus 2:11-12 — God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Hebrews 2:9 — Jesus tasted death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 — Christ is the atoning sacrifice of the sins of the whole world.
1 John 3:8 — Christ appeared to destroy the devil’s works. The doctrine of eternal damnation denies the victory of Christ!
1 John 4:14 — Christ is the Saviour of the world.
Revelations 5:13 — Every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ).
Revelations 21:4-5 — God will dwell with men and he will wipe every tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new.

Read more: city-data.com/forum/christianity/1300999-nice-compendium-all-verses-supporting-universal.html#ixzz3B4KV0TvP

Thank you so much for this! Beautiful! Are you sure you found them all? There are probably a few you’ve left out!

Glenda

 

[Starrsmother]

Many thanks for pointing this out. I have checked on heresy in our Church and my disbelief in Hell may well be heresy. I will see a priest from another parish because my parish priest has shown by the book he lent me that he does not believe in hell. I will also see my parish priest and inform him that my (and his) disbelief in hell may be heresy. I will try but I doubt if it will change my mind about my disbelief in hell. The only judge is God and I am CERTAIN that my disbelief in hell is the truth.

Many thanks again. I checked that as well and was surprised to see that it still is a mortal sin unless you have a very good reason for not going such as illness etc. We have had 4 changes of parish priest since my return to the Church so that particular priest has long gone. I actually told him that I wasn’t concerned about missing mass because I now loved every second of being at mass. It had become the highlight of my week to be amongst fellow Catholics – “I had returned home”. Going to mass is not an obligation – it’s a privilege.

The only “beef” I have with the Church is hell and certain things related to hell which I will cover later or in another post. Can you please explain the “holes” in my understanding and beliefs that you have seen in my other posts.

Atheists say that you cannot “cherry pick”. You either accept all of it or none of it. I disagree but I am wary of the fact that you may be correct in that many other parts may follow. When I returned to the Church in 2004, we were informed by our female instructor that lay people were now having more say in the Church’s laws and one area was the use of birth control pills by married couples. I have just checked and I believe it is still against our Church’s teaching? If it is, I wonder how many married practising Catholic women take birth control pills?

QUOTE=glendab;12265649]Hello Arte.

One other thing I’d like to say, about that sausage on a roll. The mortality of the sin wasn’t in the meat, it was in the act of disobedience to the Church’s disciplines that made the sin mortal. Keep in mind wiser men then either you or I have said more than once that disobedience was the primary sin of the fallen angels and turned them into devils.

Glenda

I also checked on this and you are perfectly correct. The mortal sin would be for knowingly breaking a Church law (discipline). Although, in my case, it likely didn’t apply but Brother Luke was right in sending me to the priest… During my research on this topic, I ended up on another thread in this forum concerning eating meat on a Friday causing a mortal sin which could lead to a soul going to hell. Some posts are asking if it is fair justice for a person who died with this mortal sin on their soul when the Church later changed the ruling to only Fridays in Lent? I guess the set answer is that it was a Church law when they committed the act.

I have to sort out an old post in reply to Amandil and then I would like to précis some of the replies on this forum concerning my disbelief in hell.

I mean you NO disrespect by this post, but even Jesus spoke of the existence of hell during his years on earth. He never said who or how many would be in it and I pray that it will be very few indeed, but He did state that it existed. The Catholic church is not a buffet line where you get to pick and choose which dogmas you like and wish to believe and which ones don’t appeal to you and you prefer to not accept. Thus you MUST accept the dogma of hell to call yourself Catholic. It isn’t a “fun” dogma and personally I wish it wasn’t a possibility either. Frankly however, my wishes don’t count–nor do yours.

 

[simpleas]

Do you belong to the RCC? Because they sure teach it around here.

Well since I was at mass last weekend and last time I prayed I think I do belong in the church. I am amazed at how people view things, I don’t think anyone is correct or incorrect, and I know from a child we are taught about hell. What I find is I don’t hear many homilies on hell, I hear most focus on living as good as possible and in doing so helping each other live on this earth. Not much in my parishes focus on the after life, although we refer to it in the creed…

 

[Kurisu35712]

Just adding my two cents…

I feel like I’m a bit closer to the middle of these two positions on Hell. Personally (and I may be wrong) I view Hell more in line with the idea that the eternal torment a soul in Hell experiences is due to that soul’s willing separation from its Creator. Which fits with the idea that the fires of Hell are the fires of God’s everlasting love, turned from a source of joy and life into a source of pain, as it would be an eternal reminder of the relationship with God that soul chose to give up. Likewise, as all love comes from God, which entails that all of our loving relationships in life find their source in God, being separated from that love would also entail being separated from those humans we love in life.

All in all, its a counterpart to my view that Heaven is eternity with God’s love and, as the source of all our relationships, we would likewise be reunited with those souls in Heaven, in that we would be united with God. I feel like I’m talking in circles a bit, but hopefully that made some sense. I’ve had the thought before that how could Heaven be truly perfect if even one of our loved ones ended up in Hell? And, hope and prayers for everyone aside, even if they DID end up in Hell, and we in Heaven, we are united with God, who gave us that relationship in the first place. Therefore, we would in a way be reunited with that person, since the source our love for them came from God in the first place. It’s all a bit esoteric, but that’s how I reconcile the thought.

Back on topic though, many Saints described their relationship with God as a fire, illustrating the overwhelming intensity of God’s love for us. When our souls are in a state of grace (or at least not a state of mortal sin), that love is an overwhelming source of life, comfort, good, etc. etc. The logical counter to that is that when our souls are turned against God’s infinite Love, that fire would be a source of torment, sadness, shame, etc. etc. with ourselves for rejecting that infinite Good. I imagine it’s similar to how one feels after you yell at a sibling out of impatience, except in Hell it’s intensified and for eternity.

If it turns out that we die and no one is in Hell, then I will certainly rejoice. But it is very hard to understand a perspective without God, having been raised so Catholic. Despite all my sins and just general hardships in life, I never really feel alone, because I truly believe in the Trinity, the Communion of Saints, the Angels and so on, and it is always a huge source of comfort knowing that I have so many people backing me up spiritually. I personally can’t imagine what life would be like without that, but there are a lot of people who don’t have that source of strength.

One last thing, the list Rodb posted was extremely beautiful. While I am in accordance with the Church’s teachings on Hell, those do make it sound like, in some way, God will reunite all human souls to Himself.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I forgot to add that I do not believe that angels fell and became demons. Angels are holy creations and there is no sin in Heaven. Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul.

You wrote, “Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul”.

Something to think about: Since Jesus, God-Incarnate, took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself than no matter how “filled with sin” one is, couldn’t one could still go to be with Jesus?

I ask this since you wrote that sin can keep one from something, your example (heaven), since one could never be as filled with sin as Jesus, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins.

Could very well be that God had more than one thing in mind, so to speak, when according to God’s Plan, God-Incarnate took ALL of humanity’s sins (personal and original) upon Himself, God gave us the mental ability to “ponder”, maybe we should not be so afraid to “ponder”, any thoughts or “ponderings” concerning this?

Doesn’t it say somewhere that God granted, or something to that effect, to the simple the “mysteries” of the Kingdom?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

No. I don’t know who the two women are. Clue me in.

Glenda

Eve and Mary.

 

[Starrsmother]

You wrote, “Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul”.

Something to think about: Since Jesus, God-Incarnate, took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself than no matter how “filled with sin” one is, couldn’t one could still go to be with Jesus?

I ask this since you wrote that sin can keep one from something, your example (heaven), since one could never be as filled with sin as Jesus, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins.

Could very well be that God had more than one thing in mind, so to speak, when according to God’s Plan, God-Incarnate took ALL of humanity’s sins (personal and original) upon Himself, God gave us the mental ability to “ponder”, maybe we should not be so afraid to “ponder”, any thoughts or “ponderings” concerning this?
or something to that effect, to the simple the “mysteries” of t

 

[Starrsmother]

Tom Baum;12280844:

You wrote, “Again, the same as hell, there are obvious contradictions in Angels becoming evil and sinning in Heaven; a place we cannot enter even with the smallest venial sin on our soul”.

Something to think about: Since Jesus, God-Incarnate, took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself than no matter how “filled with sin” one is, couldn’t one could still go to be with Jesus?

I ask this since you wrote that sin can keep one from something, your example (heaven), since one could never be as filled with sin as Jesus, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins.

Could very well be that God had more than one thing in mind, so to speak, when according to God’s Plan, God-Incarnate took ALL of humanity’s sins (personal and original) upon Himself, God gave us the mental ability to “ponder”, maybe we should not be so afraid to “ponder”, any thoughts or “ponderings” concerning this?
or something to that effect, to the simple the “mysteries” of t

 

[Starrsmother]

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[glendab]

Hello Tom.

…since one could never be** as filled with sin as Jesus**, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins…

I find this statement troubling. Jesus took on the punishment for the sins of man. I cannot even type it the way you wrote it. It is almost a blasphemy. And this coming from someone who thinks that even the fallen angels will be saved by Him. Is this what you really mean?

Ummmmm…anyone else find this troubling?

Glenda

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

It isn’t possible for God to relent on eternal punishment because he didn’t decide to send anyone to hell. They decided that for themselves and when they are in Hell they wouldn’t leave and go to Heaven even if God left the doors open. People and devils are in hell because that’s where they want to be.

 

[Rodb]

Hi Tom and Glenda: If I may attempt to answer for Tom as to what I hear him saying. Tom, please correct me if it’s not what you’re saying. I believe Tom means that since Jesus took all our sins on Himself. (2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him) how could our sins keep us out of heaven.
And if I may mindread, lol, to which Glenda would reply, "Yes, but one must ACCEPT the sacrifice while still in this life, for it to apply.
I also think Tom may be saying that since Jesus took all our sins on Himself and He went to heaven, how is that possible, since no sin is allowed in heaven.

 

[arte]

Hello Arte.

Thanks for the reply. I’m glad you can be so open and honest about what you don’t accept or believe. It gives a point of departure to which others can reply. Can I ask you to flesh out this particular nuance of your belief about the Angels and demons? It would help.

Glenda

Hi Glendab

From the Catechism: "All the angels were created by the Word of God and perfected by the Holy Spirit through sanctification; corresponding to their dignity and to their order of rank”. So angels were perfected by the Holy Spirit through sanctification (made holy or sacred) corresponding to their dignity and to their order of rank. Therefore an archangel is holier than a normal angel. Yet an archangel and a third of the angels commit a massive mortal sin in Heaven. There is no sin in Heaven so how come an archangel and a third of the angels can commit a massive mortal sin there? I could not find a reliable figure for the number of angels created but from what I researched, a large number were created. I have always thought that angels were more holy than us humans. If an archangel and a large number of angels can commit a massive mortal sin in Heaven then what about the human souls in Heaven? They must be sinning all over the place. Hardly the recipe for a Heaven that we all believe in and hope eventually to go to. Perhaps angels are less holy than human souls. I can’t find anything about the comparison between the holiness of human souls and angels. What I cannot understand is that God knew this was going to happen before He crated the angels and because of their fall, He would have to create hell to put them into. The same goes for us humans. God knew before He created us that the vast majority of His creation was destined for hell for eternity. I hope this helps yourself and other forum members so they can reply to this post.

 

[Aloysium]

John 15:1-25 - “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

There is one humanity of which we are all manifestations, saved by He who is the true living vine.
Humanity has been redeemed, each member in Christ, saved.
It is clear what is sin and what are its consequences. I suppose we are free to imagine what these are. I will follow what the Church teaches.

 

[tonyrey]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent?

It is not a question of God relenting but of the sinner repenting…

Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change?

 

[OneSheep]

But the problem is what you seem to be saying is everyone must choose God, or they do not know what they are doing. Which brings on a big problem, no free will.

This is a very good point rinnie! Yes, free will is compromised by our own ignorance! If I don’t know, for example, the practice of forgiving my enemy instead of getting even with him, then such lack of awareness puts a real damper on my freedom to choose. How does one know what one does not know? One does not. So yes, we can assert “free will” but free will is limited by many things, limitations in human skill, physical capability, intellect, knowledge base, a number of different things. It only makes sense to me that all of this gets worked out, in the Light of Love, between the individual and his Creator.

Here is where a bigger problem comes in, Please no disrespect okay?

The Church has the gift to interpret scripture. No human outside of the Church can do this. The Church as the gift of the Holy Spirit to do so. So to some it appears you are saying the Church is wrong, when you challenge the teaching, and that means the Holy Spirit is wrong, and you are right. Do you see what people are trying to say to you

Yes, that is why I have had to repeat many times that the Church is not wrong. What I am saying is that doctrine needs clarification. Yesterday, I was talking with my son about the CCC, of which I hadn’t realized he read much. He and a bunch of other upper-degree Philosophy students who were practicing Catholics got together and read the CCC on a regular basis. They concluded that the CCC needed some good philosophers to iron out some issues. I did not plant this idea in my son’s head; we differ a good deal on many issues and he far from takes my word for anything. However, concerning the CCC needing clarifications, we agree. (I think some theologians, not philosophers, though should tackle the issues)

In addition, I think it is time for the CCC to line out the difference between differing spiritual journeys, which lead to differing views of God, and heterodoxy. We can have people with differing views of God belong to the same Church, why not? Why does every person have to be a round peg that fits into a round hole? Do we not have an enormous variety in relationships with Abba? Why not have the CCC reflect this reality by being less specific instead of more? Every word added to every doctrine can be read in a nearly infinite number of ways, as many ways, theoretically, as there are people on Earth. If anything, the doctrine perhaps could be simplified to allow for more differences in peoples’ relationship with God.

It is the creed that unites us, it is ultimately the Eucharist that unites us. Anyone who seeks to divide us based on doctrinal interpretation, well, that is their issue. I, for one, find nothing that divides me from anyone else who calls himself Christian. I, for one, find nothing that divides me from anyone who calls himself human. The Eucharist unites. Love unites!

Bottom line my love, you don’t as a Catholic always have to understand all the teaching of the Church, just obey.

True that. But while I am obeying, there is nothing wrong with investigating and trying to work out the contradictions.

To me, doctrine is to make sense in light of an unconditionally loving God. It is by knowing that God loves unconditionally that we can learn to forgive others without condition. It is through forgiving others that we continue to be involved in creating the Kingdom. It is through understanding that we are enabled to forgive in the more mature way, a way that for adults erases all resentment. Included in that understanding of others is the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin. All sin can be seen to occur in this context, in the context of lack of awareness.

That’s the problem when you say the Church contradicts in doctrine, you say the Holy Spirit divides. This is impossible.

WE believe as Catholics that Jesus meant what he said when he said that the Advocate the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. Your saying the Holy Spirit leads into contradictions means Jesus lied.

But I didn’t say that the Holy Spirit divides, rinnie. Revelation unfolds, and as it unfolds, some items appear to contradict until it all works out.

And unfortunately the bible itself proves you wrong. It states not all humans have this gift, it is given to the Church and the Pope and Bishops. All people have different gifts and none of us have the gift of the HS to define scripture. If of course you go by the word of God.

All of have access to God within, though, regardless. Nothing excludes the Spirit from speaking to every individual in some way, and yes, we rely on the Spirit to work out the differences with the hierarchy as revelation unfolds. Doctrine evolves in history, right rinnie? Doctrine is not the same now as it was hundreds of years ago. God does not change, Jesus does not change, but we learn more over the ages. Remember all the clarifications that had to be made in the first few hundred years? To me, much is yet to be worked through.

Thanks for your response!