Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

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Nothing is impossible for God.
I agree completely.
If they are in Hell due to their own free-will there are no right conditions. They alone decide their fate.
Well, there may be some right conditions, because nothing is impossible with God, right? God could create the right conditions for an individual to consider repentence. We know that God wants every lost sheep back, right? I am thinking that God has a better way with words than we do, for example.🙂

But we are in agreement. If there is anyone there, it is because of their own free will.
 
I agree completely.

Well, there may be some right conditions, because nothing is impossible with God, right? God could create the right conditions for an individual to consider repentence. We know that God wants every lost sheep back, right? I am thinking that God has a better way with words than we do, for example.🙂

But we are in agreement. If there is anyone there, it is because of their own free will.
👍 When all is said and done, that is all that matters. There is no conflict between divine mercy and divine justice.
 
Hello Tom.

I find this statement troubling. Jesus took on the punishment for the sins of man. I cannot even type it the way you wrote it. It is almost a blasphemy. And this coming from someone who thinks that even the fallen angels will be saved by Him. Is this what you really mean?

Ummmmm…anyone else find this troubling?

Glenda
A more accurate explanation is given in St Peter’s first letter:
18Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, 20Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, 21Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God.
Jesus gave His life for us so that we might be liberated from our ignorance, weakness and self-love by His infinite wisdom, power and love. As St John the Baptist said:

“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.”

He took on the burden of our guilt but remained totally innocent.
 
Hello Tony.
A more accurate explanation is given in St Peter’s first letter:

Jesus gave His life for us so that we might be liberated from our ignorance, weakness and self-love by His infinite wisdom, power and love. As St John the Baptist said:

“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.”

He took on the burden of our guilt but remained totally innocent.
Not to quibble, but go back to see how Tom Baum re-words it for the comment I made. It’s re-wording is troubling. That’s what I meant and that’s what I said. I do not have any doubt or concern the Jesus died for us. That I know.

Glenda
 
Hello Tom.

I find this statement troubling. Jesus took on the punishment for the sins of man. I cannot even type it the way you wrote it. It is almost a blasphemy. And this coming from someone who thinks that even the fallen angels will be saved by Him. Is this what you really mean?

Ummmmm…anyone else find this troubling?

Glenda
I was taught that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity upon Himself on the cross, were you taught this?

If “Jesus took on the punishment for the sins of man”, as you said and the punishment for sins can be “hell and/or spiritual death”, are you saying that Jesus went to hell and that Jesus experienced both hell and spiritual death?

As far as it being “almost a blasphemy”, what do you think the “cross” was about?
 
Hi Tom and Glenda: If I may attempt to answer for Tom as to what I hear him saying. Tom, please correct me if it’s not what you’re saying. I believe Tom means that since Jesus took all our sins on Himself. (2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him) how could our sins keep us out of heaven.
And if I may mindread, lol, to which Glenda would reply, "Yes, but one must ACCEPT the sacrifice while still in this life, for it to apply.
I also think Tom may be saying that since Jesus took all our sins on Himself and He went to heaven, how is that possible, since no sin is allowed in heaven.
You quoted, “(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)”.

I take this to mean ALL OF THE SINS OF ALL upon Himself, which I believe only God can do.

Therefore since we can only have our own sins and Jesus had EVERYONE’S SINS, no one could be more FULL OF SIN than Jesus, seems pretty simple to me and not only can and should we think about it but we can be grateful that God did this for US in the work of the Incarnation.

I don’t see how anyone can call this an “almost a blasphemy” since it is acknowledging what God did for God’s creation and it is as you quoted, straight from the bible and as I said, something that I was taught and I believe quite a few others were taught.

I think of Jesus, being True God and True Man, as being our (humanity’s) liaison between God and man.

Since Jesus was more full of sin, as it is written: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin”, than any of us could possibly be, God accomplished for us to be able to approach God, in any condition, at any time.

Something to think of: THE CURTAIN IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES TORE IN HALF, did it not?

No matter how much some wish to sew it back together, it is not sewable, God tore it in half with God’s work on the cross.

What I am saying is that I do NOT know “all of the details” but that God has had God’s Plan since before creation and God’s Plan and God’s Will will come to Fruition.
 
A more accurate explanation is given in St Peter’s first letter:

Jesus gave His life for us so that we might be liberated from our ignorance, weakness and self-love by His infinite wisdom, power and love. As St John the Baptist said:

“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.”

He took on the burden of our guilt but remained totally innocent.
No one is saying that Jesus lost His Innocence, but the bible clearly states: “(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)”

Seems pretty clear and straightforward that Jesus took on EVERYONE’S SINS For Jesus to BECOME SIN on our behalf.

We should be grateful for what God did not belittle what God did.
 
Hello Tony.

Not to quibble, but go back to see how Tom Baum re-words it for the comment I made. It’s re-wording is troubling. That’s what I meant and that’s what I said. I do not have any doubt or concern the Jesus died for us. That I know.

Glenda
I wrote, “since one could never be as filled with sin as Jesus, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins.”

In the bible it is written, “2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,”.

Seems as if the bible is even stronger in its language than I was considering that it said, that Jesus was made “to be sin on our behalf”, I only said that none of us could have “as much sin” individually since Jesus had ALL OF EVERYONE’S SINS.
 
You quoted, “(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)”.

I take this to mean ALL OF THE SINS OF ALL upon Himself, which I believe only God can do.

Therefore since we can only have our own sins and Jesus had EVERYONE’S SINS, no one could be more FULL OF SIN than Jesus, seems pretty simple to me and not only can and should we think about it but we can be grateful that God did this for US in the work of the Incarnation.

I don’t see how anyone can call this an “almost a blasphemy” since it is acknowledging what God did for God’s creation and it is as you quoted, straight from the bible and as I said, something that I was taught and I believe quite a few others were taught.

I think of Jesus, being True God and True Man, as being our (humanity’s) liaison between God and man.

Since Jesus was more full of sin, as it is written: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin”, than any of us could possibly be, God accomplished for us to be able to approach God, in any condition, at any time.

Something to think of: THE CURTAIN IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES TORE IN HALF, did it not?

No matter how much some wish to sew it back together, it is not sewable, God tore it in half with God’s work on the cross.

What I am saying is that I do NOT know “all of the details” but that God has had God’s Plan since before creation and God’s Plan and God’s Will will come to Fruition.
I think that part of the problem of interpretation lies in that scripture often uses poetic language, and in modern times our language is more scientific and analytical.

For example, Jesus “becoming sin” may mean simply that Jesus became an object of resentment in the *perceptions *of his people, not that he took on any type of actual negative characteristic. Is that a poetic approach? Probably not.

Perhaps a poetic approach says something more like: “Jesus embraced us with all of our sins, and said I love you anyway”, or something like that?
 
I wrote, “since one could never be as filled with sin as Jesus, since He took ALL of the sins of ALL and one could only, seems to me anyway, have their own sins.”

In the bible it is written, “2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,”.

Seems as if the bible is even stronger in its language than I was considering that it said, that Jesus was made “to be sin on our behalf”, I only said that none of us could have “as much sin” individually since Jesus had ALL OF EVERYONE’S SINS.
Your words “Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity upon Himself” are far more accurate than “Jesus was filled with sin” that can easily be misinterpreted - as we have discovered. It could be thought that He was pervaded with sin…
 
I think that part of the problem of interpretation lies in that scripture often uses poetic language, and in modern times our language is more scientific and analytical.

For example, Jesus “becoming sin” may mean simply that Jesus became an object of resentment in the *perceptions *of his people, not that he took on any type of actual negative characteristic. Is that a poetic approach? Probably not.

Perhaps a poetic approach says something more like: “Jesus embraced us with all of our sins, and said I love you anyway”, or something like that?
Or maybe it could mean that He “paid the ransom” as it also states.

Or maybe when Jesus said, “It is finished” which translates as PAID IN FULL, Jesus really did take on EVERYONE’S SINS, (past, present and future) and went to the netherworld (hell [everyone’s] and death [physical and spiritual]) for EVERYONE.

Who knows, maybe God speaks so simple and direct and straightforward and this is one of the reasons why it is also written, “It is to the simple that the ‘mysteries of the Kingdom’ have been revealed”.

Who knows, maybe that is why the theologians, some not all, speak in circles and the simple say simply, thank you for Your simple Plan for ALL, I might not know all of the “details” but I am grateful that it is Your Will that ALL BE SAVED and that you actually asked us to pray “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”.

BTW, I think one of the problems “of interpretation” is that some seem to think that God can only mean one thing when God says something and another one of the problems “of interpretation” is that some think that only the “learned” can say anything about scripture and its meaning.
 
Your words “Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL of humanity upon Himself” are far more accurate than “Jesus was filled with sin” that can easily be misinterpreted - as we have discovered. It could be thought that He was pervaded with sin…
I had no idea what you might have meant by “It could be thought that He was pervaded with sin”, so I looked up the word “pervaded”.

pervade

verb
  1. (transitive) to spread through or throughout, esp subtly or gradually; permeate
Since it is written that, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf”, sounds to me that that could be “exactly” what it means and that only God could have been “pervaded with sin” and CRUSHED the “power of sin”.

Doesn’t it also say somewhere that the “power of sin” has been DESTROYED?
 
God would not send anyone to hell deliberately, as his nature is to always offer mercy. His justice, though, demands the evil to be sent to hell, and he has to comply. God cannot contravene his justice.
 
Speaking of mortal sin…I have this question…

If mortal sin “cuts us off from God”…then one can presume his grace is withdrawn, he no longer hears our prayers so there is no point in trying until you go into confession?
 
Speaking of mortal sin…I have this question…

If mortal sin “cuts us off from God”…then one can presume his grace is withdrawn, he no longer hears our prayers so there is no point in trying until you go into confession?
Mortal sin destroys sanctifying grace (divine life) in our soul but it does not absolutely cut us off from God. We still possess the indelible mark left upon our souls from baptism as well as the grace of conversion.

God objectively hears all prayers. Obviously when we have fallen the most important imperative is to repair the break with God, so the only prayers which are important are those that are directed towards repentance the asking for forgiveness.

So no, I wouldn’t say that there is no point in prayer until confession, just so long as what you’re praying for is for your spiritual benefit and not merely your material benefit.
 
God would not send anyone to hell deliberately, as his nature is to always offer mercy. His justice, though, demands the evil to be sent to hell, and he has to comply. God cannot contravene his justice.
So are you saying that it was not God Who sent His Son, Jesus, to hell but that it was “His justice”, as in God’s Justice, that demanded that Jesus be “sent to hell” and so God had “to comply” since “God cannot contravene his justice”?

Are you actually saying that God had no choice in this?

It is hard to figure out just what you are saying but it seems as if you are saying that God’s justice overrides God’s Mercy, is that your thought on this?

I, personally, believe that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to be One.

Seeing as the bible states, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf”, speaking of Jesus at the One Who “knew no sin to be sin on our behalf”, and seeing as people equate sin and evil, you seem to be saying that God the Father had no choice in the matter since God’s Justice overrode God’s Mercy and demanded that He Who became sin go to hell, is this what you are saying?

Sure seems that way to me.

I am asking this since I am taking into account that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself as part of Jesus’s work on the cross.

Could be that Jesus knowing about His work on the cross and what it would accomplish is why Jesus said to Peter that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, It being Jesus’s Church and this statement being the “mission” of Jesus’s Church.
 
So are you saying that it was not God Who sent His Son, Jesus, to hell but that it was “His justice”, as in God’s Justice, that demanded that Jesus be “sent to hell” and so God had “to comply” since “God cannot contravene his justice”?

Are you actually saying that God had no choice in this?

It is hard to figure out just what you are saying but it seems as if you are saying that God’s justice overrides God’s Mercy, is that your thought on this?

I, personally, believe that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to be One.

Seeing as the bible states, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf”, speaking of Jesus at the One Who “knew no sin to be sin on our behalf”, and seeing as people equate sin and evil, you seem to be saying that God the Father had no choice in the matter since God’s Justice overrode God’s Mercy and demanded that He Who became sin go to hell, is this what you are saying?

Sure seems that way to me.

I am asking this since I am taking into account that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself as part of Jesus’s work on the cross.

Could be that Jesus knowing about His work on the cross and what it would accomplish is why Jesus said to Peter that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, It being Jesus’s Church and this statement being the “mission” of Jesus’s Church.
Jesus never “went to hell”. Even if he died with all the sins of men, his last words “Father into your hands I commend my spirit” indicates repentance. I actually find it offensive that you thought the Father sent Jesus to hell. The Father loves Jesus with perfect love and would never send his own son to hell.

God is mercy. Mercy, is by nature different from justice, although both are in God. We could say that God is justice also, but he by nature is predisposed towards mercy, which is why I said he is mercy. When a sinner dies, mercy pleads for him to be saved, but justice condemns him. God would choose mercy, but he can’t, since he cannot contravene his justice. If it were possible, he would have mercy on Judas and Lucifer.
 
It’s actually in the Apostle’s Creed. “He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
Another example of someone using their own interpretation of a teaching or scripture and taking it completely out of context.

Anyway Hades, which is also in the O.T. a words used for hell had different meanings.

Abraham was held in hades, the same as the rich man, as you know from the parable.

Anyway hades, which was also called hell at that time was in levels. Jesus went to hades, or at that time hell to release all the souls held in hades into heaven.

Hell now has one meaning. And it is where the level you could say that the rich man was in.
 
This is a very good point rinnie! Yes, free will is compromised by our own ignorance! If I don’t know, for example, the practice of forgiving my enemy instead of getting even with him, then such lack of awareness puts a real damper on my freedom to choose. How does one know what one does not know? One does not. So yes, we can assert “free will” but free will is limited by many things, limitations in human skill, physical capability, intellect, knowledge base, a number of different things. It only makes sense to me that all of this gets worked out, in the Light of Love, between the individual and his Creator.

Yes, that is why I have had to repeat many times that the Church is not wrong. What I am saying is that doctrine needs clarification. Yesterday, I was talking with my son about the CCC, of which I hadn’t realized he read much. He and a bunch of other upper-degree Philosophy students who were practicing Catholics got together and read the CCC on a regular basis. They concluded that the CCC needed some good philosophers to iron out some issues. I did not plant this idea in my son’s head; we differ a good deal on many issues and he far from takes my word for anything. However, concerning the CCC needing clarifications, we agree. (I think some theologians, not philosophers, though should tackle the issues)😃

In addition, I think it is time for the CCC to line out the difference between differing spiritual journeys, which lead to differing views of God, and heterodoxy. We can have people with differing views of God belong to the same Church, why not? Why does every person have to be a round peg that fits into a round hole? Do we not have an enormous variety in relationships with Abba? Why not have the CCC reflect this reality by being less specific instead of more? Every word added to every doctrine can be read in a nearly infinite number of ways, as many ways, theoretically, as there are people on Earth. If anything, the doctrine perhaps could be simplified to allow for more differences in peoples’ relationship with God.

It is the creed that unites us, it is ultimately the Eucharist that unites us. Anyone who seeks to divide us based on doctrinal interpretation, well, that is their issue. I, for one, find nothing that divides me from anyone else who calls himself Christian. I, for one, find nothing that divides me from anyone who calls himself human. The Eucharist unites. Love unites!🙂

True that. But while I am obeying, there is nothing wrong with investigating and trying to work out the contradictions.

To me, doctrine is to make sense in light of an unconditionally loving God. It is by knowing that God loves unconditionally that we can learn to forgive others without condition. It is through forgiving others that we continue to be involved in creating the Kingdom. It is through understanding that we are enabled to forgive in the more mature way, a way that for adults erases all resentment. Included in that understanding of others is the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin. All sin can be seen to occur in this context, in the context of lack of awareness.

But I didn’t say that the Holy Spirit divides, rinnie. Revelation unfolds, and as it unfolds, some items appear to contradict until it all works out.

All of have access to God within, though, regardless. Nothing excludes the Spirit from speaking to every individual in some way, and yes, we rely on the Spirit to work out the differences with the hierarchy as revelation unfolds. Doctrine evolves in history, right rinnie? Doctrine is not the same now as it was hundreds of years ago. God does not change, Jesus does not change, but we learn more over the ages. Remember all the clarifications that had to be made in the first few hundred years? To me, much is yet to be worked through.

Thanks for your response!🙂
You are contradicting yourself my dear. You just said Doctrine is not the same as it was a hundred years ago. Where are you getting your information. Then you say the God and Jesus do not change.

Doctrine is the true word of God. So how could the true word of God change, if God and Jesus don’t change.

Church Doctrine does not change. Could you possibly show me a Church Doctrine that changed? Thanks
 
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