Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. I take then that you value a spiritual virginity over a physical virginity? And if so, how does this apply to Eve and Mary and other women? Just curious. Thanks.

Glenda

Seems to me that Mary is and will be the only “Perpetual Spiritual Virgin” that will be unless God institutes some change that only God could do.

It is not about “value”, it is about pondering.

Many people do many things for many different reasons and only God can see into their heart and their motives, that is why God Is Everyone’s Judge and not any of us.

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that Jesus “PAID THE PRICE” only for those in the “good part” of hell?

I was taught that Jesus took on EVERYONE’S SINS, not just the sins of those in the “good part” of hades.

Did Jesus take on everyone’s sins or just the sins of some?

I am not real sure that you and I are on the same level of thinking when we speak of Jesus taking on the sins of all.

When Jesus paid for the sins of all, he indeed died so it was possible for all men to make it to heaven, he opened up heaven and made it possible for all to enter.

His death made it possible for all to enter heaven. All men were born into Original Sin, so even those who were righteous in the eyes of God had the scar of Original Sin.

Abraham was righteous when he died, although he sinned, he repented and did what what was possible to be forgiven for his sin in the ways of the O.T. IF not he would not be held in hades waiting for a Savior.

But it took the perfect Man, one without actual or original sin to die for the sake of sinners to make it possible to enter heaven.

Just because Jesus paid for the sins of all does not make all righteous. I have no idea where you get this. There are still works on our part we must do.

THe Rich Man was not righteous in the eyes of God, refused to do his part until Jesus took on the sin of all.

Abraham etc did their own part, all that they could do as sinnners, and then had to wait for the perfect Man without Sin to make it even Possible to enter heaven. Without Jesus heaven would not be possible for anyone. He is who opened up heaven.

Just because Jesus paid the price and made it possible for ALL men to enter heaven, by no means grants salvation for all. I have no idea where you feel he paid the price, and we are get this free pass.

Jesus gave us rules and conditions as the people in the O.T. were given.

 

[rinnie]

Perhaps my choice of words is wrong…Of course he can “hear” my prayers, but does he just ignore them? Sounds like that is what is in Job. So if in a state of mortal sin, my prayer for forgiveness, paryer for the well being of my mother, etc may be “heard” but they get thrown into “File 13” so to speak becasue I have “cut my relationship off with God” via mortal sin until I confess right?

I don’t think ignores, or does not hear, I believe as taught in Job he does not accept them,

 

[rinnie]

The bible says that JESUS BECAME SIN, that sounds pretty intense to me.

Seems to me that someone, somewhere got the idea that Mary was sinless since she was “full of grace”, didn’t they?

I don’t believe that anyone less than God could have taken ALL of Everyone’s Sins.

God-Incarnate, taking on ALL Sin and Sins and being full of sin as to become sin would stretch, so to speak, God from one spectrum to another and encompass ALL.

We do God no favor by trying to sugarcoat what God did for us, God went to the uttermost depths of hell for ALL of us, we should be appalled that anyone should suggest that God did anything less!

You wrote, “This may seem small to some but it is relevant coming from someone who has stated more than once here at CAF that they believe even the fallen angels will be redeemed by God.”, I have never said this specifically but I have said that I believe that God has redeemed and saved ALL OF GOD’S CREATION so I guess this is where you may have come up with what you wrote here.

Thanks for pointing this out to me, I hope God is “better, much better”, than many even seem to want God to be.

As Jesus told us concerning salvation, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL THINGS are possible”.

Thank you God for Your Plan and I believe that the “big surprise” shall indeed surprise many, believers and non-believers alike.

WE go the Idea of Mary being sinless from the true word of God. Mary was saved from original sin at the moment of her conception. It was by God that she was given this special grace, or as the bible states FULL of Grace, and found favor with God.

Again because you continue to take scripture out of context by the bible saying Jesus became sin, to mean he had sin, or committed sin is beyond me, and totally incorrect, in direct conflict with what the Church teaches nor ever taught. The bible states although he had no sin, he died for the sins of all.

If I take on the debt of my Son, and pay his debt for him, make me guiltless in his debt. How could his debt be mine? The same with Christ, he had no debt but paid my debt by his own free will.

IF Jesus sinned he would not be the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It took a perfect, sinless Man to die for the sins of men to open up heaven. How you feel we somehow take this lightly is once again beyond me.

 

[rinnie]

I never said that Jesus sinned and saying or implying that I did, does not change what I wrote.

The simple quote from the bible is, “”(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)".

Jesus became SIN by taking on our sins does not mean that Jesus sinned and I never said that He did.

Pretty strong statement and than the statement from Jesus, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, Jesus did NOT say this just because it was a psalm but because this psalm was coming true before our very ears.

You wrote, “He died not because he became a sinner, he died because he paid for the sins of sinners.”

Jesus took on our sins in paying the price, by the way, do you think that physical death was/is the whole price?

No, I do not. I have no idea truly what you are saying. Jesus took away death by dying on the cross, so that we could have eternal life in him. HE paid the price for us to be forgiven of sin in full. There is no way we could be free from sin on our own. But although he paid the price in full for all sin, we still have our part to do which is stated in the bible. Just because he paid the price and made it possible for us all to be forgiven for our sin, does not mean we do NOT have works to do. We must CONFESS to be forgiven, we must REPENT we must QUIT the sin. He made all things possible for us to be free from our actual sins now by the means of the Church. The Church is where we can get this forgiveness. Just because he took away Original Sin does and made it possible for us to be forgiven for actual sin, does not mean we do not have works to do in order to be forgiven.

And psalms was indeed what happened to Jesus and was predicted. Read it, My God My God why have you forsaken me, ,

all who see me mock me, they curl their lips and jeer and shake their heads at me…

They open their mouths against me…THey stare at me and gloat, they divide my garments among them, for any clothing they cast lots…

He was showing the Jews who knew scripture what they have done.

And I did write and will write again Jesus died not because he became a sinner, but because he paid sin of sinners.

Talking on the sins of all men and paying for it, by no means says the person has sin.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You quoted, “(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)”.

I take this to mean ALL OF THE SINS OF ALL upon Himself, which I believe only God can do.

Therefore since we can only have our own sins and Jesus had EVERYONE’S SINS, no one could be more [SIGN]FULL OF SIN [/SIGN]than Jesus, seems pretty simple to me and not only can and should we think about it but we can be grateful that God did this for US in the work of the Incarnation.

I don’t see how anyone can call this an “almost a blasphemy” since it is acknowledging what God did for God’s creation and it is as you quoted, straight from the bible and as I said, something that I was taught and I believe quite a few others were taught.

I think of Jesus, being True God and True Man, as being our (humanity’s) liaison between God and man.

Since Jesus was more full of sin, as it is written: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin”, than any of us could possibly be, God accomplished for us to be able to approach God, in any condition, at any time.

Something to think of: THE CURTAIN IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES TORE IN HALF, did it not?

No matter how much some wish to sew it back together, it is not sewable, God tore it in half with God’s work on the cross.

What I am saying is that I do NOT know “all of the details” but that God has had God’s Plan since before creation and God’s Plan and God’s Will will come to Fruition.

There it is by the way you stated Jesus was FULL OF SIN! I disagree, Jesus was never full of sin, had no sin whatsoever. But although INOCENT OF SIN, not full of it, paid the price for all.

 

[glendab]

Hello Rinnie!!!

[SIGN][/SIGN]

There it is by the way you stated Jesus was FULL OF SIN! I disagree, Jesus was never full of sin, had no sin whatsoever. But although INOCENT OF SIN, not full of it, paid the price for all.

Good job. I love the little sign. How did you do that? You go girl!!!

Glenda

 

[Starrsmother]

Are you saying that Jesus “PAID THE PRICE” only for those in the “good part” of hell?

I was taught that Jesus took on EVERYONE’S SINS, not just the sins of those in the “good part” of hades.

Did Jesus take on everyone’s sins or just the sins of some?

I was always taught and believe that the words from the Creed that say “He descended into hell” actually refer to the fact that upon Jesus’ death His first act was to go to the place of the dead which the people of that time referred to as Hades or Gethsenna to announce salvation to the souls of all the just–such as Abraham, Adam and Eve, Isaiah and even St. Joseph, etc and bring them out of there and into the complete salvation of heaven. Until the crucifixion granted salvation to the world, even the holiest of men who died could not go to heaven. Nobody knows exactly what that place was like or what if any suffering it included but it did include separation from the Father. Jesus went first to bring those good souls into Paradise. I have always hated that particular translation because somehow I doubt it was hell in the sense we think of hell. Rather, it was the place the dead went to wait AND, none the less, it was a form of punishment for these poor souls who from the beginning of time had waited patiently for the Savior to release them into heaven. Perhaps it was much like we think of Purgatory now. However, Jesus was NOT sent to the place of those damned for eternity! That’s a misunderstanding of the use of an ancient term. If someone had led a bad life–or say, for instance Cain, or the bad thief who taunted Jesus from his cross right next to Him, Jesus didn’t go to pass out “Get into heaven Free” passes. If they were condemned to eternal separation from God by acts in their life, nothing about that changed by Jesus’ death…

 

[Tom_Baum]

WE go the Idea of Mary being sinless from the true word of God. Mary was saved from original sin at the moment of her conception. It was by God that she was given this special grace, or as the bible states FULL of Grace, and found favor with God.

Isn’t that what I wrote?

That Mary was “full of grace”.

Again because you continue to take scripture out of context by the bible saying Jesus became sin, to mean he had sin, or committed sin is beyond me, and totally incorrect, in direct conflict with what the Church teaches nor ever taught. The bible states although he had no sin, he died for the sins of all.

I never said that Jesus “committed sin”, you should read what I write not what you think or read into what I write.

The bible clearly states, “(2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him)”, “who knew no sin”, as in Jesus did not Himself sin and then “TO BE SIN”, read it as you want but to me is seems to say that Jesus took on “ALL SIN”, pretty simple and pretty nice of God to do this and I think/believe pretty nice of God to have come up with this PLAN even before creation itself.,

If I take on the debt of my Son, and pay his debt for him, make me guiltless in his debt. How could his debt be mine? The same with Christ, he had no debt but paid my debt by his own free will.

Not just yours.

IF Jesus sinned he would not be the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

I never said that Jesus sinned, maybe you should read what I actually write instead of what you think/believe/read into what I write, no matter how many times you repeat that I wrote something does not change the fact that I did NOT write what you claim I wrote.

It took a perfect, sinless Man to die for the sins of men to open up heaven. How you feel we somehow take this lightly is once again beyond me.

I have said that Jesus, in becoming sin, as stated in the bible, was full of sin and that only God could have done this, pretty simple, pretty profound and pretty nice of God to have done this with EVERYONE’S SINS.

Do you think/believe/know if Jesus took on EVERYONE’S SINS or not?

Which is it?

Everyone’s or just some?

 

[Tom_Baum]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

There it is by the way you stated Jesus was FULL OF SIN! I disagree, Jesus was never full of sin, had no sin whatsoever. But although INOCENT OF SIN, not full of it, paid the price for all.

“Became sin” is how the bible says it.

“Full of sin”, humanity’s sins, is how I wrote it?

Sin was “nailed to the cross” and God won, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable, satan lost.

What does “to be sin” mean to you?

Do you think that it means to hold it at arm’s length or to fully embrace and destroy it?

Jesus embraced our crude like it was an infected boil and squeezed all of the crude out and as it is written, “By His stripes, we are HEALED”.

Jesus embraced our sin and sins and destroyed all of sin’s power, many ways to word it and many ways to sugarcoat it and in the process make what God did for ALL seem less than what it is.

 

[Amandil]

The crux of your problem Tom is that what Christ did in redeeming man is not applied to man universally because not “all man” will accept what Christ did for them.

And by not accepting what Christ did for them they will not be saved.

Nor will they “change their minds” after death.

Again, this is no failure on God’s part, no failure of God’s love, but instead the failure of those people who refuse to accept salvation.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Sin was “nailed to the cross” and God won, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable, satan lost. . .

What happens to those who want to remain in sin?

• if someone refuses to accept that you are a brother deserving of love,
• maintaining that you are anything but inferior to themselves and unworthy of even an acknowledgement let alone a kind intent.
• If they would without any hesitation use and abuse you.
  When Christ destroys sin, what happens to those who have no love in themselves.
  I believe they will burn, their will and warped desires, eternally unfulfilled.

 

[Tom_Baum]

What happens to those who want to remain in sin?

• if someone refuses to accept that you are a brother deserving of love,
• maintaining that you are anything but inferior to themselves and unworthy of even an acknowledgement let alone a kind intent.
• If they would without any hesitation use and abuse you.
  When Christ destroys sin, what happens to those who have no love in themselves.
  I believe they will burn, their will and warped desires, eternally unfulfilled.

Or maybe as Jesus said concerning who can be saved when asked by the Apostles, “With man, it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

Some may think/believe/know that they have all things figured out, concerning salvation.

Could be that God knows more about all of the “details” of salvation, since with God “ALL things are possible” concerning “who can be saved” than we may think/believe/know are even possible.

Some even seem to think that they know exactly how God’s hands are tied, so to speak, concerning God’s Justice and God’s Mercy, maybe they don’t.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The crux of your problem Tom is that what Christ did in redeeming man is not applied to man universally because not “all man” will accept what Christ did for them.

And by not accepting what Christ did for them they will not be saved.

Nor will they “change their minds” after death.

Again, this is no failure on God’s part, no failure of God’s love, but instead the failure of those people who refuse to accept salvation.

As Jesus said when asked by the Apostles about who can be saved, “With man, it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”.

I trust that God knows what God Is doing and that God’s Plan is truly catholic, which I believe God has had since before creation and that God’s Will is catholic just as it is written.

 

[rinnie]

“Became sin” is how the bible says it.

“Full of sin”, humanity’s sins, is how I wrote it?

Sin was “nailed to the cross” and God won, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable, satan lost.

What does “to be sin” mean to you?

Do you think that it means to hold it at arm’s length or to fully embrace and destroy it?

Jesus embraced our crude like it was an infected boil and squeezed all of the crude out and as it is written, “By His stripes, we are HEALED”.

Jesus embraced our sin and sins and destroyed all of sin’s power, many ways to word it and many ways to sugarcoat it and in the process make what God did for ALL seem less than what it is.

I am sorry we are just not connecting here. You say again Jesus was full of sin, let me ask you this, how can someone be FULL OF SIN, and be sinless??

Maybe its me, I don’t know. But I have never heard Jesus was FULL of sin.

Again to say he was full of sin is not how the Church interprets that scripture. The Church translates that scripture as, He whom was FREE from sin was to be the OFFERING for OUR sin. It never said he was full of sin. Ever.

Again Romans 4:25 says he was handed over for OUR transgressions and was raised for OUR Justification.

Again Jesus was Free from sin, but paid for the sin of man. I cannot accept your teaching of Jesus being full of Sin. He was always free from sin at all times.

 

[rinnie]

Or maybe as Jesus said concerning who can be saved when asked by the Apostles, “With man, it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

Some may think/believe/know that they have all things figured out, concerning salvation.

Could be that God knows more about all of the “details” of salvation, since with God “ALL things are possible” concerning “who can be saved” than we may think/believe/know are even possible.

Some even seem to think that they know exactly how God’s hands are tied, so to speak, concerning God’s Justice and God’s Mercy, maybe they don’t.

There is no maybe about it, No one knows the mind of God or how he will Judge someone on Judgement day.

We know as much as Christ told us. That by his death and resurrection he has set us free he is the Savior of the world.

If after our baptism we continue to sin again which is actual sin, he left us the Church to confess and forgive us our sins.

He breathed on the Apostles and said To you I give the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in my name what you hold is held, what you bind is bound.

 

[rinnie]

As Jesus said when asked by the Apostles about who can be saved, “With man, it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”.

I trust that God knows what God Is doing and that God’s Plan is truly catholic, which I believe God has had since before creation and that God’s Will is catholic just as it is written.

I accept this Tom, but why then do you continue to define scripture your way, and not interpret the way the CC teaches?

 

[Godspells]

Hell is more than a “custom-built” experience.

You need to realize that what we currently know as “reality” is a pale shadow compared to the reality of eternity.

Which is why I reject your opinion that you have “experienced” hell strictly speaking. You may have experienced severe temporary spiritual and emotional pain, I’ll not deny that. But you obviously also experienced faith, hope, and love. Therefore it wasn’t hell.

There is no love, no faith, or any hope in hell.

Again that is REDEMPTION, not Salvation. REDEMPTION unconditional. Salvation is in fact CONDITIONAL.

“Forever” cannot be applied to eternity because “forever” is specifically related to temporal existence.

Eternity is PERMANENT. There is no change in eternity. Therefore whatever state a soul possesses when it transitions from temporal existence to eternity it will remain in that state foe eternity because it’s state is in fact PERMANENT.

The justice of hell is also VICTORY, not a “tie”.

Forgive me, but I feel that this response is a bit presumptuous. Hell, just like heaven, God, eternity, etc. is a mystery. It cannot be fully comprehended by our feeble minds, it can only be experienced.

However, I do in fact believe that someone can experience, heaven, hell and God in this lifetime. And Christ’s own words confirm this, “What you do to the least of these, you do to me.” See, charity, with a sincere selfless heart, is in itself experiencing God, or heaven.

I believe quite sincerely that the aforementioned member has in fact experienced hell, because I don’t think it is quite accurate to think of hell as strictly a “physical” location or place as much as it is a “spiritual” state.

However, and I think Catholic theology agrees with me on this, the spiritual state can change while you are alive, but after death it is “locked” so to speak. It is no longer possible to repent and so whatever state you die in, you remain in.

While it is “theoretically” possible for God to intervene at that point, possibly through purgation or some other means, I think it not wise nor useful to speculate on this. People need to know that we repent in this life, not the next.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I am sorry we are just not connecting here. You say again Jesus was full of sin, let me ask you this, how can someone be FULL OF SIN, and be sinless??

I guess One would have to be God to take on not just some but ALL of the SINS of ALL and yet none of these sins being their own.

Do you really think that Jesus said, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me” because Jesus felt like saying a psalm and thought this sounded like a good one?

Or do you think that it just might have been coming true as it was being said?

Maybe its me, I don’t know. But I have never heard Jesus was FULL of sin.

Haven’t you ever heard that Jesus took everyone’s sins upon Himself to the cross?

Again to say he was full of sin is not how the Church interprets that scripture. The Church translates that scripture as, He whom was FREE from sin was to be the OFFERING for OUR sin. It never said he was full of sin. Ever.

NONE of the sins were Jesus’s but Jesus freely took on ALL of ours.

If Jesus was “the OFFERING for OUR sin” and the price of sin can be hell and/or spiritual death, did the “OFFERING” pay the “price”?

Again Romans 4:25 says he was handed over for OUR transgressions and was raised for OUR Justification.

And somewhere or another, it says that Jesus destroyed sin and the power of sin or words to that effect, doesn’t it?

And as far as “OUR transgressions” and “OUR Justification”, is that some of OUR or all of OUR?

Again Jesus was Free from sin, but paid for the sin of man. I cannot accept your teaching of Jesus being full of Sin. He was always free from sin at all times.

We sure do like to “sanitize” the crucifixion.

I look at it as Jesus taking on all of mine and all of everyone else’s sins and the spiritual weight of that must have been tremendous.

Do you think that Jesus’s “physical death on the cross” was the only thing going on at the crucifixion?

 

[Tom_Baum]

There is no maybe about it, No one knows the mind of God or how he will Judge someone on Judgement day.

I agree and as Jesus said, “with God ALL things are possible”, and my opinion concerning “ALL things” is that it means “ALL good things”, but as I said this is my opinion, just because I happen to think that God Is Good.

We know as much as Christ told us. That by his death and resurrection he has set us free he is the Savior of the world.

You wrote that “he has set us free he is the Savior of the world”, I happen to believe that Jesus is the “Savior of the world” also, not just Savior of part of or some of the world.

If after our baptism we continue to sin again which is actual sin, he left us the Church to confess and forgive us our sins.

As I said and as I said that I was taught, Jesus took on ALL sin and sins, not just some sin and sins.

He breathed on the Apostles and said To you I give the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in my name what you hold is held, what you bind is bound.

Jesus actually said that the Holy Spirit was for ALL, not just some.

I believe that Jesus’s work on the cross was for ALL, not just some.

I believe that when God said, “Let us make man (humanity) in Our Image…”, that God meant ALL just as God said, not just some.