Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

The problem isn’t that God’s plan isn’t Catholic.

It’s that there are people who refuse to become Catholic. And God won’t force them to become Catholic.

I didn’t write that “God’s plan isn’t Catholic”, I wrote, “If God’s Plan is not catholic than God’s Plan is not worth squat.”

And as far as “It’s that there are people who refuse to become Catholic.”

This is not even close to what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Amandil]

I didn’t writ “God’s plan isn’t Catholic”, I wrote, “If God’s Plan is not catholic than God’s Plan is not worth squat.”

And as far as “It’s that there are people who refuse to become Catholic.”

This is not even close to what the Catholic Church teaches.

I know what you wrote. What I did was called turning a phrase. Either way your correction is a distinction without any real difference.

FYI: the Church teaches “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is the Lain phrase. Of course its been qualified since V2, but the teaching is basically the same, IF anyone is saved, they are saved through the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

In any case the words of Christ contradict your views.

So it is what the Church teaches.

 

[Amandil]

Yes, we have some evidence that Jesus could be angry at people, and even condemning in tone. We have to remember that the Word came and became fully human, and it is human to get angry, condemn, and resent. And let’s be real, some of Jesus’ words against the Pharisees and others seemed downright unforgiving.

However, it is my sincere belief that Jesus forgave them, all of them in time, if not before, he chastised them. This belief is grounded in my own relationship with God, it is grounded in my prayer life, which means that it isn’t something to be argued or debated. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” is a starting point.

There will be plenty of people reading this who will agree, and disagree, with what I am stating here. And really, this is what this thread boils down to, Does God will to relent? And, Is hell an “eternal punishment” or is it a place of healing the misperceptions we have? When we forgive all those we hold something against, as Jesus asks us to do, then we can see that God the Father does no less. I cannot project a God who is less forgiving than I am, it makes no sense to me.

On the other hand, forgiveness takes time and prayer, and the Church must include those of us who have a lot of trouble forgiving others. Some of us cannot imagine sharing heaven with the likes of Hitler and other such sinners, and that is very understandable. So, let us break bread together, those of us who are struggling with forgiveness and see God as more wrathful, and those of us who do not. There is room at the table for everyone. Did those who gathered in front of Jesus who broke bread together, sharing the loaves and fishes, all forgive those they had held something against? I highly doubt it. But in the breaking of the bread, we are inspired to forgive. Are you following my thinking here?

I see Jesus as being kind and merciful to everyone, unless His anger was triggered, Amandil. But again, when our anger is triggered, the call is to forgive.

I really like these a lot. I hope you read them:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403144.htm

You’re not asking the right questions.

It’s not about whether you or I can imagine sharing heaven with "the likes"of Hitler.

It’s whether Hitler would want to share heaven with the likes of God? Or the Jews he massacred? Or anyone who refuses to call him “Fuerer”? Or anyone who has anything but blue eyes and blonde hair?

 

[bisco]

you have to be careful with media quotes from Pope Francis, they can really be quite loose with context.

 

[Estel]

Yes, we have some evidence that Jesus could be angry at people, and even condemning in tone. We have to remember that the Word came and became fully human, and it is human to get angry, condemn, and resent. And let’s be real, some of Jesus’ words against the Pharisees and others seemed downright unforgiving.

However, it is my sincere belief that Jesus forgave them, all of them in time, if not before, he chastised them. This belief is grounded in my own relationship with God, it is grounded in my prayer life, which means that it isn’t something to be argued or debated. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” is a starting point.

There will be plenty of people reading this who will agree, and disagree, with what I am stating here. And really, this is what this thread boils down to, Does God will to relent? And, Is hell an “eternal punishment” or is it a place of healing the misperceptions we have? When we forgive all those we hold something against, as Jesus asks us to do, then we can see that God the Father does no less. I cannot project a God who is less forgiving than I am, it makes no sense to me.

On the other hand, forgiveness takes time and prayer, and the Church must include those of us who have a lot of trouble forgiving others. Some of us cannot imagine sharing heaven with the likes of Hitler and other such sinners, and that is very understandable. So, let us break bread together, those of us who are struggling with forgiveness and see God as more wrathful, and those of us who do not. There is room at the table for everyone. Did those who gathered in front of Jesus who broke bread together, sharing the loaves and fishes, all forgive those they had held something against? I highly doubt it. But in the breaking of the bread, we are inspired to forgive. Are you following my thinking here?

I see Jesus as being kind and merciful to everyone, unless His anger was triggered, Amandil. But again, when our anger is triggered, the call is to forgive.

I really like these a lot. I hope you read them:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403144.htm

Good point, I agree that Jesus was merciful to all, and that he calls us all to that same mercy. There are numerous examples in scripture. The best example is that he was willing to show mercy by doing the will of His father and laying down His life for us all. He could have called upon legions of angels to defend himself and destroy his enemies, but he wouldn’t even let Peter do damage to the very men who were about to kill him. During his ministry, he rebuked the Pharisees in love and truth. Everyone on here seems to rebuke the same way, meaning well. Nobody loved everyone like Jesus loved. His love and mercy are for all.

 

[OneSheep]

You’re not asking the right questions.

It’s not about whether you or I can imagine sharing heaven with "the likes"of Hitler.

It’s whether Hitler would want to share heaven with the likes of God? Or the Jews he massacred? Or anyone who refuses to call him “Fuerer”? Or anyone who has anything but blue eyes and blonde hair?

Well, that would be Hitler’s business, though, wouldn’t it? We have no control over that.
What we do have control over is our own forgiveness of others. We can choose to forgive Hitler, if we hold something against him. I think it is fairly universal that people who love people will hold something against Hitler, Stalin, and many others who had little regard for the lives of their enemies. The call for me is to forgive and pray for my enemies, that Hitler come to see that our Lord Jesus, the goodness of Abba, is in all people. Do you see how such a prayer for the dead is transformative for the living?

Abba, Father, open the eyes of Adolf Hitler
Show him the love and goodness of our Jewish brethren
Show him the love and goodness of our disabled brethren
Show him the love and goodness of all persecuted, Catholics, communists, Roma, people of color, and people who defied him.
Show him your way, Father.
And then, when he sees, find a place for him in heaven.
And Father, give me the ability to forgive all people I hold something against.

Amen

 

[Amandil]

Well, that would be Hitler’s business, though, wouldn’t it? We have no control over that.
What we do have control over is our own forgiveness of others. We can choose to forgive Hitler, if we hold something against him. I think it is fairly universal that people who love people will hold something against Hitler, Stalin, and many others who had little regard for the lives of their enemies. The call for me is to forgive and pray for my enemies, that Hitler come to see that our Lord Jesus, the goodness of Abba, is in all people. Do you see how such a prayer for the dead is transformative for the living?

Abba, Father, open the eyes of Adolf Hitler
Show him the love and goodness of our Jewish brethren
Show him the love and goodness of our disabled brethren
Show him the love and goodness of all persecuted, Catholics, communists, Roma, people of color, and people who defied him.
Show him your way, Father.
And then, when he sees, find a place for him in heaven.
And Father, give me the ability to forgive all people I hold something against.

Amen

Prayer for the dead in purgatory is beneficial.

Prayer for the reprobate in hell is pointless.

 

[glendab]

Hello OneSheep.

… I request that you not use it against me or anyone else. If you don’t agree with what someone says, that’s okay, but to call it “heresy” is a condemnation… I forgive you for using it, but my request is still there… I know that you consider yourself obedient, but when I suggest that you to ask a priest about this stuff, you seem to shrug it off… I’m not talking about compromising beliefs, I am talking about seeing the Love within all that transcends words and doctrines.

Heresy. A fine word used to describe that which is against all that Jesus Christ said, did and through His Holy Spirit still does. The Church has formal definitions for it. It is used by many. Your request that I not use it is out of bounds for you. Why do you feel a compulsion to try and edit my words or censor them? As you say, if you don’t agree with me that a statement is heretical, why not just ignore what I say and move on? Why do you feel that I should be censored here at CAF? If this were your webpage, you could list a bunch of words that folks would be forbidden to use, words like ice cream and tadpoles and hell, etc. And since you were in charge of your own webpage, you could limit things is such a way. But it really isn’t appropriate to attempt to censor me here, not at all.

 

[simpleas]

Joan of Arc was seen as a heretic in times past. She is now a saint.

It’s possible many believed she would burn in hell for all eternity, seems she is in heaven!

 

[Tom_Baum]

I know what you wrote. What I did was called turning a phrase. Either way your correction is a distinction without any real difference.

FYI: the Church teaches “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is the Lain phrase. Of course its been qualified since V2, but the teaching is basically the same, IF anyone is saved, they are saved through the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

In any case the words of Christ contradict your views.

So it is what the Church teaches.

The Church does NOT teach that one must be an “official member” of the Church for salvation, does it?

Which is what it seemed that you said when you wrote, “It’s that there are people who refuse to become Catholic”.

And as far as "FYI: the Church teaches “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”, just what is “Outside the Church”?

Could be that nothing is outside the Church.

Also, concerning “IF anyone is saved, they are saved through the Church, which is the Body of Christ”, didn’t this kind of kick into gear by what Jesus did in the Incarnation?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You’re not asking the right questions.

It’s not about whether you or I can imagine sharing heaven with "the likes"of Hitler.

It’s whether Hitler would want to share heaven with the likes of God? Or the Jews he massacred? Or anyone who refuses to call him “Fuerer”? Or anyone who has anything but blue eyes and blonde hair?

Who knows, maybe even God might have a say in this!

 

[Tom_Baum]

Joan of Arc was seen as a heretic in times past. She is now a saint.

It’s possible many believed she would burn in hell for all eternity, seems she is in heaven!

Quite a few of those that we are encouraged to look up to, not just Joan of Arc, were, to put it mildly, treated rather shabbily when they were still breathers.

 

[Amandil]

Who knows, maybe even God might have a say in this!

There is no “might,” God does have a say in this.

He says, “If you will not have it My way, then have it your way.”

Every person who winds up in hell all sing the same tune:

“I Did It My Way!”

 

[Estel]

Ok, so I feel bad about one particular comment that I made that was over defensive and with misplaced zeal, and I guess it caused a bit of an argument. I’m sorry. And I also do appreciate the defense I received about my view point. I appreciate that very much. (Perhaps I am just over sensitive about these things, but I felt like typing that anyway). I apologize for putting my own interests first and being angry without good cause. Thank you.

Getting back to the topic, I would still hold that it is possible for God to relent, since anything is possible with God. I found this, which expresses a type of lessening of punishment that can be possible.

" (a) There is a certain mitigation of the pains of Hell that a Catholic may allow.

First there is the so-called mitigation taught by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Sales.

St Thomas says: “In the damnation of the lost, there is evidence of mercy, not indeed by way of total relaxation, but by way of partial alleviation, in so far as the punishment is less than is deserved” (Sum. Theol. Ia. q. 21, art. 4, ad. 1).

According to St. Francis de Sales: “these sufferings are much less than the sins and crimes for which they are inflicted” (Treatise of the Love of God, bk. IX, ch. I).

St. Thomas is of opinion that God will accord this alleviation of their torments to those especially who during life were themselves merciful to others (Suppl. q. 99, art. 5, ad. 1).

(b) Some theologians, following Duns Scotus, hold that venial sins, and mortal sins of which the guilt has been forgiven, will not be punished in Hell forever, because of themselves they are not deserving of eternal punishment.

Hence a day will come when, the temporal punishment due to be undergone for these sins having been completed, the damned will experience a mitiga*tion of their sufferings, proportionate to the gravity of those sins for which they were condemned to suffer for a time. However improbable this opinion may seem to be, it may be held without offence to the faith, for it does not imply any mitigation of the sufferings inflicted for those sins which, of themselves, are deserving of eternal punishment."

I would take it a step further, saying that even the worst sin is not infinite, (but still it is based on God’s mercy alone that) therefore I hope there will come a time where the pains of hell will cease. I base this off scripture that supports it ( which cannot be broken), Catholic teaching that leaves such things about “eternity” somewhat ambiguous, and the fact God will never stop loving. But, who the hell knows all about hell, except God himself.

 

[OneSheep]

Heresy. A fine word used to describe that which is against all that Jesus Christ said, did and through His Holy Spirit still does. The Church has formal definitions for it. It is used by many. Your request that I not use it is out of bounds for you. Why do you feel a compulsion to try and edit my words or censor them? As you say, if you don’t agree with me that a statement is heretical, why not just ignore what I say and move on? Why do you feel that I should be censored here at CAF? If this were your webpage, you could list a bunch of words that folks would be forbidden to use, words like ice cream and tadpoles and hell, etc. And since you were in charge of your own webpage, you could limit things is such a way. But it really isn’t appropriate to attempt to censor me here, not at all.

I caught your “permission” to disagree with folks here, that was most generous of you. And your appeal to my obedience is nice, however, I am not bound in anyway to obey you, OneSheep and why you think I should be is totally inappropriate. **You are not my Superior in any way shape or form. Why does your mind intrude into my boundaries in such a way? There is a problem there. **

As for Love transcending all doctrines, that is heresy. Love gave us Ten Commandments to live by and His Sacred Heart longs for all men to obey Him in all things. He gave us Doctrine that is Eternal. I suggest you transcend your own angst over seeing the word heresy in my posts or simply stop reading them.

Glenda

I’m sorry, Glenda. I made a request. I have no interest in censoring your words, and in terms of “obedience” I was not referring to myself either, I apologize for not being clear on that, nor did I claim to be your superior in any way. My request is simply a request. You can say yes, or you can say no. If you do not want to comply to my request, that is fine, I won’t hold it against you. I have a need for respect, and when I see disrespect for others, too, by use of the word “heresy”, I feel upset. The “upset” is not your problem, it is mine. I am asking for your respect, and that would mean not using the word “heresy” when referring to my words or anyone else’. If it gives you joy to comply, then comply. If it does not, then feel free to say “no”.

Did you hear the news today about the ISA fighters having surrounded, and were in the process of slaughtering, the “heretics”? Do you really see the word as reflecting a loving, merciful God?

Hmmm. Love transcending all doctrines is a heresy? On what basis?

And I am still waiting for your answer to the question, “Why would you never hope for anyone in hell to have a way out?”

I think the answer is very, very pertinent to this thread! Give it a shot, Glenda!

 

[OneSheep]

Prayer for the dead in purgatory is beneficial.

Prayer for the reprobate in hell is pointless.

More great material for the topic, though a bit of a side issue. Does God condemn anyone, or is hell a choice?

Did I tell you what the priest told us? In his opinion, the only way a person goes to hell is if they go screaming and kicking against God the whole way. This is also the God I know, in my prayer life. You know God differently, I am thinking, and that is the explanation for the difference of viewpoint. To me, there is plenty of room in the Church for both views!

So, to me, it would not be pointless. With God, all is possible, a loving possible!. To you, I am hearing, it would be pointless. I get it, I understand. Of course, if God condemns, then it would be pointless. Unless, of course, you wanted the person to be in heaven and think that prayer might help.

To me, my conscience condemns, but God, underlying the conscience, does not.

(Glenda, if you are reading, turn away).

My conscience “loves” conditionally, while God as I know Him loves unconditionally.

 

[Starrsmother]

I’m sorry, Glenda. I made a request. I have no interest in censoring your words, and in terms of “obedience” I was not referring to myself either, I apologize for not being clear on that, nor did I claim to be your superior in any way. My request is simply a request. You can say yes, or you can say no. If you do not want to comply to my request, that is fine, I won’t hold it against you. I have a need for respect, and when I see disrespect for others, too, by use of the word “heresy”, I feel upset. The “upset” is not your problem, it is mine. I am asking for your respect, and that would mean not using the word “heresy” when referring to my words or anyone else’. If it gives you joy to comply, then comply. If it does not, then feel free to say “no”.

Did you hear the news today about the ISA fighters having surrounded, and were in the process of slaughtering, the “heretics”? Do you really see the word as reflecting a loving, merciful God?

Hmmm. Love transcending all doctrines is a heresy? On what basis?

And I am still waiting for your answer to the question, “Why would you never hope for anyone in hell to have a way out?”

I think the answer is very, very pertinent to this thread! Give it a shot, Glenda!

I hope I’m not barging into something that I am going to be sorry I did, but here goes. First of all, Jesus spoke of hell existing so I would say it would be heresy to deny it exists. Everything else about it though is just each individual person’s best guess. Jesus never said that it lasted forever, nor did He say it didn’t. We don’t know if at death everyone is given a final moment to repent or not. We can hope so, but that’s all. We really don’t even know exactly what hell is, what the suffering is composed of or anything else. If Pope Francis himself wrote a book on hell, it might be good reading, but it would still just be his personal opinion. I just know this: I hope to never find out what hell is first hand.

 

[hasantas]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.

LOVE!

According to İslam:

There are two kinds of people in Hell. One of them is faithful peoples but those commited sins so they must pay for their sins in Hell ofcourse if God does not forgive them. After paying they will go Heavens.

The second group who will stay in Hell eternaly are who reject God. These people will stay in Hell eternally because of rejection of God. They will suffer for their sins. They will never get out off Hell. There are some Hadiths mean that after suffering for sins they will become familiar and relent with fire punisment. But yet they will never break off Hell.

 

[Amandil]

More great material for the topic, though a bit of a side issue. Does God condemn anyone, or is hell a choice?

God’s judgment is the affirmation of your choice.

OneSheep:

Did I tell you what the priest told us? In his opinion, the only way a person goes to hell is if they go screaming and kicking against God the whole way. This is also the God I know, in my prayer life. You know God differently, I am thinking, and that is the explanation for the difference of viewpoint. To me, there is plenty of room in the Church for both views!

With all due respect to your priest that opinion is not held universally, nor is it taught by the Church.

I know several priests who have told me that go into eternity precisely how they lived in life.

OneSheep:

So, to me, it would not be pointless. With God, all is possible, a loving possible!.

(Sigh)…You apparently have not read Dante, or Milton.

OneSheep:

To you, I am hearing, it would be pointless. I get it, I understand. Of course, if God condemns, then it would be pointless. Unless, of course, you wanted the person to be in heaven and think that prayer might help.

You still don’t understand. Those in hell do not want to be in heaven. They don’t want God’s love, they don’t want God’s rule, they don’t want God’s world. They want their love, their rule, their world, and that alone.

God demands that they set it aside, so to them God is a “tyrant”, “unmerciful”, and “unforgiveable”.

Thus as your priest says, “they are better off”.

OneSheep:

To me, my conscience condemns, but God, underlying the conscience, does not.

(Glenda, if you are reading, turn away).

My conscience “loves” conditionally, while God as I know Him loves unconditionally.

God loves unconditionally. Salvation is in fact conditional. If salvation was “unconditional”, it would mean that God forces heaven on those who don’t want it, and that is by definition not loving. Love must be freely accepted as well as freely given, otherwise it’s not love.

 

[OneSheep]

God’s judgment is the affirmation of your choice.

Okay. So, if a person chooses in ignorance, does God simply say, “well, its his problem, he didn’t know, but he should have known.”? The answer to that question is based in relationship and experience of God.

With all due respect to your priest that opinion is not held universally, nor is it taught by the Church.

I know several priests who have told me that go into eternity precisely how they lived in life.

All opinions. None “taught” by the Church, but all acceptable and all based on individual relationships with Abba.

(Sigh)…You apparently have not read Dante, or Milton.

Those writings are opinions also, based on individual perceptions of/relationships with the divine. Plenty of room for everyone!

You still don’t understand. Those in hell do not want to be in heaven. They don’t want God’s love, they don’t want God’s rule, they don’t want God’s world. They want their love, their rule, their world, and that alone.

Those statements of want are statements in ignorance, are they not? Or, blindness can be a factor. Desire blinds us. Blindness is generally not voluntary. When a person actually wants to be blind, they do so in ignorance, right?

God demands that they set it aside, so to them God is a “tyrant”, “unmerciful”, and “unforgiveable”.

For the aware person, no demand is necessary. When God is seen as the source of Love and all that is, even the things that they “want”, then the human response is gratitude. Does God do all He can to make a person aware? In this life, everything is “cloudy” as so many say. Setting aside those wants is the means to freedom, freedom from the slavery of our own nature. It takes awareness to learn this, and many of us have to go through the school-of-hard-knocks to learn this, right? We are that dumb. I am that dumb. Some things I have to learn the hard way. So, a person who does not have enough life to learn the hard way, does God say, “tough luck”? Again, the answer to that would be a matter of opinion/relationship.

Thus as your priest says, “they are better off”.

Allow me to provide more context. He elaborated as such (paraphrased): A person who sees Jesus as vengeful and therefore follows Jesus’ example of “vengefulness” will not experience salvation in this life to a large degree. The person would go through his life hanging onto grudges and trying to get even with people. The person is better off rejecting such following. He has a misperception of the ways of Christ, and he rejects the false image. He is better of not following the misperceived Christ, and simply try to live a moral life. Can you see that fire-and-brimstone televangelism may give the wrong impression of what it means to be a follower of Christ? Forgiveness is called for, not vengeance.

God loves unconditionally. Salvation is in fact conditional. If salvation was “unconditional”, it would mean that God forces heaven on those who don’t want it, and that is by definition not loving. Love must be freely accepted as well as freely given, otherwise it’s not love.

Good point. “Choice” can be considered a condition. God as I know Him accepts people’s aware choices without condition, I guess that sort of specifies it better. I don’t view God as ever letting anyone make a choice to be away from Him forever unless the person is fully aware of the choices. I think that calls for more clarification, but I will let you ask the questions. Feel free to disagree!