Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

…I am with you, the RCC is led by the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not leave us orphans. It is in ignorance that a person outright reject Church teachings, for all of them are inspired. Revelation, however, unfolds.

Some Church teachings, though inspired, contradict one another in the minds of humans, and they are in need of clarification. After all, they are written by humans. And, revelation is also found in creation, as said Aquinas, and we are learning more and more about creation through the use of sciences. The revelation of the sciences, especially psychology, neurology, and so forth provide new material to add to inspired doctrine.

The revelation of God to His Church is complete. Nothing more will be added to it nor will anything of it be taken away. Science has nothing to reveal to the Church. Doctrine is doctrine and the shrink and the nero aren’t going to assist us in anyway to know God one bit better. If fact, most of them would agree that revelation is way out of their respective fields and our doctrines need no assistance from them. Another of your Boo-boos OneSheep. You have plenty don’t you?

Glenda

P.S. Keep the prayers comin’ Looks like more surgery for me. UGH!!! I hate stiches. They itch but you can’t scratch.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I don’t imagine what you may think I imagine.
What I have observed are people becoming evermore Christ-like and others becoming demonic.
Ultimately, most hope to participate in the Trinity, for want of a better way to express it, through Christ, joining all the angels and saints in the Beatific Vision.
Conversely, we can become sin itself. At that point there is no more humanity, no person left.
For those who become sin itself, this experience is no different from what we may all experience but relinquish in life, sin within us. Those in hell do not relinquish what they have become.
Again, Christ takes on all our sins; hell exists in eternity.
At any rate, hopefully you do fear the Lord. It is a grace of the Holy Spirit and it is good to do so; it means one is in touch with reality. There is absolutely nothing else to fear - this world is transient and sin has been vanquished

You wrote, “Conversely, we can become sin itself.”

I believe that is what the bible said about Jesus, “He Who did not sin, became sin for us”, God DESTROYED the power of sin by God’s work on the cross, kind of a shame that not many believe it and a much bigger shame that many seem to wish it were not so and I am speaking of “believers” here.

You also wrote, “At any rate, hopefully you do fear the Lord. It is a grace of the Holy Spirit and it is good to do so; it means one is in touch with reality. There is absolutely nothing else to fear - this world is transient and sin has been vanquished”.

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God, it has to do with “reverence and awe”, not fear.

And as far as, “sin has been vanquished”, if “sin has been vanquished”, as you wrote, then why do so many think that sin has so much power still?

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

… The Church has never said that anyone is in hell…However, I grant that a decision to go to hell is possible. I just cannot come up with a scenario where an aware person so chooses

What about my Fatima example further up the thread? Mary showed the three children Hell and told them that is where the souls of the damned are in torment forever. Does she qualify as speaking on behalf of the Church? Hell is real. The three children saw it. The Mother of God said it is where the damned go. Now, if Mary is qualified in your book to speak on behalf of the Church, would you say the Church has said someone is in Hell?

To refresh your memory:

The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Now, for the other thing I pointed out above, choosing Hell. Have you read the news lately coming from Oklahoma and the Satanist sect renting a hall to show off their santanic black mass stuff? They choose Hell every day of the week and obviously are proud enough of it to want to show off at a public place in Oklahoma. Don’t think too hard about this OneSheep, but haven’t they knowingly chosen Hell?

Glenda

 

[Mark121359]

Can you understand the struggle, even though you do not share the struggle? Can you empathize with them, even though it is not your difficulty?

No. I can’t understand the struggle. God gave us the power to choose. Many choose not to love God. To reject Him is to choose hell. The only way I can understand a struggle, is if you’re a convert let’s say that’s struggling with Mary…but to struggle with the existence of hell? No, I don’t get it. I think to deny it is to deny Church Authority, or worse…to deny Jesus Himself who warned over and over about the reality and pains of hell. And nowhere…nowhere, do I ever recall Him saying "but don’t worry too much over it…for it’s only temporary!

For example, am I hearing from you that you request that we should all not question, but unconditionally accept what the Church teaches? I think this is what I am hearing. Are you feeling a bit disappointed in those who do not do this? Are you seeking like-mindedness from everyone? These are all quite understandable, if this is the case.

Yep, that’s what your hearing. I trust my Church and all that she teaches. Who the heck am I to challenge ***His ***Church that has 2000+ years of teaching behind it. And if I can challenge her teachings on hell, why can’t I also challenge her teachings on Mary, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, or the Real Presence? The fact of the matter is, is that many Catholics do challenge her. Just look at the divisions that are already dividing the faithful. It’s a real predicament the Church finds herself in today, with so many dissenting Catholics. Many Catholics refuse to go to confession, saying they rather confess their sins straight to Jesus, rather than another human being. It’s been said that only 1 in 3 Catholics believe in the Real Presence. And Mary? My poor innocent Mother has taken a thrashing on some of the threads I’ve seen on here! I refuse to go along with this herd mentality of “catholics” today, who “pick and choose” what they will or will not believe. I fully accept everything that Holy Mother Church teaches…and yes, unconditionally…as all Catholics should!

Peace, Mark

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello OneSheep.

What about my Fatima example further up the thread? Mary showed the three children Hell and told them that is where the souls of the damned are in torment forever. Does she qualify as speaking on behalf of the Church? Hell is real. The three children saw it. The Mother of God said it is where the damned go. Now, if Mary is qualified in your book to speak on behalf of the Church, would you say the Church has said someone is in Hell?

To refresh your memory:

The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Now, for the other thing I pointed out above, choosing Hell. Have you read the news lately coming from Oklahoma and the Satanist sect renting a hall to show off their santanic black mass stuff? They choose Hell every day of the week and obviously are proud enough of it to want to show off at a public place in Oklahoma. Don’t think too hard about this OneSheep, but haven’t they knowingly chosen Hell?

Glenda

Two of the prayers that I found on the Fatima posting:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

One prayer asks for “pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, I would think that that would mean ALL, that “do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, quite the catholic prayer, I would say.

The other prayer also asks Jesus to “pardon us” and to “Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”, another prayer that I would also consider very catholic.

These two prayers seem very simple and very direct in what they are about, how come so many seem to think that these prayers are utterly without merit?

HOW MUCH MORE SIMPLE DOES GOD NEED TO BE WHEN HE SENDS US PRAYERS SUCH AS THESE?

These prayers did come from the “Our Lady of Fatima” website that you posted, don’t they seem rather straightforward and to the point to you?

Do you think that whoever asked us to pray these prayers asked us to pray them in vain?

 

[Tom_Baum]

No. I can’t understand the struggle. God gave us the power to choose. Many choose not to love God. To reject Him is to choose hell. The only way I can understand a struggle, is if you’re a convert let’s say that’s struggling with Mary…but to struggle with the existence of hell? No, I don’t get it. I think to deny it is to deny Church Authority, or worse…to deny Jesus Himself who warned over and over about the reality and pains of hell. And nowhere…nowhere, do I ever recall Him saying "but don’t worry too much over it…for it’s only temporary!

Yep, that’s what your hearing. I trust my Church and all that she teaches. Who the heck am I to challenge ***His ***Church that has 2000+ years of teaching behind it. And if I can challenge her teachings on hell, why can’t I also challenge her teachings on Mary, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, or the Real Presence? The fact of the matter is, is that many Catholics do challenge her. Just look at the divisions that are already dividing the faithful. It’s a real predicament the Church finds herself in today, with so many dissenting Catholics. Many Catholics refuse to go to confession, saying they rather confess their sins straight to Jesus, rather than another human being. It’s been said that only 1 in 3 Catholics believe in the Real Presence. And Mary? My poor innocent Mother has taken a thrashing on some of the threads I’ve seen on here! I refuse to go along with this herd mentality of “catholics” today, who “pick and choose” what they will or will not believe. I fully accept everything that Holy Mother Church teaches…and yes, unconditionally…as all Catholics should!

Peace, Mark

You wrote, " I fully accept everything that Holy Mother Church teaches"

Does the “Holy Mother Church” teach these two prayers:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

If so, doesn’t it seem that these two prayers are quite simple and to the point and catholic?

catholic

adjective
universal; relating to all men; all-inclusive
comprehensive in interests, tastes, etc; broad-minded; liberal

 

[Mark121359]

Hello OneSheep.

What about my Fatima example further up the thread? Mary showed the three children Hell and told them that is where the souls of the damned are in torment forever. Does she qualify as speaking on behalf of the Church? Hell is real. The three children saw it. The Mother of God said it is where the damned go. Now, if Mary is qualified in your book to speak on behalf of the Church, would you say the Church has said someone is in Hell?

To refresh your memory:

The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Glenda

Glendab, here’s an interesting article I thought you might find interesting that describes a conversation Sr. Lucia had with a Priest on hell.

The following is a rare interview with Sister Lucia [the Fatima visionary who died in
2005], by Father Lombardi. It was recorded in the Vatican weekly “Osservatore della
Domenica” February 7, 1954.

Fr. Lombardi: “Tell me, is the ‘Better World Movement’ a response of the Church to the
words spoken by Our Lady?”

***Lucia: ***“Father, there is certainly a great need for this renewal. If it is not done, and taking
into account the present development of humanity, only a limited number of the human
race will be saved.”

Fr. Lombardi: “Do you really believe that many will go to Hell? I hope that God will save
the greater part of humanity.” *[He had just written a book entitled: Salvation for Those
Without Faith] *

Lucia: “Father, many will be lost.”

Fr. Lombardi: “It is true that the world is full of evil, but there is always a hope of
salvation.”

Lucia: “No Father, many will be lost.”

***Father Lombardi remembered that Lucia had seen Hell and added: “Her words deeply disturbed me. I returned to Italy with that grave warning impressed on my heart.” ***

---

Peace, Mark***

 

[powerofk]

Two of the prayers that I found on the Fatima posting:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

One prayer asks for “pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, I would think that that would mean ALL, that “do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, quite the catholic prayer, I would say.

The other prayer also asks Jesus to “pardon us” and to “Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”, another prayer that I would also consider very catholic.

These two prayers seem very simple and very direct in what they are about, how come so many seem to think that these prayers are utterly without merit?

HOW MUCH MORE SIMPLE DOES GOD NEED TO BE WHEN HE SENDS US PRAYERS SUCH AS THESE?

These prayers did come from the “Our Lady of Fatima” website that you posted, don’t they seem rather straightforward and to the point to you?

Do you think that whoever asked us to pray these prayers asked us to pray them in vain?

Ah, but the prayers are actually asking Jesus to send more graces on unbelievers and those in mortal sin so that they will find it in themselves to come to Jesus and repent of their sins. Once a soul is in Hell, it has closed itself off to love - and God. The person has rejected God’s love, refusing communion with God and the Church for all eternity - and has chosen communion with only one person - himself/herself. When we sin, we put our own will above God’s Will. When we sin mortally, we practically indulge in self worship. Each and every mortal sin is the same sin as the sin of Adam - believing that we human beings can make ourselves like God and determine for ourselves what is good and what is evil. A soul of a person who dies in mortal sin does not wish to be with God, because the person has made himself/herself into his/her own “god”. The soul cannot go to Heaven because it finds being with God to be detestable.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ah, but the prayers are actually asking Jesus to send more graces on unbelievers and those in mortal sin so that they will find it in themselves to come to Jesus and repent of their sins. Once a soul is in Hell, it has closed itself off to love - and God. The person has rejected God’s love, refusing communion with God and the Church for all eternity - and has chosen communion with only one person - himself/herself. When we sin, we put our own will above God’s Will. When we sin mortally, we practically indulge in self worship. Each and every mortal sin is the same sin as the sin of Adam - believing that we human beings can make ourselves like God and determine for ourselves what is good and what is evil. A soul of a person who dies in mortal sin does not wish to be with God, because the person has made himself/herself into his/her own “god”. The soul cannot go to Heaven because it finds being with God to be detestable.

The prayer does not ask “Jesus to send more graces on unbelievers and those in mortal sin so that they will find it in themselves to come to Jesus and repent of their sins” but simply asks Jesus to “Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”.

It doesn’t say just how Jesus is to do this, it leaves this up to Jesus.

You can read all that you want into the prayer but it seems as if God intentionally made it simple, simple enough even for theologians to understand it, if they would open themselves up to it.

You wrote, “A soul of a person who dies in mortal sin does not wish to be with God, because the person has made himself/herself into his/her own “god”. The soul cannot go to Heaven because it finds being with God to be detestable”

Maybe they are with God but the “Consuming Fire of Love” which is God, is burning, as opposed to caressing them and that is why God has sent us these prayers to pray as they are, not as we think they should be.

I can not speak for others and I do not think that you can either, can you?

As I said, I can not speak for others but I can pray for ALL and not just at Mass.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

Two of the prayers that I found on the Fatima posting:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

One prayer asks for “pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, I would think that that would mean ALL, that “do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you”, quite the catholic prayer, I would say.

The other prayer also asks Jesus to “pardon us” and to “Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”, another prayer that I would also consider very catholic.

These two prayers seem very simple and very direct in what they are about, how come so many seem to think that these prayers are utterly without merit?

HOW MUCH MORE SIMPLE DOES GOD NEED TO BE WHEN HE SENDS US PRAYERS SUCH AS THESE?

These prayers did come from the “Our Lady of Fatima” website that you posted, don’t they seem rather straightforward and to the point to you?

Do you think that whoever asked us to pray these prayers asked us to pray them in vain?

Are you going to mention all of the "ALL"s you find in Scripture and Tradition and claim they support your notion of Universal Salvation? Really.

You’re developing and “until” mentality and argument. What is that? Well, the Protestants use Scripture to refute the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by pointing to the word “until” in a particular passage, Matthew 1:25 “He had no relations with her **until **she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.” They say this means that after she gave birth, there followed regular marital relations because of the simply logic that appears to be there. But we as Catholics know better, don’t we? Your use of the word “all” seems to be to be being used in a similar fashion.

Now, Tom don’t get upset. These are just my opinions and I’m no expert on anything but chocolate rugelach (רוגעלך) and coffee which I cannot have till I get back form Church this morning.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Mark.

Glendab, here’s an interesting article I thought you might find interesting that describes a conversation Sr. Lucia had with a Priest on hell.

---

Peace, Mark***

Yes, I am aware of the conversation and remark. However, I’ve even found that to not be strong enough for some types and they distort Lucia’s “many” to “most” and walk around shaking their heads over everyone else’s sins (while ignoring their own) and say “Oh well, Mary said MOST will go to Hell…” and smile. So, sadly there are folks on either side of that little word too. Amazing how much trouble can be caused the by one or two little words. Silliness.

Glenda

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Rinnie! I’ve been a bit too busy to respond lately.

This Abba who welcomes everyone into heaven is not the Abba of the RCC. Nor was ever a teaching of God. This relationship you claim to have I cannot understand. No disrespect. It is what we call a false doctrine.

The priest who led our Bible study said, “In my opinion, if a person chooses to go to hell, they do so screaming and kicking against God the whole way.” I agree with him. Not only is heaven a welcoming place, but a place that God goes out of His way to bring us into.

It is all going to depend on the way we see God.

I do not agree that hell is here on earth. Hell is eternal separation from God, and I do not believe that anyone in this world is separated from God unless they choose to be, And even then have until they take their last day to accept God and be united to him.

I think we are in agreement about choice. People who are struggling with addiction are not realizing the kingdom. It is hell. There are other examples.

I am taught they I can never understand the nor imagine the mercy of God, for I am only human. A human mind can never even begin to understand the divine.

What we can understand is that God’s mercy is much greater than out own.

Also although off thread, I will make this quick. My proof of the Blessed Mother is in the bible. A great sign appeared IN THE SKY. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a own of twelve stars.

That is proof of the Blessed Mothers assumption in heaven. It continues to say how she gave birth to a son destined to rule all nations, and he child was caught up to God and his throne. That’s the Blessed Mother and Jesus. But lets not continue this, if you have any other questions of this feel free to make another post.

Yes, I am not at all contesting the Assumption of Mary. I was saying that Mary, like Jesus probably also forgave the crowd at the foot of the cross.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello OneSheep.
What about my Fatima example further up the thread? Mary showed the three children Hell and told them that is where the souls of the damned are in torment forever. Does she qualify as speaking on behalf of the Church? Hell is real. The three children saw it. The Mother of God said it is where the damned go. Now, if Mary is qualified in your book to speak on behalf of the Church, would you say the Church has said someone is in Hell?

To refresh your memory:

The first secret was a vision of hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir as follows:
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Now, for the other thing I pointed out above, choosing Hell. Have you read the news lately coming from Oklahoma and the Satanist sect renting a hall to show off their santanic black mass stuff? They choose Hell every day of the week and obviously are proud enough of it to want to show off at a public place in Oklahoma. Don’t think too hard about this OneSheep, but haven’t they knowingly chosen Hell?

Glenda

Although the RCC has respect for the revelations at Fatima, the Church does not hold us to acknowledging them as truths.

Satanists do not know who God is. They are rejecting a false image.

Hello OneSheep.

The revelation of God to His Church is complete. Nothing more will be added to it nor will anything of it be taken away. Science has nothing to reveal to the Church. Doctrine is doctrine and the shrink and the nero aren’t going to assist us in anyway to know God one bit better. If fact, most of them would agree that revelation is way out of their respective fields and our doctrines need no assistance from them. Another of your Boo-boos OneSheep. You have plenty don’t you?

Glenda

P.S. Keep the prayers comin’ Looks like more surgery for me. UGH!!! I hate stiches. They itch but you can’t scratch.

I will keep praying.

St. Thomas Aquinas said that revelation comes from scripture and from creation. I am not making this up.

Revelation unfolds, it has in our history.

God Bless! Get well!

 

[Aloysium]

You wrote, “Conversely, we can become sin itself.”

I believe that is what the bible said about Jesus, “He Who did not sin, became sin for us”, God DESTROYED the power of sin by God’s work on the cross, kind of a shame that not many believe it and a much bigger shame that many seem to wish it were not so and I am speaking of “believers” here.

You also wrote, “At any rate, hopefully you do fear the Lord. It is a grace of the Holy Spirit and it is good to do so; it means one is in touch with reality. There is absolutely nothing else to fear - this world is transient and sin has been vanquished”.

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God, it has to do with “reverence and awe”, not fear.

And as far as, “sin has been vanquished”, if “sin has been vanquished”, as you wrote, then why do so many think that sin has so much power still?

Jesus became sin and pays the price for it. Clearly, He does so lovingly so that you and I might be saved. I know you are trying to make some point of universal salvation, but in doing so, there appears not one ounce of regret in what you write that He takes on your sins. We deserve to be in hell; at the very least, this world of suffering.

All sin has been vanquished, it has no power. It is all up to you and me where we end up. And, I do not believe scripture tells us that regardless of whether we choose God or Satan, the end result is the same.

We are at God’s mercy. Knowing one’s own inclination to sin, how can one not fear. There is absolutely nothing, nothing else to fear. What one fears ultimately comes down to God’s will. That’s how I am seeing it.

So many think that sin has power because they are cowards and unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[OneSheep]

No. I can’t understand the struggle. God gave us the power to choose. Many choose not to love God. To reject Him is to choose hell. The only way I can understand a struggle, is if you’re a convert let’s say that’s struggling with Mary…but to struggle with the existence of hell? No, I don’t get it. I think to deny it is to deny Church Authority, or worse…to deny Jesus Himself who warned over and over about the reality and pains of hell. And nowhere…nowhere, do I ever recall Him saying "but don’t worry too much over it…for it’s only temporary!

Okay, let me try to help you understand. People who choose to reject God do so in ignorance, as they did when they crucified Him. So, would an unconditionally forgiving God allow a person to choose against Him without those so choosing clear about their choice? No, not God as I know Him. Would a person make such a choice for eternity in hell if they knew they were rejecting God, and understood who God is? No, not as I know man.

Yep, that’s what your hearing. I trust my Church and all that she teaches. Who the heck am I to challenge ***His ***Church that has 2000+ years of teaching behind it. And if I can challenge her teachings on hell, why can’t I also challenge her teachings on Mary, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, or the Real Presence? The fact of the matter is, is that many Catholics do challenge her. Just look at the divisions that are already dividing the faithful. It’s a real predicament the Church finds herself in today, with so many dissenting Catholics. Many Catholics refuse to go to confession, saying they rather confess their sins straight to Jesus, rather than another human being. It’s been said that only 1 in 3 Catholics believe in the Real Presence. And Mary? My poor innocent Mother has taken a thrashing on some of the threads I’ve seen on here! I refuse to go along with this herd mentality of “catholics” today, who “pick and choose” what they will or will not believe. I fully accept everything that Holy Mother Church teaches…and yes, unconditionally…as all Catholics should!

Peace, Mark

I respect your wishes. People mean no harm, Mark. Catholics who challenge doctrine probably still wish to remain Catholic and probably love their Church, but they see things a bit differently.

Division is a very important issue. To me, what is important is "Do I love and include these members of the family, am I in communion with them? This is what we are to ask ourselves as we approach the altar. There is a spectrum of opinion and view of God in the Church, but we can all come to the table together and worship the same Father, even though some of us are more ignorant than others, right?

There is no reason why individual views of God should be divisive. I include you in my idea of Church, even though I see contradictions in doctrine, and you do not. Do you include me?

 

[rinnie]

Okay, let me try to help you understand. People who choose to reject God do so in ignorance, as they did when they crucified Him. So, would an unconditionally forgiving God allow a person to choose against Him without those so choosing clear about their choice? No, not God as I know Him. Would a person make such a choice for eternity in hell if they knew they were rejecting God, and understood who God is? No, not as I know man.

I respect your wishes. People mean no harm, Mark. Catholics who challenge doctrine probably still wish to remain Catholic and probably love their Church, but they see things a bit differently.

Division is a very important issue. To me, what is important is "Do I love and include these members of the family, am I in communion with them? This is what we are to ask ourselves as we approach the altar. There is a spectrum of opinion and view of God in the Church, but we can all come to the table together and worship the same Father, even though some of us are more ignorant than others, right?

There is no reason why individual views of God should be divisive. I include you in my idea of Church, even though I see contradictions in doctrine, and you do not. Do you include me?

But the problem is what you seem to be saying is everyone must choose God, or they do not know what they are doing. Which brings on a big problem, no free will.

Here is where a bigger problem comes in, Please no disrespect okay?

The Church has the gift to interpret scripture. No human outside of the Church can do this. The Church as the gift of the Holy Spirit to do so. So to some it appears you are saying the Church is wrong, when you challenge the teaching, and that means the Holy Spirit is wrong, and you are right. Do you see what people are trying to say to you.

Bottom line my love, you don’t as a Catholic always have to understand all the teaching of the Church, just obey.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, let me try to help you understand. People who choose to reject God do so in ignorance, as they did when they crucified Him. So, would an unconditionally forgiving God allow a person to choose against Him without those so choosing clear about their choice? No, not God as I know Him. Would a person make such a choice for eternity in hell if they knew they were rejecting God, and understood who God is? No, not as I know man.

I respect your wishes. People mean no harm, Mark. Catholics who challenge doctrine probably still wish to remain Catholic and probably love their Church, but they see things a bit differently.

Division is a very important issue. To me, what is important is "Do I love and include these members of the family, am I in communion with them? This is what we are to ask ourselves as we approach the altar. There is a spectrum of opinion and view of God in the Church, but we can all come to the table together and worship the same Father, even though some of us are more ignorant than others, right?

There is no reason why individual views of God should be divisive. I include you in my idea of Church, even though I see contradictions in doctrine, and you do not. Do you include me?

That’s the problem when you say the Church contradicts in doctrine, you say the Holy Spirit divides. This is impossible.

WE believe as Catholics that Jesus meant what he said when he said that the Advocate the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. Your saying the Holy Spirit leads into contradictions means Jesus lied.

And unfortunately the bible itself proves you wrong. It states not all humans have this gift, it is given to the Church and the Pope and Bishops. All people have different gifts and none of us have the gift of the HS to define scripture. If of course you go by the word of God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

Are you going to mention all of the "ALL"s you find in Scripture and Tradition and claim they support your notion of Universal Salvation? Really.

You’re developing and “until” mentality and argument. What is that? Well, the Protestants use Scripture to refute the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by pointing to the word “until” in a particular passage, Matthew 1:25 “He had no relations with her **until **she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.” They say this means that after she gave birth, there followed regular marital relations because of the simply logic that appears to be there. But we as Catholics know better, don’t we? Your use of the word “all” seems to be to be being used in a similar fashion.

Now, Tom don’t get upset. These are just my opinions and I’m no expert on anything but chocolate rugelach (רוגעלך) and coffee which I cannot have till I get back form Church this morning.

Glenda

You wrote, "Are you going to mention all of the “ALL"s you find in Scripture and Tradition and claim they support your notion of Universal Salvation? Really.”

My post was concerning two prayers and they were:

“My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you.”

and

“O my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need”

As far as I know neither prayer is in Scripture or Tradition and they are, as far as I know, relatively recent prayers, any comments concerning the very straightforward and simple words of either or both prayers?

As it is written: “They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear”.

Ever heard of Spiritual Virginity?

As far as I know, I would say that the Church considers two woman to have been “Spriitual Virgins” in the history of mankind and one of those lost hers, do you know who these two are?

 

[Rodb]

Glendab: You have a point about all, but does it account for all the alls in scripture. (Parse that sentence!)

Genesis 12:3 — All peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham.
Genesis 22:18 — All nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring.
Psalms 22:27 — All the ends of the earth and all the families of the nations will acknowledge God.
Psalms 65:2 — All men will come to God.
Psalms 86:9 — All nations will worship and glorify God.
Psalms 103:8-9 — God is compassionate, will not always accuse and will not be angry forever.
Psalms 145:9-10 — The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.
Psalms 145:13 — The Lord loves all His creation.
Psalms 145:14 — The Lord upholds all who fall.
Isaiah 25:6-8 — God will prepare a feast for all people, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers up all nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from all faces and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth.
Isaiah 45:22-23 — God has sworn an oath that every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him.
Isaiah 49:6 — God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 54:8 — Although God will hide His face in a surge of anger, He will also have compassion with everlasting kindness.
Isaiah 57:16-18 — God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him.
Jeremiah 31:33-34 — All men will know God, from the greatest to the least.
Lamentations 3:31-33 — The Lord does not cast off forever. Although He brings grief, he will also be compassionate.
Ezekiah 18:21 — God does not any pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rather, He is pleased when they repent.
Micah 7:18 — God does not stay angry forever.
Matthew 18:13 — Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost.
Luke 2:10 — The birth of Jesus is good news for all the people.
Luke 3: 5, 6 — John the Baptist quotes Isaiah’s words that all mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 1:29 — Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:35 — God sent Jesus to save the world.
John 4:42 — God has committed all things to Christ.
John 5:25 — Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and all who hear will live.
John 6:37 — Everything that God has given to Christ will come to him.
John 12:32 — When Jesus is lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to himself.
John 12:47 — Jesus came to save the world.
John 17:2 — God granted Christ authority over all people so that Christ may give eternal life to all that God has given him.
Acts 3:20-21 — Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything.
Romans 3:3-4 — The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness.
Romans 5:18 — The act of obedience of one man (Jesus) will bring life for all men.
Romans 8:19-21 — Creation itself will be liberated and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Romans 8:38-39 — Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.
Romans 11:32 — God made all people imprisoned by disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 — All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.
2 Corinthians 5:15 — Christ died for all.
2 Corinthians 5:19 — Through Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself.
Ephesians 1:11 — God will bring all things under heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesians 4:10 — Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole universe.
Philippians. 2:9-11 — Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit)
Colossians 1: 19-20 — God was pleased to reconcile to Himself, all things on earth and in heaven through the blood of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 — God wants all men to be saved and to know the truth. Can God’s desire be thwarted?
1 Timothy 4:10 — God is the Saviour of all men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe.
Titus 2:11-12 — God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Hebrews 2:9 — Jesus tasted death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 — Christ is the atoning sacrifice of the sins of the whole world.
1 John 3:8 — Christ appeared to destroy the devil’s works. The doctrine of eternal damnation denies the victory of Christ!
1 John 4:14 — Christ is the Saviour of the world.
Revelations 5:13 — Every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ).
Revelations 21:4-5 — God will dwell with men and he will wipe every tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new.

Read more: city-data.com/forum/christianity/1300999-nice-compendium-all-verses-supporting-universal.html#ixzz3B4KV0TvP

 

[arte]

hello Arte.
Congratulations - you know of several people, who may actually go to Hell because they deny its existence. Heresy is to deny some essential belief of the Church and if one persists in it until death, then one will receive the proper reward for that denial. Glenda

Many thanks for pointing this out. I have checked on heresy in our Church and my disbelief in Hell may well be heresy. I will see a priest from another parish because my parish priest has shown by the book he lent me that he does not believe in hell. I will also see my parish priest and inform him that my (and his) disbelief in hell may be heresy. I will try but I doubt if it will change my mind about my disbelief in hell. The only judge is God and I am CERTAIN that my disbelief in hell is the truth.

As for your second comment regarding missing Mass on Sundays, guess what? It still is a mortal sin.

Many thanks again. I checked that as well and was surprised to see that it still is a mortal sin unless you have a very good reason for not going such as illness etc. We have had 4 changes of parish priest since my return to the Church so that particular priest has long gone. I actually told him that I wasn’t concerned about missing mass because I now loved every second of being at mass. It had become the highlight of my week to be amongst fellow Catholics – “I had returned home”. Going to mass is not an obligation – it’s a privilege.

In the beginning of your comments to tdgesq, you said you only have ONE beef with the Church, but from looking at your posts here an elsewhere, I can see that there really are more holes in your understanding and beliefs than you are aware of.

The only “beef” I have with the Church is hell and certain things related to hell which I will cover later or in another post. Can you please explain the “holes” in my understanding and beliefs that you have seen in my other posts.

.When we lose one part of our faith, many other parts follow. You can’t just pick and chose what you will or will not accept. You either accept all of it or none of it. Most who try to weave there own understanding into a cloth that holds wine find that both the wine and their skins are ruined.

Atheists say that you cannot “cherry pick”. You either accept all of it or none of it. I disagree but I am wary of the fact that you may be correct in that many other parts may follow. When I returned to the Church in 2004, we were informed by our female instructor that lay people were now having more say in the Church’s laws and one area was the use of birth control pills by married couples. I have just checked and I believe it is still against our Church’s teaching? If it is, I wonder how many married practising Catholic women take birth control pills?

QUOTE=glendab;12265649]Hello Arte.

One other thing I’d like to say, about that sausage on a roll. The mortality of the sin wasn’t in the meat, it was in the act of disobedience to the Church’s disciplines that made the sin mortal. Keep in mind wiser men then either you or I have said more than once that disobedience was the primary sin of the fallen angels and turned them into devils.

Glenda

I also checked on this and you are perfectly correct. The mortal sin would be for knowingly breaking a Church law (discipline). Although, in my case, it likely didn’t apply but Brother Luke was right in sending me to the priest… During my research on this topic, I ended up on another thread in this forum concerning eating meat on a Friday causing a mortal sin which could lead to a soul going to hell. Some posts are asking if it is fair justice for a person who died with this mortal sin on their soul when the Church later changed the ruling to only Fridays in Lent? I guess the set answer is that it was a Church law when they committed the act.

I have to sort out an old post in reply to Amandil and then I would like to précis some of the replies on this forum concerning my disbelief in hell.