Is it possible to see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non-Catholics?

[Timothy_Piper]

First: the bible was not written in chapters and verses. Each Gospel was a complete, seamless story. If you would slow down a bit, you would see that Jesus spoke only to the Apostles when He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. Start at John 14 and read forward from there. Jesus was speaking only to the twelve - not to individual Christians. Much of what Jesus taught was strictly to the twelve. John 14:16 and 16:13 were spoken only to the twelve. It appears that you have grabbed that Apostolic authority for yourself, have you not?

And, Paul did teach, inerrantly, that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:!5). Jesus taught that the Church is the final authority in disputes. “If he will not listen even to the Church, treat him as a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17).

Weak brother; surely you know Scripture better than that. He is the holy Spirit, the Spirit of Promise, the Spirit of Truth - all titles for the same Holy Spirit because He performs a multitude of duties in and through the life of believers and convicts the world of sin. A Christian by definition has the residential Holy Spirit. The only thing said to the Apostles concerning the Holy Spirit that is true only of the Apostles is that He would give them His words when they were in trouble and recall all the words of Jesus when penning the Scripture.

“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

"the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. "

"God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. "

"We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

“It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.”

It is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, that can interpret Scripture, which He will only manifest to the Christian. If you are unable to discern the spirti of truth from the spirit of error, then something is missing.

"Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. "

“Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth”

Also, the Greek word for “foundation” is not used in the passage you cited in describing a function of the church “pillar and support” or “pillar and ground” are correct renderings; only two translations I know of use foundation and your own uses ground or bulwark.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

My comment to “fdesales”

Your conclusion is correct, but your statement:“then God will judge him based on what he knows” requires futher clairifaction.

God will judge humanity NOT simply on what we actually know, BUT ALSO on what we have had the opportunity to know. As such opportunities are too from God, and not accepting them, is effectively denying God.: There are sins of commission and ommission. Both can condem us.thumbsup:

***My comment to the reply.

It certainly stems from that period, but remains as vaid today as it was 2000 years ago.

The reasons for this include the following.***

Christ desires only one Church and FOUNDED only one Church…

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,one Lord, [One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one Baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

Christinaity began with a single Bible [completely written by the end of the First Century] when as you noted there was just the Catholic Church, so the ONLY TRUE Bible remains the Catholic,73 Book bile withour revisions and changes. If your seeking TRUTH, that friend is where to began your search.

Jesus gave Himselg as surety for the truth on all matters of Fith and or Morals, and again, ONE MUST seek truth where [an only where] it actually can be found.

John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” [again the CC is what Jesus consecrates Himself in TRUTH for…]

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

So the Bible tells us us that if one id seeking the SINGUALR truth of God, on all matters of Faith and or Moral issues… They can ONLY be found in the CC and places in line with Catholic Church teaching. Amen

Love and prayers,

Pat

That was an interesting discussion; I am thankful Jesus paid the price of my sins, all of them; therefore I am bought with a price and I am His.

 

[po18guy]

Between the two conditions above in Red, that would equate to very few, which you will find out if you become one. Do Catholics except the parts of their bible that are known to have error as inspired by God and yet believe the Bible is inspired by God, thus making Him the God of error?

You now teach that God inspires error?

It is a shame that you continue to disobey scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 (King James Version)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This accounts for your error in interpretation.

 

[po18guy]

(private interpretation deleted)

Why are you always correct and the rest of the world wrong? Do you sense a little problem there?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Why are you always correct and the rest of the world wrong? Do you sense a little problem there?

Nope; I know more like-minded, than not like-minded. I assume when you say world you mean Catholics in the CAF forum to be “world”.

This is a dead thread; so I’m a gonner - see ya round’; Lord willing.

 

[po18guy]

Nope; I know more like-minded, than not like-minded. I assume when you say world you mean Catholics in the CAF forum to be “world”.

This is a dead thread; so I’m a gonner - see ya round’; Lord willing.

Well, the Lord clearly is willing, since we are here. Just, please, reveal the scripture to us that defends private interpretation.

 

[PJM]

Timothy Piper:

Between the two conditions above in Red, that would equate to very few, which you will find out if you become one. Do Catholics except the parts of their bible that are known to have error as inspired by God and yet believe the Bible is inspired by God, thus making Him the God of error?

***That opinion is just that; your opinion. I KNOW A GREAT MANY IPRC’s

And PLEASE share with us unenlightened, those parts of the bible that you know to be in ERROR? Keep in mind friend that the entire Bible is TRUE, however not necessarly factual.***

Yet the Bible teaches OSAS and I can easily prove that; whereas the Word of God does not teach Marianology, which is encouraged by the church; yet is not dogma because they know this will affect the Ecumenical movement they have going on for many years now and with success. You can conclude one of two things, God has given more revelation to Catholics than the rest or the extra revelation is not from God.

Actually NOT ONLY MORE, BUT BETTER, AND TRUTHFUL:thumbsup: And Again friend, PLEASE, share with us the Biblicle evidence for OSAS… I am unaware of ANYONE elese being able to do so?

And what Marian issues would you like us to explain for you? [Read John 21:24-25]

Code words for ***“we keep working hard for the hope of our salvation/***FONT]”. There is no real mystery, that was revealed in Christ as the Bible clearly tells us, This mystery is a “mystical experience”. Transubstantiation in the Bible was always the form of a humans and/or Jesus revealing some of their glory. It has never been in the form of a wafer and wine w/o showing to one’s eye’s the revelation of some glorification. [Really? GOOGLE “Eucharisitic Mysteries”] It was never ever ingested; this is part the mystical experience, which uses emotion to drawl a feeling of closeness to Christ; it works pretty well from the human perspective. Read 1 CO 11 and Paul explains exactly what happened at the institution of the Lord’s Supper and he wasn’t even there. God does not condone eating of raw flesh or raw blood nor does he have a priesthood, except that of all Christians, nor was there any confessional except in an empty room between you and the Lord and the Book of Acts proves all of what I said is true…

Allow me friend to correct some of your misunderstanding READ Jn. 20:19-23].

**1 Cor. 11: 23-29 **"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

So friend it is Christ who enlighented Paul, and Paul only repeats the eye wittness accounts in Mt. 26: 26-28, Mk.14: 22-24, Lk. 22: 19:21, and Jn. 6:40-69. Paul points out v.27 that “unworthy reception” of the “bread and wine” [now B & B] PROFANES our LORD. How can simply eating bread and wine PEOFANE OUR LORD:shrug:

Further it is the GLORIFIED Body and Blood of Jesus, NOT his human FLESH & BLOOD, that is made present and consumed.

Friend may I suggest that if you wish to PONTIFICATE, that you consider becomming a Catholic?

 

[po18guy]

While the action of the Holy Spirit is clearly seen throughout Christianity, there is also a spirit of division that is active within the body of Christ. It seeks to destroy the unity that our Lord so fervently prayed for (John 17:11, 17:21). This spirit employs the human ego as well as private interpretation of scripture to lead to division. And, the human ego so quickly responds! While this spirit has always been active, recent Christian history in particular bear witness to this. There have appeared, and continue to appear, self-appointed teachers and interpreters of God’s Word that have strayed so far off the narrow path that they have come to a state of disdain toward those who have denied themselves and try to remain on the path established by Christ (Matthew 16:24, Mark 834, Luke 9:23). They have come to regard obedience as foolishness. Have they pondered the scripture that speaks of them (James 3:1, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Peter 2:10)?

Those who have fallen prey to this spirit have not been sent against their fractured, sola scriptura brothers, for the spirit’s work of division is already accomplished there. No, they are consistently sent against the bastion of unity, the Catholic Church. As well-meaning as they are, as fervently as they love our Lord, it is clear that they are being exploited by a spirit to serve an unseen cause - that of diminishing the strength, unity and love amongst believers in Christ. The Apostles Peter and John prophesied that this would occur (2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1), as they saw its beginnings in their time.

There is an arrogance among some of these teachers which is the product of the human ego. It is sanctimonious and assumes itself to be the source of enlightenment and truth. Do we forget that the evil one himself also interprets scripture? (Matthew 4:5-6, Luke 4:9-11) Yes, a spirit does indeed lead many through scripture - a passing spirit which is only too glad to provide that leadership! But, these “teachers” never seem to test the spirits or their fruits (1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 John 4:1). The true Spirit, the One sent from the Father, leads to denial of the self, to the taking up of one’s cross, and to unity in following Christ.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

 

[mmmcounts]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

Check this out. Mosher is the head philosophy guy at Loyola.
epsociety.org/blog/2008/12/interview-with-paul-k-moser-kerygmatic.asp
Enjoy.

Oh, a word of clarification: “Kerygmatic” comes from the Greek “kerygma,” which means “preaching” or “proclamation.” The idea here is that the presence of the Holy Spirit within a person is proclaimed as He does His work. Protestants and Catholics obviously differ on just how the Holy Spirit gets there. The fact that you’re seeing this in your Protestant friends means the Holy Spirit indwells them even though they don’t believe in the efficacy of the sacramental system.

I’ll define a couple of other terms so they don’t upset your flow of thought as you read this:
Epistemology- philosophical theory of knowledge.
Pneumatic- again from Greek, “Pneuma,” which means “spirit.” In this case, it mostly has to do with the Holy Spirit.
Sensus Divinitatis- God is sensed in all humanity as in each person there exists an innate perception of God.
Inimical- unfriendly (toward)

This is probably the most relevant part of the interview:
“We may think of incarnational epistemology as requiring that human inquirers themselves become salient evidence of God’s reality in virtue of becoming God’s temple.”

And this is the part about grace:
“The epistemology offered in kerygmatic philosophy is grace-based, in that firsthand knowledge of God’s reality is a direct gift of God’s grace. The cognitive grace in question supplies a cognitive gift that replaces any demand for intellectual earning, controlling, or dominating with a freely given presence of God’s inviting and transforming Spirit who seeks morally transformative fellowship with humans.”

The primary focus of Mosher’s work has to do with the existence of God. It seems that you have discerned the evidence of God’s presence and work in your own life as well as those of your Protestant and Catholic friends.

 

[fdesales]

Between the two conditions above in Red, that would equate to very few, which you will find out if you become one. Do Catholics except the parts of their bible that are known to have error as inspired by God and yet believe the Bible is inspired by God, thus making Him the God of error?

Yet the Bible teaches OSAS and I can easily prove that; whereas the Word of God does not teach Marianology, which is encouraged by the church; yet is not dogma because they know this will affect the Ecumenical movement they have going on for many years now and with success. You can conclude one of two things, God has given more revelation to Catholics than the rest or the extra revelation is not from God.

Code words for "we keep working hard for the hope of our salvation". There is no real mystery, that was revealed in Christ as the Bible clearly tells us, This mystery is a “mystical experience”. Transubstantiation in the Bible was always the form of a humans and/or Jesus revealing some of their glory. It has never been in the form of a wafer and wine w/o showing to one’s eye’s the revelation of some glorification. It was never ever ingested; this is part the mystical experience, which uses emotion to drawl a feeling of closeness to Christ; it works pretty well from the human perspective. Read 1 CO 11 and Paul explains exactly what happened at the institution of the Lord’s Supper and he wasn’t even there. God does not condone eating of raw flesh or raw blood nor does he have a priesthood, except that of all Christians, nor was there any confessional except in an empty room between you and the Lord and the Book of Acts proves all of what I said is true. The Christian cna live in the knowledge of there salvation; whereas a Catholic is forbidden, which is interesting they can’t know with certainty their own salvation, yet can makes dozens of saints and seem to know theirs; very puzzling to me and always was…

Actually keeping your eyes upon Jesus and removing all the extraneous obstacles to the Christ of salvation is what pleases God as He has demonstrated time and again using Israel as our example of how extra’s tend to be obstacles in worship that is due to God alone.

Perhaps you should take this to the apologetic section where they can be refuted one at a time…

Regards