Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m having my own private chuckle here. With 23,000 views of this thread, I’m think quite a few people are desperately looking for the proverbial loophole.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I accept this Tom, but why then do you continue to define scripture your way, and not interpret the way the CC teaches?

I happen to think that it is fine to use our God-given mental abilities.

I also think that it is fine for one to believe God-Incarnate when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit.

Just because something means something in scripture does not mean that that is the only thing that it means.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’m having my own private chuckle here. With 23,000 views of this thread, I’m think quite a few people are desperately looking for the proverbial loophole.

Or believe that Jesus really is the Saviour of the world and for that matter, all of creation.

 

[Amandil]

As Jesus said when asked by the Apostles about who can be saved, “With man, it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible”.

Which does not include meaningless contradictions ir violations of His plan-including violating our human natures.
Tom Baum:

I trust that God knows what God Is doing and that God’s Plan is truly catholic, which I believe God has had since before creation and that God’s Will is catholic just as it is written.

Yet you don’t trust God in the fact that He explicitly mentioned that hell is eternal.

Tom, have you ever considered the possibility that there are people who are in such a state that an eternity in heaven would be worse to them than an eternity in hell?

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

Or believe that Jesus really is the Saviour of the world and** for that matter, all of creation**.

Does your interpretation of all of creation include the fallen angels? If so, are you aware that Origen said this too and that it isn’t an original interpretation?

Glenda

 

[rinnie]

I happen to think that it is fine to use our God-given mental abilities.

I also think that it is fine for one to believe God-Incarnate when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit.

Just because something means something in scripture does not mean that that is the only thing that it means.

Also scripture cannot have 2 meanings. If it did then you would have to say we have a Holy Spirit that teaches chaos.

Scripture can indeed have several teachings, but ONLY if the meanings all agree with eachother.

 

[rinnie]

I happen to think that it is fine to use our God-given mental abilities.

I also think that it is fine for one to believe God-Incarnate when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit.

Just because something means something in scripture does not mean that that is the only thing that it means.

Every scripture has a meaning that is translated to us by the Church. We call that following the teaching of the Early Fathers of the Church as in Timothy we are taught to do.

Giving yourself the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture and ignore or disagree with what the Church teaches is sola-scripture. That is why you believe you can define scripture and have the power to do so, even though the bible tells you that you do not.

So either you are protestant messing with me, or you claim to be Catholic but refuse to accept the teachings of your Church.

I am not telling you what I think, I am telling you what the Church teaches.

 

[rinnie]

Tom, When Jesus quoted the Psalm he did not quote it because it was becoming true as he said it.

Jesus stated the Psalm because it was PREDICTED that this is what would happen to him, and the Jews knew that scripture, and by stating that scripture they SAW what they have done.

They missed it Tom, they did not realize that everything that happened to Jesus was predicted in their scripture.

When he said My God My God why have you forsaken me, many through he was calling on God, but the Jews knew that scripture, the Jews are the chosen people. It was then that they said we just killed an innocent man.

Yes Christ died for the sins of all men. But when in scripture does it state all men will go to heaven?

 

[rinnie]

2 Peter 21

No prophecy ever came through human will but rather human beings spoke under the influence of God.

None of us has the power of the Holy Spirit as humans to define scripture. The bible tells us Jesus picked certain people for this.

And yes it is not only Fine to believe in God- Incarnate it is necessary to believe. But he indeed said he was sending the Holy Spirit to the Church to teach us. He never said we have the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture, and teach ourself.

He said the Church was the pilar of all truth not us.
We all have different gifts.

IF you have the power of the Holy Spirit to do all things, can you give me absolution for my sins?

If you claim this power to do all things, and claim it to interpret scripture, then I am sure you can also forgive my sins correct? And you can also turn bread and wine into the Living Christ also? You can give me last rights? Baptize? Give Holy Orders? Communion,Confirmation, Marry people in the Church?

 

[glendab]

Yeah Rinnie! Good job. Keep it up. :clapping:

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Which does not include meaningless contradictions ir violations of His plan-including violating our human natures.

Just because you can’t think of a way that God can do something without “violating our human natures” doesn’t mean that God can’t.

Yet you don’t trust God in the fact that He explicitly mentioned that hell is eternal.

God also mentions new heavens and a new earth.

It also states explicitly that IT IS GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED.

There is much stated “explicitly” referring to the catholicity of God’s actions concerning God’s creation.

Death is suppose to go by the wayside, maybe eternity will too.

Who knows, maybe death and some other things will be thrown into “eternity”, could be God’s “black hole” or God’s “vacumn clearner” or words to that effect.

As I have said before, I do not know the details, only God does.

I hope that God’s Plan is catholic and that it falls in line with God’s catholic will.

I also hope and believe that God’s Justice and Mercy are so intertwined as to be One.

I have been told that I should not hope for some of the things that lI hope for, I will hope for them anyway.

I, definitely, do NOT hope for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and… .

Seeing as we are made in the “Image and Likeness of God”, maybe it will only be a speck that gets in and all of the rest is “burnt” away but somehow or another God’s Will will come to Fruition.

Some mention God’s infinite Mercy but when they attempt to put it into concrete terms, there seems to be little if any mercy spoken of.

I like that the Mass is in the vernacular and one of the reasons I like it being in the vernacular is that I understand the vernacular and at some Masses, the Priest prays for God to have MERCY on us ALL.

Tom, have you ever considered the possibility that there are people who are in such a state that an eternity in heaven would be worse to them than an eternity in hell?

I have considered the “fact” that hell is worse than any human being can imagine and that anyone who says some of the things that I have heard said concerning hell, does not have a clue.

God can “CLEAN” anyone and I believe that God can somehow “convince” anyone that they want to be “CLEANED” without “violating their free will”.

As Jesus told us, “With God ALL things are possible”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

Does your interpretation of all of creation include the fallen angels? If so, are you aware that Origen said this too and that it isn’t an original interpretation?

Glenda

All of creation means quite simply all of creation, known and unknown.

Doesn’t matter to me if it is original or not, I am just rooting for God.

 

[Amandil]

Just because you can’t think of a way that God can do something without “violating our human natures” doesn’t mean that God can’t.

It DOES mean that He won’t. Because such a God would NOT be a LOVING God but a TYRANT.

It seems that you would rather have a TYRANNICAL God who forces everyone into heaven, even against their wills.

It also states explicitly that IT IS GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED.

Which does not mean that ALL will be saved against their will.

I don’t know if you’re at this point being purposefully obtuse or if you really don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

Death is suppose to go by the wayside,

Death-the separation of the soul from the body-WILL END. There will be no possibility for anyone’s soul to be separated from their bodies.

It is no way follows from that sentence that hell will “end”.

…maybe eternity will too.

How? Please explain how an eternity which is not bound to any change will end?

Who knows, maybe death and some other things will be thrown into “eternity”, could be God’s “black hole” or God’s “vacumn clearner” or words to that effect.

As I have said before, I do not know the details, only God does.

Which means that all of your speculation based upon your own sentiments is meaningless.

I, definitely, do NOT hope for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and… .

No one does. And your continual mischaracterizations of people’s words because they are emphasizing an essential fact of revealed truth that you are explicitly denying demonstrates your ignorance in the matter.

If you don’t know, and refuse to accept the knowledge that others do have based upon God’s own Word, then perhaps you should keep silent.

Some mention God’s infinite Mercy but when they attempt to put it into concrete terms, there seems to be little if any mercy spoken of.

Because mercy must be ACCEPTED in order to be applied.

Those who refuse to accept mercy as a gift WILL NOT RECEIVE MERCY.

Again, that’s no failure on God’s part.

I like that the Mass is in the vernacular and one of the reasons I like it being in the vernacular is that I understand the vernacular and at some Masses, the Priest prays for God to have MERCY on us ALL.

What that means is that Christ’s sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for all.

It **does not **mean that Christ’s sacrifice was/is EFFICACIOUS for all.

For Christ’s sacrifice to be efficacious it must be applied to the person by grace through faith.

I have considered the “fact” that hell is worse than any human being can imagine and that anyone who says some of the things that I have heard said concerning hell, does not have a clue.

You didn’t answer my question. I didn’t as you what you think about hell. I asked you if your have ever considered that there are people out there for whom heaven would be a worse torment than hell?

I’m telling you, that when it comes to someone who is in a persistent state of habitual sin and hostility towards God, that you don’t have a clue.

God can “CLEAN” anyone and I believe that God can somehow “convince” anyone that they want to be “CLEANED” without “violating their free will”.

As Jesus told us, “With God ALL things are possible”.

Yeah, Tom, WITH God. Not without God.

People who refuse to be WITH GOD by necessity do not want to be WITH GOD.

And if nothing else this thread is proof that NO ONE can be convinced of something that they DO NOT WANT TO BE CONVINCED OF.

And “convincing” someone by force against their will is not to “convince”, it’s to coerce.

Again it seems that your perfectly happy with a Tyrant God who enforces salvation though coercion.

I rather believe in a God who woos and compels through love, saving those who submit to Him; and at the same time respects the freedom of those who abuse that freedom and refuse Him and thus choose hell.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

Just because you can’t think of a way that God can do something without “violating our human natures” doesn’t mean that God can’t".

The problem as I see it is that Amandil has a different understanding of God’s attributes than you do Tom. He knows that God will NEVER violate any person’s free will. He won’t. He doesn’t. He never will. You don’t see it this way. So, fundamentally there is a difference between how you view God’s basic attributes and how Amandil does. You agree to disagree. I too, disagree with this and am enjoying how you’ve fleshed out for us how you see things. It is fascinating and informative. I’ve grown in my understanding of how these conclusions get drawn and I’d like to thank you Tom, for sharing your point of view with us.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Amandil.

It DOES mean that He won’t. Because such a God would NOT be a LOVING God but a TYRANT.

It seems that you would rather have a TYRANNICAL God who forces everyone into heaven, even against their wills.

Which does not mean that ALL will be saved against their will.

I don’t know if you’re at this point being purposefully obtuse or if you really don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

Death-the separation of the soul from the body-WILL END. There will be no possibility for anyone’s soul to be separated from their bodies.

It is no way follows from that sentence that hell will “end”.

How? Please explain how an eternity which is not bound to any change will end?

Which means that all of your speculation based upon your own sentiments is meaningless.

No one does. And your continual mischaracterizations of people’s words because they are emphasizing an essential fact of revealed truth that you are explicitly denying demonstrates your ignorance in the matter.

If you don’t know, and refuse to accept the knowledge that others do have based upon God’s own Word, then perhaps you should keep silent.

Because mercy must be ACCEPTED in order to be applied.

Those who refuse to accept mercy as a gift WILL NOT RECEIVE MERCY.

Again, that’s no failure on God’s part.

What that means is that Christ’s sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for all.

It **does not **mean that Christ’s sacrifice was/is EFFICACIOUS for all.

For Christ’s sacrifice to be efficacious it must be applied to the person by grace through faith.

You didn’t answer my question. I didn’t as you what you think about hell. I asked you if your have ever considered that there are people out there for whom heaven would be a worse torment than hell?

I’m telling you, that when it comes to someone who is in a persistent state of habitual sin and hostility towards God, that you don’t have a clue.

Yeah, Tom, WITH God. Not without God.

People who refuse to be WITH GOD by necessity do not want to be WITH GOD.

And if nothing else this thread is proof that NO ONE can be convinced of something that they DO NOT WANT TO BE CONVINCED OF.

And “convincing” someone by force against their will is not to “convince”, it’s to coerce.

Again it seems that your perfectly happy with a Tyrant God who enforces salvation though coercion.

I rather believe in a God who woos and compels through love, saving those who submit to Him; and at the same time respects the freedom of those who abuse that freedom and refuse Him and thus choose hell.

Excellent points. Thanks.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Amandil and Tom.

…People who refuse to be WITH GOD by necessity do not want to be WITH GOD…

This is a deeper reality than expressed and needs a little addition that I feel is appropriate at this particular time: Eternity. As in “People who refuse to be with God by necessity do not want to be with God” FOR ETERNITY. Yeppers, that’s pretty much it.

Or as I’ve heard before: The Theme Song for Hell is “I Did It My Way.”

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Also scripture cannot have 2 meanings. If it did then you would have to say we have a Holy Spirit that teaches chaos.

Scripture can indeed have several teachings, but ONLY if the meanings all agree with eachother.

You might say that the Holy Spirit “teaches chaos” but I don’t.

Semantics aside, God can speak volumes without words or Scripture.

 

[simpleas]

Hello Amandil and Tom.

This is a deeper reality than expressed and needs a little addition that I feel is appropriate at this particular time: Eternity. As in “People who refuse to be with God by necessity do not want to be with God” FOR ETERNITY. Yeppers, that’s pretty much it.

Or as I’ve heard before: The Theme Song for Hell is “I Did It My Way.”

Glenda

Great so humans can see into the soul of a person and know that they must chose an eternity without God…

The “I did it my way” song could also be a theme song for heaven, people doing things their way may also be a good way, not necessarily a bad way…

 

[Tom_Baum]

It DOES mean that He won’t. Because such a God would NOT be a LOVING God but a TYRANT.

It seems that you would rather have a TYRANNICAL God who forces everyone into heaven, even against their wills.

I did NOT say anything about God “forcing”, yet you did.

Which does not mean that ALL will be saved against their will.

I don’t know if you’re at this point being purposefully obtuse or if you really don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation.

I never said anything about “against their will”, you did.

As far as saying that I “don’t understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation”, the quote that I quoted says, “IT IS GOD’S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED.”, it does NOT say, “It is God’s Will that ALL be redeemed”, does it?

Death-the separation of the soul from the body-WILL END. There will be no possibility for anyone’s soul to be separated from their bodies.

It is no way follows from that sentence that hell will “end”.

How? Please explain how an eternity which is not bound to any change will end?

Which means that all of your speculation based upon your own sentiments is meaningless.

I am the first to say that I am not God and I do not know everything that will unfold but from meeting God, I hope for some things that others have told me that it is hopeless to hope for, I will hope for them anyway.

And yet it does say something to the effect about “new heavens and a new earth” and all former things passing away.

I hope that God truly is deserving of all of the good “adjectives” bestowed on God and I will continue to believe in the God that I met.

No one does. And your continual mischaracterizations of people’s words because they are emphasizing an essential fact of revealed truth that you are explicitly denying demonstrates your ignorance in the matter.

If you don’t know, and refuse to accept the knowledge that others do have based upon God’s own Word, then perhaps you should keep silent.

As far as “No one does”, you can’t speak for everyone and I don’t know for a fact but I believe that there are people that actually do hope for some to be in hell for ever and ever and… .

I am not trying to imply that some do hope for others to be in hell for ever and ever and…, that believe that God came up with such an uncatholic Plan and even tho I very much "do NOT hope for anyone to be in hell for ever and ever and… ., I will add that I do not believe that God’s Plan is so lacking, seeing as God had eternity to come up with God’s Plan before creation.

And as far as you saying that I “should keep silent”, I did not pick me to speak, God did and I will continue to at least try to speak, maybe when you meet God, you can take it up with God.

Because mercy must be ACCEPTED in order to be applied.

Those who refuse to accept mercy as a gift WILL NOT RECEIVE MERCY.

Again, that’s no failure on God’s part.

What that means is that Christ’s sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for all.

It **does not **mean that Christ’s sacrifice was/is EFFICACIOUS for all.

For Christ’s sacrifice to be efficacious it must be applied to the person by grace through faith.

God has His Ways and God has told us that He does.

You didn’t answer my question. I didn’t as you what you think about hell. I asked you if your have ever considered that there are people out there for whom heaven would be a worse torment than hell?

I’m telling you, that when it comes to someone who is in a persistent state of habitual sin and hostility towards God, that you don’t have a clue.

Yeah, Tom, WITH God. Not without God.

People who refuse to be WITH GOD by necessity do not want to be WITH GOD.

And if nothing else this thread is proof that NO ONE can be convinced of something that they DO NOT WANT TO BE CONVINCED OF.

And “convincing” someone by force against their will is not to “convince”, it’s to coerce.

Again it seems that your perfectly happy with a Tyrant God who enforces salvation though coercion.

I rather believe in a God who woos and compels through love, saving those who submit to Him; and at the same time respects the freedom of those who abuse that freedom and refuse Him and thus choose hell.

I have said many times that the “Consuming Fire of Love” can caress or burn.

I would rather believe in a God Who doesn’t have to conform to my expectations or lack of expectations, IOW a God Who ls God and I am grateful that God has revealed to me that the “little statement” that I learned in 2nd grade, that GOD IS LOVE, is quite literal.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

The problem as I see it is that Amandil has a different understanding of God’s attributes than you do Tom. He knows that God will NEVER violate any person’s free will. He won’t. He doesn’t. He never will. You don’t see it this way. So, fundamentally there is a difference between how you view God’s basic attributes and how Amandil does. You agree to disagree. I too, disagree with this and am enjoying how you’ve fleshed out for us how you see things. It is fascinating and informative. I’ve grown in my understanding of how these conclusions get drawn and I’d like to thank you Tom, for sharing your point of view with us.

Glenda

As far as, “You don’t see it this way”, I have never ever said that God will violate someone’s free will because if God did that than it is my opinion that this would mean that there is no free will whatsoever since partial free will for either the individual or mankind in general means NO FREE WILL at all for anyone, it is that simple.

Free will is either total or it is not free will at all since there is NO such thing as “partial free will”.

Convincing is not the same thing as forcing.

Just because we can’t envision or conceive of a way or ways that God might do something or get thru to someone or whatever, doesn’t mean that God can’t.

When we try to “box” God in, no matter how GOOD our intentions, all that we do is to attempt to “belittle” God, right word or wrong word, I don’t know, what I am trying to say is that God does NOT have our limits.

God is truly the God of surprises.

I have heard it said that God does not make mistakes, I have to take that to heart more so than most people could ever imagine.