Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Amandil and Tom.

This is a deeper reality than expressed and needs a little addition that I feel is appropriate at this particular time: Eternity. As in “People who refuse to be with God by necessity do not want to be with God” FOR ETERNITY. Yeppers, that’s pretty much it.

Or as I’ve heard before: The Theme Song for Hell is “I Did It My Way.”

Glenda

And I suppose God’s Theme Song for the Salvation of the world might also be I DID IT MY WAY or it could be I AM THE WAY WHO DID IT.

Jesus did say, “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE”, or words to the effect, didn’t He?

Wishing you well, take care.

 

[Amandil]

Great so humans can see into the soul of a person and know that they must chose an eternity without God…

The “I did it my way” song could also be a theme song for heaven, people doing things their way may also be a good way, not necessarily a bad way…

Wrong.

People in heaven will necessarily sing: “I did it HIS way.” Saints by necessity of their humility never look to their own advantage nor do they boast of their own merit. They KNOW that everything they do or ever did they did “Through Him, With Him, and In Him.”

 

[Amandil]

I did NOT say anything about God “forcing”, yet you did.

I never said anything about “against their will”, you did.

It’s a logical conclusion Tom.

You claim that God will “convince” everyone to accept salvation.

The logical question that follows is** “With their will or against it?”**

You APPARENTLY are insisting both.

As far as saying that I “don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation”, the quote that I quoted says, “IT IS GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED.”, it does NOT say, “It is God’s Will that ALL be redeemed”, does it?

Again, Tom, it’s a logical conclusion. If God the Son died for the sins of all, that He redeemed all men by His blood, then God necessarily wants all to be saved.

In no way does it mean that His dying was instantly efficacious, that by it all men are automatically saved.

Mark 16:[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Those are Christ’s own words. Its up to you to reconcile them with your views.

I am not trying to imply that some do hope for others to be in hell for ever and ever and…, that believe that God came up with such an uncatholic Plan and even tho I very much "do NOT hope for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and… ., I will add that I do not believe that God’s Plan is so lacking, seeing as God had eternity to come up with God’s Plan before creation.

Hell is necessarily part of God’s plan, so it is necessarily “catholic”(whatever you intend that to mean).

And as far as you saying that I “should keep silent”, I did not pick me to speak, God did and I will continue to at least try to speak, maybe when you meet God, you can take it up with God.

James 3:[1] Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.

You repeatedly admit your own ignorance and continue to speak from it.

Given that you persistently are speaking contrary to Church teaching and Sacred Scripture I can be fairly certain that whatever source your received the idea that you should speak as you are is not from God. It is not of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:[1] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
&
[6] We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Whatever “spirit” which is prompting you to deny hell and deny the authority of the Church is NOT a spirit you should be listening to.

God has His Ways and God has told us that He does.

And what He won’t do.

I have said many times that the “Consuming Fire of Love” can caress or burn.

I would rather believe in a God Who doesn’t have to conform to my expectations or lack of expectations, IOW a God Who ls God and I am grateful that God has revealed to me that the “little statement” that I learned in 2nd grade, that GOD IS LOVE, is quite literal.

Yet you believe in a God that has to conform to your expectation that “all men are saved”?

And God is Love.

And in no way does that truth negate the eternity of hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Couple of things to think about, if one wishes to “ponder”:

How many thru the ages who were speaking for God were believed by the “religious” of their day?

For that matter, how many of the “religious” of the time when One said that He was the Son of God believed Him when He spoke?

And even now in the “Church Age” there have been many that were looked down upon, so to speak, when they were breathers only to be looked up to only after they have died.

The bible even speaks of things such as these.

It doesn’t matter if one believes or doesn’t believe what I say concerning Jesus being the Saviour of the world, my “job” is to speak, my “job” is not whether anyone hears or believes.

It is one thing to either disagree or not believe what I write but it is quite another to disagree or not believe that which I have not written but for one reason or another, one seems to think that I have written.

I am not here to tell others the “details” of God’s Plan and I would say that the main reason for that is because I do not know, detail-wise, of just how God’s Will will come to Fruition, only that God is God and we ain’t and as far as I am concerned, the “details” are not important, at least to me, what is important is that God cares for ALL OF GOD’S CREATION and what is so clearly and simply written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”, is what is important and somehow or another will come to Fruition.

I do not know much but one of the things that I do know is that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being merely an attribute of God and this “fact” clearly does have a significant effect on my “ponderings” concerning God.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

I am not here to tell others the “details” of God’s Plan and I would say that the main reason for that is because I do not know, detail-wise, of just how God’s Will will come to Fruition, only that God is God and we ain’t and as far as I am concerned, the “details” are not important, at least to me, what is important is that God cares for ALL OF GOD’S CREATION and what is so clearly and simply written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”, is what is important and somehow or another will come to Fruition.

I do not know much but one of the things that I do know is that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being merely an attribute of God and this “fact” clearly does have a significant effect on my “ponderings” concerning God.

I think it is time to re-visit a question I posed on this subject a while back on another thread - Tom, since God wills* all* to be saved and will literally save all in time according** the plan you know of**, how come the Liturgy itself was recently changed from all to many? This is no insignificant change. Can you comment on it and how did it effect the way you worshipped at Church? Do you find the change problematic in that the Church in her Liturgy is saying that God only died so MANY would be saved, not ALL as it used to say?

Glenda

 

[Mark121359]

I am not here to tell others the “details” of God’s Plan and I would say that the main reason for that is because I do not know, detail-wise, of just how God’s Will will come to Fruition, only that God is God and we ain’t and as far as I am concerned, the “details” are not important, at least to me, what is important is that God cares for ALL OF GOD’S CREATION and what is so clearly and simply written,*** “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”, ***is what is important and somehow or another will come to Fruition.

While it is true that He did redeem the whole world, the fact of the matter is that a great many of us will reject that saving work. Just because we affirm the universality of Christ’s redemptive work doesn’t mean that we are universalists. By saying that he redeemed the whole world, one cannot conclude from this that all will be saved. It appears to me that many on here have fallen for this false belief of “assurance of salvation.” The problem with this is it denies free will and the very existence of sin. If we are all eternally assured of salvation, then what difference would it make if we sin? If sin does not in fact exist, then there’s no such thing as moral absolutes, and there would be nothing that we could ever do to offend God. This means we cannot choose God, so therefore we do not have free will. If there is no sin and we have no capability to decide on sin or God, then what need would we even have for a savior? Eternal assurance in fact denies the very basis for Christ’s incarnation. This way of thinking to my understanding smacks of the sin of presumption.

For us Catholics, it is essential that we trust the Church and her interpretation of Sacred Scripture. It’s deeply troubling to me to see so many Catholics today reject this, and make their own false interpretations and conclusions. One thing is clear. The RCC has always held firm to the very existence of hell, and the very real possibility that any one of us could end up there by our choices. I’m reminded of Philippians 2:12 in which it says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." As Jesus Himself would warn; “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Peace, Mark

 

[simpleas]

Change is scary for some people Simpleas! And that fear has to be respected and addressed gently, I think. I remember how much Vatican II shook me, it was like “there is nothing stable in the Church, it is a joke.” So, I turned to protestantism, and focused on the stability of the Bible.

However, even interpretation of the Bible changes over the years. Where is stability found? It is found in prayer, in forgiveness, in Love. It is found in relationship with God. When I was going after these external sources of stability, I was fairly rudderless.

So does that mean you were protestant for a time or you just looked into it?

 

[Amandil]

Couple of things to think about, if one wishes to “ponder”:

How many thru the ages who were speaking for God were believed by the “religious” of their day?

Those speaking for God had certain proofs to verify their testimony that they were speaking for God.

You have not provided any such verification.

For that matter, how many of the “religious” of the time when One said that He was the Son of God believed Him when He spoke?

Jesus verified His own testimony by what He did.

You are not Jesus.

And even now in the “Church Age” there have been many that were looked down upon, so to speak, when they were breathers only to be looked up to only after they have died.

The only people who “looked down upon” them were heretics and schismatics, not men and women of the Church who knew that they spoke the truth.

Those who spoke contrary to the Church expressly violated the truth and were not “looked up to.”

It doesn’t matter if one believes or doesn’t believe what I say concerning Jesus being the Saviour of the world, my “job” is to speak, my “job” is not whether anyone hears or believes.

No one is denying that Jesus is the Savior of the world, Tom.

The issue is that not everyone will accept Him as the Savior of the world. They will not accept them as their Savior, no matter how much “convincing” you think God can or must do.

Jesus in no uncertain language affirms this.
John 5:[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[25] "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
[26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, [27] and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29] and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

I am not here to tell others the “details” of God’s Plan and I would say that the main reason for that is because I do not know, detail-wise, of just how God’s Will will come to Fruition, only that God is God and we ain’t and as far as I am concerned, the “details” are not important, at least to me, what is important is that God cares for ALL OF GOD’S CREATION and what is so clearly and simply written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”, is what is important and somehow or another will come to Fruition.

You are clearly misinterpreting the text and ignoring the other Biblical texts which contradict your false interpretation.

There have been plenty of teachings and commentary expressed here which proves that you are misinterpreting the text. Yet you insist upon being persistently obdurate.

I do not know much but one of the things that I do know is that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being merely an attribute of God and this “fact” clearly does have a significant effect on my “ponderings” concerning God.

You keep saying this and I simply have no clue as to what you are referring to. No one AFAIK has said anything such.

It as well begs the question as to whether or not you properly understand what John meant by “love” in that verse.

 

[arte]

Arte, I respect your fears and issues with the concept of hell. To be honest, it really isn’t a problem unless one ends up there–would you agree? I think God is merciful and wants all of His creation to be with Him one day in heaven.

I agree. I definitely do not want to end up in hell if it exists. However, whilst I’m alive, it is still a problem for me even if I am a good Catholic Christian and would likely not go to hell. The reason is that hell is totally out of kilter with the description of a God who is supposed to be an omnipotent being, loving, merciful and just. In fact, hell is totally out of kilter with the love, mercy, and justice of the overwhelming vast majority of us mere humans.

With respect, Sir, I don’t think it much matters whether you believe in hell or not–it’s a little like hiding one’s head in the sand to deny it’s existence when Jesus said it’s real…

The main message of Jesus is LOVE and this main message is completely out of kilter by Jesus’ statements on hell and that many will end up there. Christian Universalists go through a lot of mental gymnastics to arrive at a different take on Jesus’ statements on hell. I can find “traction” with some of them but there are a lot that are taken completely out of context from the original meaning.

I understand your concern about the “narrow door” quote. I’ve pondered on that one too. I think what Jesus was trying to tell us–and He spoke so often in parables that sometimes all I can do is give it my best guess, but what I think He was telling us is to not simply try to get to heaven by doing the very least we can to comply with the law–but to go out of our way to be truly Christian–helping the poor, praying regularly, making Mass something we look forward to and attend as often as we can, not just on Sunday to keep the law. The same with confession. Have you ever noticed the long confession lines at Easter time compared with the rest of the year? Why do you think that is? It’s because that is when all those who are content with simply meeting the letter of the law are fulfilling their Easter duty! I think Jesus wants us to love Him as much as He loved us first! We should live our lives for the love of the God who created us and loved us so much He died for us–not just because we fear hell. I think God wants love–not fear.

I completely agree with everything you’ve written in the above paragraph. All Christians and not just us Catholics should follow what you have written above. It’s excellent especially: “I think God wants love–not fear”. Unfortunately, the Bible repeatedly mentions the fear of God. On this forum I have been told that “I do not fear our God of the universe enough”!

I truly realize that all my 5 kids may not land in heaven. My youngest daughter is, as I write, living the life of an active homosexual and of course that worries me greatly even as I pray for her daily. Perhaps I won’t make it to heaven either-though I pray I do. We enter this world alone and we leave it the same way.

I believe that the “jury is still out” on whether gays are gay by choice or by some biological component. Whatever, your daughter is still your daughter and you seem like the kind of person who would rightly love her despite her sexual orientation. Your love for your daughter is so important for her. Although I wouldn’t like it, I would still love any of my children in the same circumstances. Does her sexual orientation bar her from Heaven? I personally do not believe it does. Before anyone asks, I do not support SSM and sent a Church form to my government (in vain) to stop them legalising it.

Having said that, look at pedophiles like the one in Fla who abducted and molested a little girl and then buried her alive–or Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer. Are they in hell?

I always get asked this question but normally people put Hitler first in their list. If you believe in Hell, the above evil sadistic degenerates would be an extremely small minority of hells’ occupants. The overwhelming vast majority of the occupants would be everyday normal people who MOST DEFINITELY do not deserve to be tortured for eternity. Even these sadistic evil people should not be tortured. Mere humans have a more humane way of dealing with them so surely God would have an even better way than us. If they are beyond any form of “corrective punishment”, I would have no problems with God destroying their souls – total oblivion. In fact, this is the belief in Judaism for these evil sadistic people. It is far more merciful than torturing them for an eternity.

I truly don’t know as only God knows what conversion occurs within a human heart at the moment of death. I believe that our God is a just God though–and we either repent on earth or we cannot expect to reach heaven. That’s where the virtue of HOPE comes into the picture!–And again, I respect your thoughts–these are just something to consider!

I respect your thoughts as well and will certainly consider what you have written. “I also truly don’t know as only God knows what conversion occurs within a human heart at the moment of death”. However, I believe that you don’t have to repent on Earth to reach Heaven. Atheists do not believe in God because they do not see any evidence for Him. They will have a rude awakening when they die and come face to face with God but God will understand the reasoning behind their decision.

 

[arte]

arte, I respectfully ask you to clean up your post (#494).

There is a reason why there is a quote function on message boards, and it is not to wrap your words in a quote with my name on it.

Hi Amandil,

I’ve tried several times to re-post #494 without success. It’s long ago so we’ll loose the “thread” of the post anyway. Also, I’m sure we’ll cover the points in post #494 again somewhere else.

God bless

Arte

 

[Amandil]

arte:

The reason is that hell is totally out of kilter with the description of a God who is supposed to be an omnipotent being, loving, merciful and just. In fact, hell is totally out of kilter with the love, mercy, and justice of the overwhelming vast majority of us mere humans.

How do you know that hell is “out of kilter” with anything with which we know of God?

Is hell contrary to God’s omnipotence? No, rather it presupposes it. Omnipotence means that there is nothing outside of God by which is power is limited by. If God himself limits His own power then it is God which is limiting Himself, not anything or anyone outside of God. That God limits His own power to permit humans to freely choose to love Him while accepting that many of them will refuse Him and therefore choose hell requires omnipotence.

Is hell contrary to love? In a sense it is, but NOT God’s failure to love man, but man’s failure to love God. Any love relationship requires two parties, not just one. People who choose hell necessarily reject that relationship rule.

Is hell contrary to mercy? No. Mercy is a gift that needs to be freely accepted as well as freely given. God is prepared to give mercy to all, yet many refuse to accept it. Those who refuse to accept God’s mercy will then receive God’s justice.

Is hell contrary to justice? No. Sin will necessarily receive it’s just punishment at the last judgment. Those people who refuse to separate themselves from their favorite sins by repenting and accepting God’s mercy before they die will then receive God’s justice and be punished with the sin they love more than God.

Hell is the end result of their choice. And God’s judgment of their choice will necessarily satisfy justice and be just.

It sounds as if your objection is something like “why should our choices have such serious consequences?”

The fact is that our choices necessarily have eternal consequences. This is why our will or our heart is so important to us and to God and why they need to be directed towards the good.

 

[rinnie]

You might say that the Holy Spirit “teaches chaos” but I don’t.

Semantics aside, God can speak volumes without words or Scripture.

No completely the opposite, which was my point. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture if it does it is our misunderstanding.

That is why we are Catholic, we cannot teach scripture, we must learn the true meaning from the Church.

That Is why there is only ONE truth, not many.

 

[bisco]

well said rinnie, it seems that many here were not catechized well, or are not really Catholic as they state in the info.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I believe that you don’t have to repent on Earth to reach Heaven. . .

I see no other possible way in.

 

[bisco]

i think tom is a universalist?

 

[Tom_Baum]

i think tom is a universalist?

Why would you say that?

Is it because it is written that “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved” and I believe that somehow or another God’s Will will come to Fruition?

Could it be that when God-Incarnate was asked to teach us to pray, He taught us to pray, “… Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…” and I believe that, at the least, we should pray for God’s Will to be done?

When Jesus was asked by the Apostles, Well than who can be saved?", His answer was, “With man it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”, could be that Jesus was trying get thru to us that no matter how nice the “box” is that we attempt to build for God, just won’t hold God, any thoughts from anybody not just who this is posted too?

I believe that God has had a Plan since before creation and that God’s Plan is catholic, could this be another reason why you may think that?

Yes, I do believe that God wins and satan loses and that God’s Victory is TOTAL, as in a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

 

[Tom_Baum]

No completely the opposite, which was my point. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture if it does it is our misunderstanding.

That is why we are Catholic, we cannot teach scripture, we must learn the true meaning from the Church.

That Is why there is only ONE truth, not many.

And isn’t that “ONE truth”, Jesus?

I wrote, "You might say that the Holy Spirit “teaches chaos” but I don’t.

Semantics aside, God can speak volumes without words or Scripture."

You replied, “No completely the opposite, which was my point. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture if it does it is our misunderstanding.”

What, by the way, is “completely the opposite”?

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit does teach chaos?

Or are you saying that God actually needs words to get something across to us?

 

[rinnie]

And isn’t that “ONE truth”, Jesus?

I wrote, "You might say that the Holy Spirit “teaches chaos” but I don’t.

Semantics aside, God can speak volumes without words or Scripture."

You replied, “No completely the opposite, which was my point. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture if it does it is our misunderstanding.”

What, by the way, is “completely the opposite”?

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit does teach chaos?

Or are you saying that God actually needs words to get something across to us?

God has many ways of getting our attention. Buy my point is this, God left us the Church to teach and preach to us the good news.

He sent the Holy Spirit to the Church teach us what we need to know, The Church is the Pilar of all truth, not what WE think or WE believe.

I believe you know quite well what I mean by what I have written. It was very clear.

Although God can get our attention any way he chooses, he does use words to get thing’s across to us.

It is called Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It is taught by the leaders of the Church who we are called to follow.

The Ten commandments were indeed words. The teachings we are told to obey and listen to are indeed words.

While God may not need words to get our attention, it is how he Chose to get our attention. It was his way of communicating with us.

 

[rinnie]

I happen to think that it is fine to use our God-given mental abilities.

I also think that it is fine for one to believe God-Incarnate when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit.

Just because something means something in scripture does not mean that that is the only thing that it means.

It is you who claims that scripture can have many meanings. Again that is in direct conflict with what the Church teaches.

You cannot take a scripture and turn it around to mean what you feel it means. That is what the Church calls taking scripture out of context.

When we have a scripture it is taught to have a specific meaning. That is what the CC teaches.

You claim it can have plural meanings. That is not what the Church teaches. Can you show me where this teaching comes from that you claim, that scripture taught, has plural meanings. Thankx!

You have me quite puzzled there. What do you feel Christ left out? What teaching do you believe he forgot when he taught his Apostles that you seem to know?

You said that just because it means something in scripture does not mean that’s all it means? What would it matter if we are speaking of what Christ taught, and we are speaking of what he taught the scripture means? What is your point? We are speaking of scripture and what point Jesus is trying to make with it.

What is our God given mental abilities in defining the word of God in your opinion? Again I must ask, are you claiming the Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture?

 

[bisco]

Why would you say that?

Is it because it is written that “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved” and I believe that somehow or another God’s Will will come to Fruition?

Could it be that when God-Incarnate was asked to teach us to pray, He taught us to pray, “… Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…” and I believe that, at the least, we should pray for God’s Will to be done?

When Jesus was asked by the Apostles, Well than who can be saved?", His answer was, “With man it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”, could be that Jesus was trying get thru to us that no matter how nice the “box” is that we attempt to build for God, just won’t hold God, any thoughts from anybody not just who this is posted too?

I believe that God has had a Plan since before creation and that God’s Plan is catholic, could this be another reason why you may think that?

Yes, I do believe that God wins and satan loses and that God’s Victory is TOTAL, as in a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

no, it’s because universalism teaches that all are saved, and the Catholic church does not.