Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Vico]

…

Rom. 9:27 And Isaias crieth out concerning Israel: *If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

Haydock Commentary: Ver. 24. &c. Whom also he hath called, &c. That is, he hath called some of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles, to be vessels of election, as he foretold by his prophet Osee, (ii. 24.) I will call them my people, that were not my people,…and I will make them the children of the living God. And as it was also foretold by the prophet Isaias, of all the numerous nation of the Jews, only a remnant shall be saved, by their obstinacy in not receiving, and refusing to believe in, their Messias. For finishing his word, and reducing it by his justice to a little, because the Lord will bring to pass his word reducing it to a small compass upon the earth. The sense and construction of this verse is equally obscure in the Greek and in the Latin text: the true sense seems to be, that finishing his word, or fulfilling his promises to Israel, those that are to be saved, will be reduced by his justice for their sins, to a few; because, though he bring to pass his word, and his promises, the saved among the Israelites will be reduced to a small compass, in comparison of the great number of the Gentiles. This exposition agrees with the rest of the text, and with what follows, and was foretold by Isaias, (chap. i. 9.) that unless the God of Sabaoth (of hosts) had, through his mercy, left them a seed, a small number, they would all in a manner have deserved to be utterly destroyed, like Sodom and Gomorrha. (Witham) — What I say, shall come to pass, that in those places, viz. Greece, Italy, &c. where those who are strangers to the worship of the true God dwell, and have been called, on account of their profane worship, not my people. In those very places, they shall receive the true worship of God, and by this means shall become and be called the children of the living God. He is so particular as to place, lest the Jews should imagine that the Gentiles would be converted like their former proselytes, and either dwell in Judea, or repair to it at certain stated times. Thus the apostle repeats what Jesus Christ had before said to the Samaritan woman. The hour will come when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you adore the Father. (Estius) (John iv.) — A remnant. That is, a small number only of the children of Israel shall be converted and saved. How perversely is this text quoted for the salvation of men of all religions, when it speaks only of the converts of the children of Israel. (Challoner) — St. Paul is here speaking of the reprobation of the Jews, and of the vocation of the Gentiles, and foretells that a remnant, or small number of the children of Israel shall be converted, and saved. In the sense of St. Paul, we sincerely hope, and confidently trust, that a remnant of all will be saved through a timely conversion. But we no where read, in the Old, or New Scriptures, that a remnant of all will be saved, as if it were a matter of indifference to what society or connexion a Christian was joined. (Haydock)

Matt. 7 13 *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who enter by it. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, which leadeth to life: and few there are who find it!

Haydock Commentary: Ver. 13. Enter ye in at the narrow gate, &c. The doctrine of these two verses needs no commentary, but deserve serious attention. (Witham)

Luke 13 23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 *Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

Haydock Commentary:Ver. 24. Shall seek, &c. Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and not being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it. (Challoner) — Our Lord answers here in the affirmative: viz. that the number of those who are saved, is very small, for a few only can enter by the narrow gate. Therefore does he say, according to St. Matthew, (Chap. vii.) Narrow is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that enter therein. This does not contradict what is said in the 8th chapter of St. Matthew: That many shall come from the east, and sit down in the kingdom of God; for many indeed shall join the blessed company of the angels, but when considered with the number of the slain, they will appear but few. (St. Augustine, serm. xxxii. de Verb. Dei.)

 

[bisco]

can anyone comment on catherine of sienna’s vision of hell as sent to her by divine revelation?

 

[glendab]

Hello Estel.

However,* eternal punishment may have an end*, and I personally am hopeful of this. And this hope is based large part in God being loving and merciful, and numerous scriptures that support this and* a time of universal restoration*.

You can believe anything you want, but what you are stating is heresy. You can find Scriptures to support your heresy, that is nothing new. Many have before you and many will after you. But the fact you say you are Catholic says you have agreed to certain things and have sworn to God each time you’ve said the Creed publically in Church on Sunday that you do believe it the way the Church teaches it whether you are aware of or not, that is what you are doing when you recite the Nicene Creed with the rest of us. It becomes binding upon you. You give you assent to all the Church believes and teaches when you do so. But then you come here and say you don’t. You can’t have it both ways. If you are hoping falsely, I might add, on some way out of Hell’s eternity, then you need to look deeply into what you really believe.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Estel.

Fear of hell fire is not why we are bound to do good or avoid evil. “Perfect love drives out fear”, writes Saint John in scripture. Jesus, perfect in love, did not come to condemn the world. In love Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Indeed, much is to be lost by the sinner who ends up in hell. However, all might not be lost. And, the church does want us to hope for that, and here it is, stated accordingly:

CCC

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved.’

The PERSEVERENCE that your quotation of the CCC is referring to is in FAITH. That means holding to the Truth, no matter what, till the end, NOT holding to one’s own interpretation of the Truth till the end. BIG difference. Nice try though. To do His will means to keep the faith in season and out of season, ALL OF IT, whole and entire, not just the parts you personally agree with and can accept.

Glenda

 

[bisco]

and if you slip, confess, beg his mercy, know that you are forgiven and move forward.

 

[Estel]

Hello Estel.

You can believe anything you want, but what you are stating is heresy. You can find Scriptures to support your heresy, that is nothing new. Many have before you and many will after you. But the fact you say you are Catholic says you have agreed to certain things and have sworn to God each time you’ve said the Creed publically in Church on Sunday that you do believe it the way the Church teaches it whether you are aware of or not, that is what you are doing when you recite the Nicene Creed with the rest of us. It becomes binding upon you. You give you assent to all the Church believes and teaches when you do so. But then you come here and say you don’t. You can’t have it both ways. If you are hoping falsely, I might add, on some way out of Hell’s eternity, then you need to look deeply into what you really believe.

Glenda

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

John Paul II

The creed states no where eternal hell, but rather in life everlasting. I am stating no heresy, just the hope that we are called to by our faith. It states in the catechism that we are called to hope and pray for all to be saved. There is nothing I am saying against what the church teaches. You however, have passed false judgement on me, without understanding or knowing the truth, and this is something you should look deeply into.

 

[Starrsmother]

The real question is NOT what CAN God do–He can do anything He wants. If he chose to empty hell of all its inhabitants and bring them all into to heaven, that is precisely what would occur. The real queston is what WILL He do–and I have never read anywhere that He planned on eliminating hell or bringing souls who have merited hell into heaven at any point. It’s a nice thought and all–but I’m sure not counting on it.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello Estel.

You can believe anything you want, but what you are stating is heresy…

Glenda, dear, just a gentle reminder that “heresy” is not to be used like so among lay people. “Heresy” is very tightly defined in our Church, and may be used only against incorrigible obstinance, etc. etc. by Church authorities. This is canon law. Estel was saying what he “hoped”; this is far, far, from obstinance. We can all hope that everyone who goes to hell has a way out. It is an attitude of love and forgiveness.

God’s peace be with you.

 

[thinkandmull]

Jesus said it would be “better for them to have a milestone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea”. “after death comes judgment”

 

[thinkandmull]

Yes, Father Barron states: “we may reasonably hope all people will be saved”. “Do we know it? No”. I agree with him. He also says hell is more of condition rather than a place, and the fire is metaphorical. This we can also hope for. John Paul the second also stated: “Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it”. (General Audience of July 28, 1999). Sounds like we can’t really be sure, but are free to hope for a happy ending supported by scripture and the fact God is most merciful.

Fr. Barron is wrong. The Epistle of Jude says there are people in hell

 

[thinkandmull]

And that Quote from John Paul II doesn’t say “whether” in the Latin, as Sungenis pointed out

 

[Vico]

If it were true that if God “cannot allow a soul to be sent to hell and punished for eternity” then we would not have free will.

On First Principles establishes Origen’s main doctrines, including the eventual restoration of all souls to a state of perfection in proximity to God. At the** fifth ecumenical council **condemned this belief of Origen in “the fabulous pre-existence of souls … the monstrous restoration which follows from it”.

Emperor Justinian issued his *Anathemas Against Origen (553 A.D.):

• I. Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (ἀπψυγείσας) and they had therefore become souls (ψυχάς) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema.
  …
  IX. If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema
  ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

 

[inocente]

“Live and let live,” is Satan’s perfect ad campaign.

Are you saying the Pope works for Satan?

*'In an interview published in part in the Argentine weekly “Viva” July 27, the pope listed his Top 10 tips for bringing greater joy to one’s life:

1. “Live and let live.” Everyone should be guided by this principle, he said, which has a similar expression in Rome with the saying, “Move forward and let others do the same.”

• catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403144.htm’*

(story also carried by many other newspapers and channels worldwide)

 

[simpleas]

Are you saying the Pope works for Satan?

*'In an interview published in part in the Argentine weekly “Viva” July 27, the pope listed his Top 10 tips for bringing greater joy to one’s life:

1. “Live and let live*.” Everyone should be guided by this principle, he said, which has a similar expression in Rome with the saying, “Move forward and let others do the same.”

• catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403144.htm’

(story also carried by many other newspapers and channels worldwide)

Thanks for sharing this, I love the popes top 10 tips for happiness, very much my views

 

[OneSheep]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does teach on this issue. You are thinking of the cases addressed in 1793. I don’t know what you mean by “fully knowledgeable”. The full knowledge necessary for mortal sin does not require knowledge of the gravity of the particular sin, only that is it not to be done because it is sinful. 1791 in particular addresses a free will rejection of God.
IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

No one has been able to come up with a case of such rejection in the “knowingly and willingly” thread on this forum. People do not do mortal sin when they are aware of the seriousness of the sin. If you tell me that God says ooflesnopping is a mortal sin, do I know the seriousness of the sin? Do I even think that God says so, do I believe it?

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Culpable. Have I taken the time to look up the sin of ooflesnopping? Do I know its seriousness? If you were God, what would this culpability look like? Would you condemn me to hell for ooflesnopping, or would you forgive? The human cannot escape his own projection of Abba when addressing such questions concerning culpability. Do I forgive everyone I hold something against, as Jesus asks? If so, why would God withhold forgiveness in cases that I would not? That would make me more forgiving than God. That does not compute.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

I find the language of “invincibility” very vague. In my observation, people sin because of blindness or ignorance. If I refuse to believe that ooflesnopping is a sin, and it is indeed a harmful act, my refusal is a matter of ignorance.

If I choose to remain ignorant about sins because I condemn all authority, then this would also be a matter of ignorance.

Now, if I saw the above attitude in someone else, (especially if I am the “authority” ) , I may feel a bit angry, but such anger would do little to turn the mind of the nonbeliever. What is called for is love. I would need to set the example of love and first “win over” the heart of ignorant person. Once the person trusts and believes in me, and sees the error of sin, he is much more “culpable”. However, once the person believes me and sees the error of the sin, will he sin? Not likely, but there are some of us who are so caught up in self-loathing that they do not care about their destiny, they think they “deserve” the worst. Such, again, is a matter of ignorance or blindness.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61​

I agree completely here, and the wording is not vague. The “correct conscience” prevails through love, experience, and wisdom, which wipe away ignorance.

The source of all charity is God. Would God be uncharitable toward any person of ignorance? No, not the God I know in my prayer life. Instead, hell is a choice on the part of the individual, and I have a feeling that Jesus has ways of showing us our error when we encounter Him face to face. Would God be so uncharitable that He would refuse a repenting soul from hell? It doesn’t make sense.

What does make sense is that when I am feeling really, really angry and frustrated about the sins of people in the world, and I want to get it all under control, I make the afterlife penalty as severe as possible, with no escape, so as to motivate people to behave. That is me talking when I am in a condemning mode. That is my voice of frustration with people’s defiance. That is the voice of my conscience, which says that all sin should be punished, and there is no excuse. However, there is a deeper voice, an unconditionally loving voice…

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks for sharing this, I love the popes top 10 tips for happiness, very much my views

Yes, thanks for sharing this! Did you see this one? I love it.

1. Don’t proselytize; respect others’ beliefs. “We can inspire others through witness so that one grows together in communicating. But the worst thing of all is religious proselytism, which paralyzes: ‘I am talking with you in order to persuade you,’ No. Each person dialogues, starting with his and her own identity. The church grows by attraction, not proselytizing,” the pope said.

Wow. “starting with his and her own identity”. Yes.

I would like to add a sentence to this one:

1. Stop being negative. “Needing to talk badly about others indicates low self-esteem. That means, ‘I feel so low that instead of picking myself up I have to cut others down,’” the pope said. “Letting go of negative things quickly is healthy.”

Such “letting go”, to me, involves forgiveness and reconciliation. I would add “forgive and reconcile with everyone you feel negatively toward.”

I love the Holy Father Pope Francis.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hey Tom, what’s your problem. Why are you asking me if i “ever thought” this or that?
Just make your point.
Look, Hell is mentioned some 50 times in the Bible.
The church says it exists.
Get over it and focus on love.

I know it exists.

As far as “Get over it and focus on love”, what do you think that I have been writing about?

God Is a Being of Love and in the Incarnation, God became One of us and took on ALL of EVERYONE’S sins, isn’t that what Jesus is supposed to have done?

It is even stated that Jesus became sin, doesn’t it?

If God’s Plan is not catholic than God’s Plan is not worth squat.

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

Glenda, dear, just a gentle reminder that “heresy” is not to be used like so among lay people. “Heresy” is very tightly defined in our Church, and may be used only against incorrigible obstinance, etc. etc. by Church authorities. This is canon law. Estel was saying what he “hoped”; this is far, far, from obstinance. We can all hope that everyone who goes to hell has a way out. It is an attitude of love and forgiveness.

God’s peace be with you.

Please show me where the word heresy is not supposed to be used by laypersons. You won’t find it any where and that is simply you placing a censure over my words. You’d like me and others to believe something that isn’t true. There is no censorship among laypersons of the word heresy. A spade is a spade and an apple cannot be confused with an orange. To refuse to believe what one is supposed to and to tell others to do the same is heretical. Where did you ever hear that only Church authorities are allowed to use the word? That is nonsense and also false teaching. Please find some citations for your supposed censorship rules. I personally will never hope that anyone who goes to Hell has a way out. That too is heresy. Seems like the shoes fit. Have a fine walk in them. It might be hot and smelly and painful at the end of that trail though. Good luck with that.

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

“Anything is possible with God”, so the answer to the thread topic is yes. However, will it happen? I think so. Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Francis De Sales both were quoted as saying the pains of hell could be lessened. In addition, it is written “No one is cast off by the Lord forever”. Also, it is written, in Revelation 21:4, that there will be no more pain. So, I’d say it is possible, and likely. Our concept of eternity just doesn’t make us sure about these things, but we can be free to hope.

Yes we can be free to hope.

Jesus taught us to pray, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, and as it is written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved…”.

One could even say that Jesus gave us a way to “pray our hope”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Why doesn’t God put Hell inside of time? That way Hell doesn’t have to be forever and change of heart is possible.

“Anything is possible with God”

Could be that hell is in “eternity” and God will do away with “eternity” when the Seventh Day gets here, on which God blest, rested and made holy.

Also something about “all tears” too, isn’t it?