Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Amandil]

Why would you say that?

Is it because it is written that “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved” and I believe that somehow or another God’s Will will come to Fruition?

Nowhere in that verse does it even indicate such. Your reading your views into that verse apart from the myriad of Scripture verses which contradict your particular interpretation.

When Jesus was asked by the Apostles, Well than who can be saved?", His answer was, “With man it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”, could be that Jesus was trying get thru to us that no matter how nice the “box” is that we attempt to build for God, just won’t hold God, any thoughts from anybody not just who this is posted too?

Another false interpretation. Jesus had just finished speaking about how impossible it was for those who are rich and prosperous to get into heaven. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”(Matt 19:24).

The traditional belief of a Jew in Israel was that material prosperity was directly the result of God’s favor and that if you were rich that it meant that you were supremely innocent & just before God.

Jesus turned this view on its head: not only was being “rich” not an instance of being just before God but rather that it was an obstacle. Reliance of God is what saves, not monetary blessings. That is what Jesus was saying in the passage.

I believe that God has had a Plan since before creation and that God’s Plan is catholic, could this be another reason why you may think that?

Yes, I do believe that God wins and satan loses and that God’s Victory is TOTAL, as in a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

Again, the punishment of sin and those who refuse to repent of sin into hell is TOTAL VICTORY over sin and death.

Christ already conquered sin and death with His work of Redemption, all that’s left is His parousia and the consummation of all things, which must wait for the full number of those of whom He wills to be created.

It’s your false idea that the existence of hell is somehow a “tie” which is sorely begging the question.

 

[Godspells]

It is you who claims that scripture can have many meanings. Again that is in direct conflict with what the Church teaches.

You cannot take a scripture and turn it around to mean what you feel it means. That is what the Church calls taking scripture out of context.

When we have a scripture it is taught to have a specific meaning. That is what the CC teaches.

You claim it can have plural meanings. That is not what the Church teaches. Can you show me where this teaching comes from that you claim, that scripture taught, has plural meanings. Thankx!

You have me quite puzzled there. What do you feel Christ left out? What teaching do you believe he forgot when he taught his Apostles that you seem to know?

You said that just because it means something in scripture does not mean that’s all it means? What would it matter if we are speaking of what Christ taught, and we are speaking of what he taught the scripture means? What is your point? We are speaking of scripture and what point Jesus is trying to make with it.

What is our God given mental abilities in defining the word of God in your opinion? Again I must ask, are you claiming the Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture?

Rinnie, when the angel came to Mary to tell her that she would be conceived by the Holy Spirit, he told her that she will call Him “Jesus” which means savior, because He will save her people.

This was a pun, which has a double meaning (1) That savior is Jesus name (2) That Jesus will save.

Puns are actually quite common in scripture, for instance when Christ renamed Simon, “rock” as in the “rock” for which He would build His Church.

Also, universalism is not condemned by the Church so long as one recognizes that anyone can still “choose” to go to hell. I think this poster is simply demonstrating that from his perspective he can find no other way for God to claim total victory if some are condemned to hell, which I sympathize with, as long as he has the humility to admit he could be wrong.

 

[bisco]

that’s very interesting, i never heard that the bible was full of puns. as a protestant, you may see tom’s point of view, but he claims to be Catholic. when you say 'universalism is not condemned by the church, do you mean the Catholic church?

 

[Tom_Baum]

God has many ways of getting our attention. Buy my point is this, God left us the Church to teach and preach to us the good news.

He sent the Holy Spirit to the Church teach us what we need to know, The Church is the Pilar of all truth, not what WE think or WE believe.

I believe you know quite well what I mean by what I have written. It was very clear.

Although God can get our attention any way he chooses, he does use words to get thing’s across to us.

It is called Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It is taught by the leaders of the Church who we are called to follow.

The Ten commandments were indeed words. The teachings we are told to obey and listen to are indeed words.

While God may not need words to get our attention, it is how he Chose to get our attention. It was his way of communicating with us.

As far as “Although God can get our attention any way he chooses, he does use words to get thing’s across to us.”

When God the Father came into my heart, or more correctly, revealed Himself to me in my heart, I “knew” that what I was taught in 2nd grade that “God Is Love” was/is quite literal and there were no words used.

When the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus, again, there were no words used.

So to say that “he does use words to get thing’s across to us” is only a partial truth because God can and does use other ways “to get thing’s across to us”.

As far as “I believe you know quite well what I mean by what I have written. It was very clear.”, seems to me that what you “mean”, considering that you said, “he does use words to get thing’s across to us”, isn’t in reality the “whole truth” as I have pointed out that that is NOT the only way that God uses “to get thing’s across to us”.

Also, concerning “It is called Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It is taught by the leaders of the Church who we are called to follow.”, Jesus did NOT extend the invitation to ‘come follow the leaders of the Church’ but to “COME FOLLOW ME” isn’t it Jesus to Whom the invitation to follow is directed?

 

[bisco]

if you don’t believe church dogma, you’re receiving the eucharist unworthily, no?

 

[glendab]

Hello Amandil.

Nowhere in that verse does it even indicate such. Your reading your views into that verse apart from the myriad of Scripture verses which contradict your particular interpretation.

Another false interpretation. Jesus had just finished speaking about how impossible it was for those who are rich and prosperous to get into heaven. “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”(Matt 19:24).

The traditional belief of a Jew in Israel was that material prosperity was directly the result of God’s favor and that if you were rich that it meant that you were supremely innocent & just before God.

Jesus turned this view on its head: not only was being “rich” not an instance of being just before God but rather that it was an obstacle. Reliance of God is what saves, not monetary blessings. That is what Jesus was saying in the passage.

Again, the punishment of sin and those who refuse to repent of sin into hell is TOTAL VICTORY over sin and death.

Christ already conquered sin and death with His work of Redemption, all that’s left is His parousia and the consummation of all things, which must wait for the full number of those of whom He wills to be created.

It’s your false idea that the existence of hell is somehow a “tie” which is sorely begging the question.

Bravo! :clapping: Very nice.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

As far as “Although God can get our attention any way he chooses, he does use words to get thing’s across to us.”

When God the Father came into my heart, or more correctly, revealed Himself to me in my heart, I “knew” that what I was taught in 2nd grade that “God Is Love” was/is quite literal and there were no words used.

When the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus, again, there were no words used.

So to say that “he does use words to get thing’s across to us” is only a partial truth because God can and does use other ways “to get thing’s across to us”.

As far as “I believe you know quite well what I mean by what I have written. It was very clear.”, seems to me that what you “mean”, considering that you said, “he does use words to get thing’s across to us”, isn’t in reality the “whole truth” as I have pointed out that that is NOT the only way that God uses “to get thing’s across to us”.

Also, concerning “It is called Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. It is taught by the leaders of the Church who we are called to follow.”, Jesus did NOT extend the invitation to ‘come follow the leaders of the Church’ but to “COME FOLLOW ME” isn’t it Jesus to Whom the invitation to follow is directed?

Since you are going personal, so will I. I am a convert and you are a revert; not much difference except you stepped away for a while. However, I think I may have a little different twist to my story then you do to yours. Let me explain: Since I’ve been Catholic, I’ve listened to several other conversion stories and one thing I noticed when we get down to the heart-to-heart sharing is a stripping away of old presumptive notions, an “Oh, my God!” moment we share in that when we look at each other, we know beyond words that we’ve experienced the exact same thing with variations that are commensurate with our varying states in life and conditions. But one thread remains common for all of us, when one realizes one is headed straight to Hell in a hand basket and unless and until Jesus actually saves one, one is doomed and this usually is accompanied by great moaning and tears and all kinds of feelings of fright and sweat and it happens over a period of time and changes your life. It feels like being two inches tall suddenly in forty foot tall world and your sins usually pervade your thoughts night and day and at that point you are greatly moved within yourself to do all kinds of crazy stuff. Some run for the Rectory and some even pound on the doors of Convents and Monasteries and such. Some quit their jobs and some give up booze and some let their mistresses know they aren’t available anymore. Et cetera. Lives are forever changed in those moments of conversion madness and many pity what they witness in converts when they see them with the sweats, etc. But many around them are also smiling inwardly and praising God for His shower of blessings of conversion in those same lives. The Holy Spirit moves souls to the Church all the time and it is a very beautiful thing to watch and have happen in ones life. God really did save me as I was headed straight to Hell and totally unaware of my plight for long sad time.

One thing in common in all this conversion madness that those of us who’ve been through it share - Hell is a very loud reality and must be dealt with and when one goes through this if one doubts anything every again about one’s faith, it sure as Hell isn’t Hell. Been there, done that, even have the T-shirt!

So, please share your experience of your reversion when you may have noticed you were going to Hell and thought in your mind you should return to the Sacraments, especially Confession. How did you go from that to disbelieving that Hell is a reality and an eternity long?

Glenda

 

[Godspells]

that’s very interesting, i never heard that the bible was full of puns. as a protestant, you may see tom’s point of view, but he claims to be Catholic. when you say 'universalism is not condemned by the church, do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes, the Vatican has said that determining the number of people in hell is purely speculative, and it is altogether possible that no one is in hell.

As long as one recognizes the capacity of a human being to choose sin over God, thereby condemning themselves to the inferno, one is in line with Catholic dogma.

Recently I’ve been investigating EOC dogma that holds the existence of the intermittent state of hades where souls await the final judgment and can be potentially “prayed out” of hades and into the bosom of Abraham. In this way it is possible to non-dogmatically believe in universal reconciliation, provided again, one recognizes that it may not happen, thereby saving themselves from dogmatizing a mystery.

 

[arte]

How do you know that hell is “out of kilter” with anything with which we know of God?.

“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:8 (NKJV)
Hell is a form of punishment and is described as burning in a lake of fire and sulphur etc. It is a horrific form of punishment even for 1 second. In the developed World, no human judge would order that form of punishment for any criminal act including murder. However, God orders this punishment 24/7 for eternity for humans who do far less than murder someone. So how can mere humans show more love than God when sentencing someone?

Is hell contrary to God’s omnipotence? No, rather it presupposes it. Omnipotence means that there is nothing outside of God by which is power is limited by. If God himself limits His own power then it is God which is limiting Himself, not anything or anyone outside of God. That God limits His own power to permit humans to freely choose to love Him while accepting that many of them will refuse Him and therefore choose hell requires omnipotence.

This is process theism which is gathering favour amongst some theologians because they know that the God described in the Bible and the issue of hell are totally at odds (out of kilter) with an omnipotent God. God limits His own power so He cannot impose His divine will on people but God can try to persuade people about what should be done by utilising churches, evangelists etc. People will then either agree or disregard God’s advice given to them by a human. God’s inability to impose His divine will on the World is seen as a moral advantage, rendering God more respectable and more impressive. **Unfortunately, God’s omnipotence is sacrificed in order to better secure other attributes regarded as ultimately more important. **

Is hell contrary to love? In a sense it is, but NOT God’s failure to love man, but man’s failure to love God. Any love relationship requires two parties, not just one. People who choose hell necessarily reject that relationship rule.

Process theism again but I’ll flesh out my rebuttal a bit. So if you no longer love your husband/wife but he/she still loves you then you get put in the tumble dryer for ever! Unless they have a masochistic behaviour disorder (mentally ill), no human would chose hell if it existed.

Is hell contrary to mercy? No. Mercy is a gift that needs to be freely accepted as well as freely given. God is prepared to give mercy to all, yet many refuse to accept it. Those who refuse to accept God’s mercy will then receive God’s justice.

Process theism again. How come God’s mercy is less than the judge’s mercy I mentioned earlier? Furthermore, how come God’s justice is woefully behind the justice systems in use in the developed World today? In our justice system, the punishment fits the crime. God’s justice system has only one default punishment – torture 24/7 for eternity regardless of the severity of the crime (sin).

Is hell contrary to justice? No. Sin will necessarily receive it’s just punishment at the last judgment. Those people who refuse to separate themselves from their favorite sins by repenting and accepting God’s mercy before they die will then receive God’s justice and be punished with the sin they love more than God.

Process theism again. However, I have never heard that “people will be punished with the sin they love more than God”. Don’t you mean “for” instead of “with”? The main problem here is that God is not seen as “real” by most people. I read on a Catholic website: “Because it is not evident that God punishes in this life, He must do it in the after life”. Most people do not see any** evidence **for God in this World. They “can’t feel” His love. When people die, they will “actually feel” God’s love and will definitely not love their sins more than God’s love. You are using the “fear factor” to evangelise by threatening people with extreme punishment unless they repent before they die.

Hell is the end result of their choice. And God’s judgment of their choice will necessarily satisfy justice and be just.

Process theism again.

It sounds as if your objection is something like “why should our choices have such serious consequences?”

That is my objection. The punishment you are advocating is “way out of kilter” with the crime (sin) committed. And, no matter how you try to wriggle out of it Amandil, under our Church’s teaching, children can go to hell.

The fact is that our choices necessarily have eternal consequences. This is why our will or our heart is so important to us and to God and why they need to be directed towards the good.

Whilst they may or may not think of God, the vast majority of mankind directs their will (hearts) towards the good.

 

[arte]

I see no other possible way in.

The main problem here is that God is not seen as “real” in their lives by most people. I read on a Catholic website: “Because it is **not evident **that God punishes in this life, He must do it in the after life”. Most people do not see **any evidence **of God in this World. In fact, people see the horrendous incidents that happen every day on this planet and say: where’s God? If there is a God how can he allow such a thing to happen? They “can’t feel” God’s love or presence. When people die, they will “actually feel” God’s love and presence. Revelation will be given to them so that they understand the meaning of life and God’s plan. At that stage surely an omnipotent being (God) will show His divine mercy, grace, and justice so that after a period of correction befitting their sins, their souls can enter Heaven.

 

[simpleas]

Hello Tom.

Since you are going personal, so will I. I am a convert and you are a revert; not much difference except you stepped away for a while. However, I think I may have a little different twist to my story then you do to yours. Let me explain: Since I’ve been Catholic, I’ve listened to several other conversion stories and one thing I noticed when we get down to the heart-to-heart sharing is a stripping away of old presumptive notions, an “Oh, my God!” moment we share in that when we look at each other, we know beyond words that we’ve experienced the exact same thing with variations that are commensurate with our varying states in life and conditions. But one thread remains common for all of us, when one realizes one is headed straight to Hell in a hand basket and unless and until Jesus actually saves one, one is doomed and this usually is accompanied by great moaning and tears and all kinds of feelings of fright and sweat and it happens over a period of time and changes your life. It feels like being two inches tall suddenly in forty foot tall world and your sins usually pervade your thoughts night and day and at that point you are greatly moved within yourself to do all kinds of crazy stuff. Some run for the Rectory and some even pound on the doors of Convents and Monasteries and such. Some quit their jobs and some give up booze and some let their mistresses know they aren’t available anymore. Et cetera. Lives are forever changed in those moments of conversion madness and many pity what they witness in converts when they see them with the sweats, etc. But many around them are also smiling inwardly and praising God for His shower of blessings of conversion in those same lives. The Holy Spirit moves souls to the Church all the time and it is a very beautiful thing to watch and have happen in ones life. God really did save me as I was headed straight to Hell and totally unaware of my plight for long sad time.

One thing in common in all this conversion madness that those of us who’ve been through it share - Hell is a very loud reality and must be dealt with and when one goes through this if one doubts anything every again about one’s faith, it sure as Hell isn’t Hell. Been there, done that, even have the T-shirt!

So, please share your experience of your reversion when you may have noticed you were going to Hell and thought in your mind you should return to the Sacraments, especially Confession. How did you go from that to disbelieving that Hell is a reality and an eternity long?

Glenda

Not addressed to me…but…

isn’t what you are saying about hell being a fear motivator? That you leave “old ways” behind because you are afraid of going to hell for all eternity, rather than you experienced God’s love first, forgiveness and that was a prompting to leave “old ways” behind?

Fear works very well, we see it the world over, can be useful, but I’d prefer telling someone of God’s love first and foremost, rather than his punishment, if they do not change their ways.

This is the message I have always known from our church, the hell message has never been a large part of any teaching I’ve heard, only what was believed at the time the Gospels were written. If I’d heard how I’d burn in hell for one “mortal” sin at the time of death without confession, I don’t think I’d have ever grown in love and trust of Christ.
I’m glad I heard more of how God loves us, and that made me want to love him back as much as I could.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, when the angel came to Mary to tell her that she would be conceived by the Holy Spirit, he told her that she will call Him “Jesus” which means savior, because He will save her people.

This was a pun, which has a double meaning (1) That savior is Jesus name (2) That Jesus will save.

Puns are actually quite common in scripture, for instance when Christ renamed Simon, “rock” as in the “rock” for which He would build His Church.

Also, universalism is not condemned by the Church so long as one recognizes that anyone can still “choose” to go to hell. I think this poster is simply demonstrating that from his perspective he can find no other way for God to claim total victory if some are condemned to hell, which I sympathize with, as long as he has the humility to admit he could be wrong.

Does not matter. Scripture still has one meaning, not plural meanings. When Jesus called Peter the rock, Rock translates into Peter, or you could say Peter translates into Rock. But the point is Jesus changing Simons name into Peter which translates into Father is the same as how he changed Abram into Abraham that translates into Father also.

But that is not the point. The point is there is only one true meaning into scripture that is given to us by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus being the Savior is not a double meaning of scripture. As will all scripture it all has only one meaning, one translation into the truth.

There is only One meaning to scripture that Jesus taught. What you are saying is Jesus is Savior, by no means would state that the scripture has double meanings, IT just means that Jesus being savior is the fullness of the scripture revealed.

 

[glendab]

Hello Simpleas.

Not addressed to me…but… …isn’t what you are saying about hell being a fear motivator? That you leave “old ways” behind because you are afraid of going to hell for all eternity, rather than you experienced God’s love first, forgiveness and that was a prompting to leave “old ways” behind?.. If I’d heard how I’d burn in hell for one “mortal” sin at the time of death without confession, I don’t think I’d have ever grown in love and trust of Christ.
I’m glad I heard more of how God loves us, and that made me want to love him back as much as I could.

I am a convert and yes, I had to admit that I was headed straight to Hell in a hand basket and my butt was in a big jam with God Who was exactly Who He said He was and that it was all true, (meaning all in my Bible and all the Church taught, etc.) and yes I truly needed Salvation. This was an earth shattering time in my life and if you convert, you experience this part. I believe we all go through this in conversion and that it tends to get down-played in main stream media these days. No, no one was courting me or wooing me into the Church at all with love talks about the Jesus of the love stories many tell. There was none of that at all in my life. No one at all was interested in my personal salvation at the time. I wasn’t receiving any kind of information from any Catholic sources, no radio shows, no mass mailings of all kinds of stuff, no endless hours watching Mother Angelica on my tv. Nothing. No one in my neighborhood knocking on the door or anything like that. The only evangelization I received was the happenstance offerings of sources in my college courses in Philosophy and Western Civ and Polly Sci, etc. I was being introduced to the writings of a few Fathers of the Church without my really being aware of it. I got curious and read more on my own and the seeds they sowed all those millennia ago began to grow in my mind and heart. I was literally converted by books, not living persons. That is how the Holy Spirit reached me and when it did, I did feel what the Protestants call “convicted” of my sins. I learned that word later on. But I knew from my bones up that Hell was very real and a serious threat to my eternal well being and I needed to do something seriously different to get out of it. I remember those moments with God very well. He guided me through it and brought me to the waters of Baptism to wash away all that stuff. I couldn’t wait and did sweat quite often about this particular fact of life until then.

Yes, you are correct that perfect love is a much better reason to do all that pleases God, but quite honestly most of us aren’t Saints, and most folks if you could read their hearts when preparing for Confession go because they fear Hell more than they love God. Yeah, to me that is a given and is sufficient for the remission of sins. You can be forgiven your sins with “imperfect contrition,” that is if you fear Hell rather than because you have “perfect contrition” in that you love God so totally not even the smallest venial sin is possible and torments you to do. Um, I sincerely think most of us are of the imperfect variety and I am among sincere sinners while I wait in line for my turn in the box.

Glenda

 

[fred_conty]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.

LOVE!

The question “is it possible that God can relent on eternal punishment in hell?” is an awkward question since those in hell are there because of their own doing and will remain there because of their impotence to contrition. It is they who must relent and be sorry which of course is not possible. It is a sad state of affairs that they are the ones who lock themselves in.

We don’t really understand the full meaning of what it means to be in eternity and not in time. For we have never experienced it. But one meaning we do know and that is that in eternity nothing changes. For to change necessitates time. And being that there is no time in eternity, there is no time to change or to become contrite. Everyone is locked into whatever condition they are in when they enter eternity…love or hate.

This condition also applies to the Devil and his angels who are already in hell.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Amandil]

“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:8 (NKJV)
Hell is a form of punishment and is described as burning in a lake of fire and sulphur etc. It is a horrific form of punishment even for 1 second. In the developed World, no human judge would order that form of punishment for any criminal act including murder. However, God orders this punishment 24/7 for eternity for humans who do far less than murder someone. So how can mere humans show more love than God when sentencing someone?

This is process theism which is gathering favour amongst some theologians because they know that the God described in the Bible and the issue of hell are totally at odds (out of kilter) with an omnipotent God. God limits His own power so He cannot impose His divine will on people but God can try to persuade people about what should be done by utilising churches, evangelists etc. People will then either agree or disregard God’s advice given to them by a human. God’s inability to impose His divine will on the World is seen as a moral advantage, rendering God more respectable and more impressive. **Unfortunately, God’s omnipotence is sacrificed in order to better secure other attributes regarded as ultimately more important. **

Process theism again but I’ll flesh out my rebuttal a bit. So if you no longer love your husband/wife but he/she still loves you then you get put in the tumble dryer for ever! Unless they have a masochistic behaviour disorder (mentally ill), no human would chose hell if it existed.

Process theism again. How come God’s mercy is less than the judge’s mercy I mentioned earlier? Furthermore, how come God’s justice is woefully behind the justice systems in use in the developed World today? In our justice system, the punishment fits the crime. God’s justice system has only one default punishment – torture 24/7 for eternity regardless of the severity of the crime (sin).

Process theism again. However, I have never heard that “people will be punished with the sin they love more than God”. Don’t you mean “for” instead of “with”? The main problem here is that God is not seen as “real” by most people. I read on a Catholic website: “Because it is not evident that God punishes in this life, He must do it in the after life”. Most people do not see any** evidence **for God in this World. They “can’t feel” His love. When people die, they will “actually feel” God’s love and will definitely not love their sins more than God’s love. You are using the “fear factor” to evangelise by threatening people with extreme punishment unless they repent before they die.

Process theism again.

That is my objection. The punishment you are advocating is “way out of kilter” with the crime (sin) committed. And, no matter how you try to wriggle out of it Amandil, under our Church’s teaching, children can go to hell.

Whilst they may or may not think of God, the vast majority of mankind directs their will (hearts) towards the good.

“Process theism” is not even a valid objection because neither I, nor Thomas Aquinas, nor anyone holding to orthodox Catholic Christianity are “process theists”. In fact the Church’s philosophical/metaphysical tradition as well as the Church’s teaching and Biblical Theology are diametrically opposed to it.

You apparently ran across this catchy little name and are trying to pin it on me when its clear that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. So you pull out this nifty little strawman argument.

You would do well to read “The God Who Loves You” by Peter Kreeft.

I’ll address the rest point by point later.

 

[simpleas]

Hello Simpleas.

I am a convert and yes, I had to admit that I was headed straight to Hell in a hand basket and my butt was in a big jam with God Who was exactly Who He said He was and that it was all true, (meaning all in my Bible and all the Church taught, etc.) and yes I truly needed Salvation. This was an earth shattering time in my life and if you convert, you experience this part. I believe we all go through this in conversion and that it tends to get down-played in main stream media these days. No, no one was courting me or wooing me into the Church at all with love talks about the Jesus of the love stories many tell. There was none of that at all in my life. No one at all was interested in my personal salvation at the time. I wasn’t receiving any kind of information from any Catholic sources, no radio shows, no mass mailings of all kinds of stuff, no endless hours watching Mother Angelica on my tv. Nothing. No one in my neighborhood knocking on the door or anything like that. The only evangelization I received was the happenstance offerings of sources in my college courses in Philosophy and Western Civ and Polly Sci, etc. I was being introduced to the writings of a few Fathers of the Church without my really being aware of it. I got curious and read more on my own and the seeds they sowed all those millennia ago began to grow in my mind and heart. I was literally converted by books, not living persons. That is how the Holy Spirit reached me and when it did, I did feel what the Protestants call “convicted” of my sins. I learned that word later on. But I knew from my bones up that Hell was very real and a serious threat to my eternal well being and I needed to do something seriously different to get out of it. I remember those moments with God very well. He guided me through it and brought me to the waters of Baptism to wash away all that stuff. I couldn’t wait and did sweat quite often about this particular fact of life until then.

Yes, you are correct that perfect love is a much better reason to do all that pleases God, but quite honestly most of us aren’t Saints, and most folks if you could read their hearts when preparing for Confession go because they fear Hell more than they love God. Yeah, to me that is a given and is sufficient for the remission of sins. You can be forgiven your sins with “imperfect contrition,” that is if you fear Hell rather than because you have “perfect contrition” in that you love God so totally not even the smallest venial sin is possible and torments you to do. Um, I sincerely think most of us are of the imperfect variety and I am among sincere sinners while I wait in line for my turn in the box.

Glenda

Thanks for sharing that, it is very interesting to me.

Personally I have never gone to confession fearing I’d go to hell, more of, going to confess my sin in sorrow and needing to feel free to love God.

 

[rinnie]

Not addressed to me…but…

isn’t what you are saying about hell being a fear motivator? That you leave “old ways” behind because you are afraid of going to hell for all eternity, rather than you experienced God’s love first, forgiveness and that was a prompting to leave “old ways” behind?

Fear works very well, we see it the world over, can be useful, but I’d prefer telling someone of God’s love first and foremost, rather than his punishment, if they do not change their ways.

This is the message I have always known from our church, the hell message has never been a large part of any teaching I’ve heard, only what was believed at the time the Gospels were written. If I’d heard how I’d burn in hell for one “mortal” sin at the time of death without confession, I don’t think I’d have ever grown in love and trust of Christ.
I’m glad I heard more of how God loves us, and that made me want to love him back as much as I could.

But just because the fear of hell would not make you grow in love and trust of Christ, does not mean that is not what Christ taught us. If we are in a state of Mortal sin and refuse to repent and quit the sin, and put our love of the sin over our love for Christ, hell is where we will go.

Here is what is taught.

ONE example. Romans 2:l read it. It continues to say by your stubbornness and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for YOURSELF for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God who will repay everyone according to his works eternal life to those who seek glory honor and immortality thorough perserverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

YES, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first then Greek. But there WILL BE glory for EVERYONE who does good, Jew first and then Greek, there is no partiality with God.

Rather people choose to accept the word of God or deny it, by no means changes the word of God. Its as plain as day you choose evil and wickedness all of your life you choose hell. Those are your works you are judged by.

You choose to obey the truth seek glory and honor in good works will have eternal life in heaven.

While no one can Judge one another, God can and will.

You cheat, you lie you steal and refuse to obey the commands of God you will be judged on that.

You do the best you can to turn from sin, repent the sin when you fail, and get it right in the end will get heaven.

Why would God tell us we are judged on our works if God does not judge us on our works?

 

[rinnie]

Thanks for sharing that, it is very interesting to me.

Personally I have never gone to confession fearing I’d go to hell, more of, going to confess my sin in sorrow and needing to feel free to love God.

Not me, I always go to confession to make sure I do my best to do what God made possible for me on the Cross and be forgiven for my sin. Why? Because I do not want to die in my sin and not ask for forgiveness and burn in hell.

Confession is repentance for sin. Although I have great Love for God, I do not repent because of my great love for him only, I repent for my great fear of not having him in my life.

Because to me. my life without God in it, would be full of fear, anxiety, stress, Any one horrible emotion possible.

God to me is who protects me against evil. and his sacrament of confession is what protects me from my own selfish sins. It opens my eyes to what I need to do.

 

[rinnie]

The question “is it possible that God can relent on eternal punishment in hell?” is an awkward question since those in hell are there because of their own doing and will remain there because of their impotence to contrition. It is they who must relent and be sorry which of course is not possible. It is a sad state of affairs that they are the ones who lock themselves in.

We don’t really understand the full meaning of what it means to be in eternity and not in time. For we have never experienced it. But one meaning we do know and that is that in eternity nothing changes. For to change necessitates time. And being that there is no time in eternity, there is no time to change or to become contrite. Everyone is locked into whatever condition they are in when they enter eternity…love or hate.

This condition also applies to the Devil and his angels who are already in hell.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

Exactly, if they wanted God, they would have willingly repented when they had the chance. God gives everyone millions of chances to do so. They never took the chance, nor are ever willing to take the chance period.

God knows all, and who will and does accept him, and those who don’t and never will.

The reason God would or never could relent on the eternal punishment of someone in hell, would mean that he did not Judge them Justly in the first place, which is impossible. And in complete contradiction with the word of God. And God does not contradict himself.

The word of God states God Judges all Justly according to their works.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

Since you are going personal, so will I. I am a convert and you are a revert; not much difference except you stepped away for a while. However, I think I may have a little different twist to my story then you do to yours. Let me explain: Since I’ve been Catholic, I’ve listened to several other conversion stories and one thing I noticed when we get down to the heart-to-heart sharing is a stripping away of old presumptive notions, an “Oh, my God!” moment we share in that when we look at each other, we know beyond words that we’ve experienced the exact same thing with variations that are commensurate with our varying states in life and conditions. But one thread remains common for all of us, when one realizes one is headed straight to Hell in a hand basket and unless and until Jesus actually saves one, one is doomed and this usually is accompanied by great moaning and tears and all kinds of feelings of fright and sweat and it happens over a period of time and changes your life. It feels like being two inches tall suddenly in forty foot tall world and your sins usually pervade your thoughts night and day and at that point you are greatly moved within yourself to do all kinds of crazy stuff. Some run for the Rectory and some even pound on the doors of Convents and Monasteries and such. Some quit their jobs and some give up booze and some let their mistresses know they aren’t available anymore. Et cetera. Lives are forever changed in those moments of conversion madness and many pity what they witness in converts when they see them with the sweats, etc. But many around them are also smiling inwardly and praising God for His shower of blessings of conversion in those same lives. The Holy Spirit moves souls to the Church all the time and it is a very beautiful thing to watch and have happen in ones life. God really did save me as I was headed straight to Hell and totally unaware of my plight for long sad time.

One thing in common in all this conversion madness that those of us who’ve been through it share - Hell is a very loud reality and must be dealt with and when one goes through this if one doubts anything every again about one’s faith, it sure as Hell isn’t Hell. Been there, done that, even have the T-shirt!

So, please share your experience of your reversion when you may have noticed you were going to Hell and thought in your mind you should return to the Sacraments, especially Confession. How did you go from that to disbelieving that Hell is a reality and an eternity long?

Glenda

I have never said that I believe that hell is not real, at least not since 31 Jan 2000, as a matter of fact, I have stated that I KNOW that hell is real for the simple reason that I have experienced hell and that I do NOT believe for a nanosecond, or less, that I have experienced worse than Jesus.

For that matter, I have also experienced spiritual death.

It just so happens that it was on 31 Jan 2000 that I experienced both hell and spiritual death.

I happen to believe that when Jesus said, “Simon, thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build MY CHURCH and the ‘gates of the netherworld shall NOT prevail against It’”, Jesus was telling ALL of us the “mission” of His Church.

I also believe that God “knew” that I needed to experience hell and spiritual death to even attempt to do the “job” that God chose for me to do.

It is my opinion that hell and spiritual death are the netherworld and it is the “gates” to these that will not prevail against Jesus’s Church, in other words, by Jesus’s work in the Incarnation, He has “won” the “keys” to the “gates” of the netherworld and will use these in due time, God’s Time.

I, most certainly, do NOT believe that the vast majority of humanity will go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… , as some seem to believe.

It does seem tho that the more Catholic, at least what some consider more Catholic, one is the less catholic one is.