Is it possible to think Evolution correct and remain Catholic?

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Orogeny:
Irreducible complexity has been shown to be wrong.
High-five Orogeny! Have you read “Finding Darwin’s God”? It’s really good, and cleared my head of alot of the “Intelligent Design” stuff that I had been thinking.

Once again, to all reading this thread, I STRONGLY encourage you to read “Finding Darwin’s God”. If you are basing your arguments on the research of those in the Intelligent Design acedemic ghetto, you should know you are setting yourselves up for defeat. I don’t want to see an atheist defeat anyone. So arm yourselves with the facts.

(By the way Orogeny, I live in Houston too, what parish do you attend? PM me. Maybe we can get some kinda evolution study group going on.)
 
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buffalo:
It has? Sources?
Common sense:

Things routinely get used in ways contrary to their original design.

I found this on the net:
Ok say you have an system that is made of 3 irreducibly complex parts: A, B and C. Without any one of these parts the system will not function.
But this doesn’t mean the parts cannot be used in a different system for a different function. For example imagine a System O that is made of parts A and E.
Here is a potential evolutionary path:
System O = A + E
System P = A + E + B
System Q = A + B + E + F
System R = A + B + E + F + C
System S = A + B + C
All the steps can be functional, all the steps only require one change, yet the end result - System S is irreducibly complex. In principle then here is a case where irreducible complexity can evolve. Hence the hypothesis that irreducible complexity is un-evolvable via darwinian evolution is disproven.
If you look around, buffalo, you will find plenty more. Search “irreducible complexity disproven”.

And once again… PLEASE read “Finding Darwin’s God”, if only so that you can know where some of us are getting our information from.

Like someone said above, let’s leave literalism to the “fundamentalists”.

What is TRUELY fundamental? Truth.
 
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bengeorge:
Common sense:

Things routinely get used in ways contrary to their original design.
If that’s your understanding then you miss the fact of irreducibily comlex structures entirely.

Consider the “evolution” of tanks. When they were first created during WWI, no one was sure how to use them, exactly. Their function became pummeling through barbed wire that stood between trenches - kind of like a bulldozer. Later, tanks evolved into strategic artillery machines that infantry became dependent upon during WWII.

Point being, tanks evolved beyond their original design, but that does not change the fact that if one were to remove the pistons from the engine, the tank would cease to be a tank - or an effective one at that.
 
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bengeorge:
Once again, to all reading this thread, I STRONGLY encourage you to read “Finding Darwin’s God”. If you are basing your arguments on the research of those in the Intelligent Design acedemic ghetto, you should know you are setting yourselves up for defeat. I don’t want to see an atheist defeat anyone. So arm yourselves with the facts.
What is the current, perceived rate of evolution? What can we expect evolution to yield in the next 1000 years? Curious…
 
Here is a great explanation of Irreducibility Complex from a post I read in the FreeRepublic.com forum a while back:
A system is a set or arrangement of interdependent things or components that are related, form a whole, and serve a common purpose. There are two types of systems: natural and fabricated. Premise: If a system is an interdependent collection of parts that function together as a whole, the removal of one part of that system would cause the system not to function.
A part of that system is removed.
Conclusion: the system would cease to function.

This is a logical and valid deduction from the premise: the whole exists as a collection of interdependent components. The only way the above syllogism could be demonstrated to be unsound is if one of the premises were untrue. If the argument is false, then there’s a contradiction in the major premise in that the system wasn’t interdependent. In such case, any system that could function without one of its components is not inherently dependent upon the missing component and therefor a simpler system could exist and by definition the system in question wasn’t an essential system (as one of the components was superfilous). That’s not the issue, and that’s not the syllogism I presented. What the irreducible complexity argument makes is that a complex system can not originate from a simpler system on its own by the addition of previously unrelated components such that the newer system will be dependent on the previously unrelated componentes according to the definition of a system.

A good example is the circulatory system. Each and every component of a circulatory system is required and the omission of any component would cause the system to fail (or not to exist in the first place). What about in an embryo? Clearly there’s a point where there’s no circulatory system. However, the embryo is utterly dependent upon the host (or environment) for the functionality that a circulatory system would provide. According to pure chance, time and natural events, what are the probabilities of such environment occuring, and for sufficient time to allow such organism to develop.

An even deeper question is: would an intermediary organism in such environment, having a semi-formed non-functioning circulatory system, be sufficiently viable on its own whereby it can propagate sufficient number of times whereby time, chance and natural processes will allow sufficient beneficial mutations to occur whereby a fully functional circulatory system will be the net result (upon which ultimately resultant organisms would be utterly dependant)?

If not, then an organism having a functioning circulatory system would be an example of an irreducibly complex system. To compound the matter, additional critical systems are stacked up: nephritic system, lymphatic system, hepatic system, nervous system, etc. each of which in intermediate form would contribute nothing to viability of the host organism (over that of organisms without it) and yet would amount to an enormous amount of essentially dead baggage. Another good example of an irreducibly complex system is that of reefs. A symbiotic relationship exists where Zooxanthellae, a unicellular yellow-brown - dinoflagellate - algae, live symbiotically in the gastrodermis of corals. Without the nutrients supplied by the zooxanthellea the corals couldn’t grow quickly enough to produce reefs, and the coral provides access to light for the zooxanthellae and protection from predators. The two can and do remain as seperate viable entities (both symbiotically and physically), however in all of time both have been in existance they’ve not symbiotically recombined into a single organism (whereby one cell - asexually - or two (sexually) propagates the entire system). As it is the coral propagate sexually and the algea assexually (and both remain distinct despite the mutual benefit of their symbiosis).
 
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mike182d:
I beg to differ, but then again I love beating dead horses - figuratively speaking of course.
You can differ and you don’t even have to beg!
Is evolution an affective cause or a perceived effect? If evolution is a cause, then the theory is very much concerned with the beginning of life because it is being claimed that a new force in the universe came into being at the same time as life. Sounds odd, doesn’t it?

On the other hand, if evolution is only the description of a perceived effect, the theory really hasn’t explained anything and is nothing more than stating in an overly complex way the fact that things change. What good is such a statement, scientifically?
Evolution is not a cause nor is it only a description. Evolution is a part of life.
Take light and color, for example. When I look at my car, I see that it is blue. However, the paint is not the *cause *of my car appearing blue. Rather, it is light that makes the car blue; once the light is gone, the “blueness” is gone. In the paint there are various elements that absorb certain colors of the light spectrum and others that reflect certain colors of the spectrum, but the fact of the matter is that it would not exist, nor continue to exist, nor change, if it were not for the presence of light. Light is the source of all color, and “blueness” is just the effect.
No, let’s not take that analogy because it has nothing to do with evolution.
God is the source of all life and the sole sustainer of it and can change it when He sees fit.
I agree 100%.
Any attempt to explain what affects change and what is the cause of change in the universe is to miss the omnipotent hand of God present in all Creation from the beginning of time.
So, by your logic, the answer to any scientific question should be God did it because any other answer would miss the omnipotent hand of God present in all Creation from the beginning of time? Are you serious?
In my mind, evolution as a theory is nothing more than naturalistic drivel that misses the greater Force at work in the universe.
You may believe what you wish. As it pertains to the origional poster’s question, one may accept evolution and remain a Catholic. I think that is very clearly the position taken by the Church.

Peace

Tim
 
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mike182d:
Here is a great explanation of Irreducibility Complex from a post I read in the FreeRepublic.com forum a while back:
I have read Behe’s book. Now, I suggest you read at least some of the links I provided Buffalo. Bengeorge’s suggestion of Ken Miller’s book is also very good. Ken Miller, like Behe, is Catholic.

Peace

Tim
 
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mike182d:
But evolution isn’t solely concerned with change as change existed prior to life. Evolution cannot explain why planets change as they do, but rather attempts to explain change in life, which is quite different. But, how does an evolutionist explain abiogenesis - or rather the beginning of life? What “natural selection” processes led to the creation of life in the first place from the cliche primordial ooze?

Furthermore, “natural selection” isn’t the cause of the change, it affects the change.
I don’t understand your reference to planets since theories of evolution/natural selection refer only to biology.

As for the origin of life itself the onlyexplanation I’ve heard offered is that aeons ago organic macromolecules at some point reached sufficient complexity that they became self-replicating. It is not a very satisfying guess, even to those who propose it, I would guess. On the other hand, scientists don’t have to explain where life or the universe came from – it is here and they study it and reprot their findings.
 
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didymus:
Evolution isn’t the theory – evolution (change over time) is a fact, clear from the record. Darwin’s theory and later refinments is “natural selection” as the mechanism by which evolution occurs. Certainly it can’t be tested the same way a that a theory of physics can be but that’s true of biology generally.
Lets keep our terms straight. It is a circular argument to use Natural Selection to try to prove geneticly incompatable specization by calling both ideas “evolution” and then declaring that since one idea is proven the other is as well.

Additionally, the “biological species concept” of identifying as separate species diverse but still cross compatable “species” (e.g. dogs and wolves) does not “prove” (and actually contradicts) the idea that sufficient genetic drift can account for non-cross-compatable genetic specization.

In the cases where we have a broadly diverse gene pool of individuals with an established common lineage (no “missing links”) and significant adaptation in regionalized groups, they have all maintained genetic cross-compatability even when adopting substantially differenet genetic adaptations and even diets and social structures.

There is no evolutionary advantage to be found in losing compatability with other decendants of the same parents. However, maintaining a larger avaialble genetic pool for mates is a safeguard against losing a local advantage of adaptation to a regional natural disaster.

I already mentioned the dog/wolf compatability, but that cross compatability among the canines extends to the coyotes, foxes and other niches canines with each other and the entire spectrum of domestic breeds.

The large cats (lions, tiger, cougars) all maintain cross-compatability, and there are documented bobcat/housecat grosses and crosses of bobcats with other larger cats, it looks like the entire feline family has retained genetic cross-compatability across multiple continents.

The cichlids in various African lakes (currently the targets of a naming frenzy by taxonomists) have, despite geographic isolation, retained cross compatability between both specialist groups in the same lake but also from lake to lake.

Killer whales have recently been determined to actually ahve two parallel, non-competing social structures. One group eats fish, the other red meat, and they “speak” differnetly and do not inter-breed as a matter of practice, but can and will “under duress”.

And to further cloud the issue, as more of the fossil record unfolds, population groups long held up as genetic “dead ends” that were incompatible with “sister” species of common parents and died out have instead been shown to be able to interbreed and thus were not examples of incompatible speciesization. The Neanderthal, long presented by the “pure” evolutionists as such an example, have more recently been established ot have co-existed and interbred with the “modern” human lineage. It turns out the Neanderthal were not an incompatabile species “proving” specization within the human gene pool, but were instead just an identifiable “minority group”…

And that’s the pattern we keep coming to, over and over again. Find a set of sexually reproducing isolated groups (of male and female individuals) with verifiable and undisputed common parentage, and for some reason they have retained genetic cross compatability through the course of their adaptations. We might imagine relations between groups in the fossil record based on physical characteristics, but so far our ability to backtrack adapted groups of known common lineage speaks against natural selection leading to geneticially incompatibile specization.
 
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Pondero:
I am not sure about homo sapiens evolving even now. I think of the biblical people and they were just the same as we are. We may evolve over some millions of years. God does know everything about us and knew us, I believe, before we were born, I agree with you. If we do evolve into something else we should still have a soul created at birth. What that something else will be I can only speculate.

As for Darwin being an expert on evolution, no,but he got the basics right. Natural selection and random mutation accounts for evolution.
When I say we are evolving even now…I dont mean we wont be homo sapiens in a million years…I just mean since Biblical times we have even evolved because our enviroment has changed our diets etc…hence people are taller, stronger, live longer than say people in the 1500’s…and you are right Darwin got some of the basics right…therefore my statement…evolving even now.
 
I see no contradiction or conflict in being a Catholic and beliving in the laws of evolution (which as understood properly have moved far beyond Darwin). The important factor here is to acknowledge the evolution is a means and not an end. It’s the means by which God uses the Natural Law to create - that we never loose sight that evolution ultimately points to God’s creative activity (I believe this is profoundly expressed in Gen. 1).

I like to make one other point.in my opinion, part - and a big part - of this whole controversy has been peoples attempt to force science to do things it is not meant to do, namely, science has to
deal with the material creation and is not rooted in proving the metaphysical. . Their task, in my opinion, is to come as close in their understanding and explanation of what ST Thomas call the Primary Cause (Prime Mover) as humanly possible. I think science errors when it moves beyond that to deny even the reasonability of a Primary Cause, the Being we call God.
 
Please remember that the Catholic Church has a problem with Darwinism, but has no problem with evolution.
 
All these arguments aside the real question is - is evolution compatible with Catholicism?

According to the dogmas in post #13 is it? The dogmas have to be reconciled. Since a Catholics starting point is Revelation then science has to reconcile to these dogmas not vice versa.
 
Deus Vult:
When I say we are evolving even now…I dont mean we wont be homo sapiens in a million years…I just mean since Biblical times we have even evolved because our enviroment has changed our diets etc…hence people are taller, stronger, live longer than say people in the 1500’s…and you are right Darwin got some of the basics right…therefore my statement…evolving even now.
Yes, the Catholic Church maintains that the Bible is a book of theology not science. The Catholic Church is not concerned with evolution, the physical changes which have occured to man and animal who walked out of Noah’s Ark after the flood.

The Catholic Church denies DARWINISM, that chance caused life to occur on Earth and chance, through natural selection and not God’s design, is how life developed on Earth to the current day.
 
Bobby A. Greene:
Yes, the Catholic Church maintains that the Bible is a book of theology not science. The Catholic Church is not concerned with evolution, the physical changes which have occured to man and animal who walked out of Noah’s Ark after the flood.

The Catholic Church denies DARWINISM, that chance caused life to occur on Earth and chance, through natural selection and not God’s design, is how life developed on Earth to the current day.
Science is a subset of truth. So science has to be in harmony with Revelation. We need to keep looking deeper.
 
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buffalo:
All these arguments aside the real question is - is evolution compatible with Catholicism?
Yes, evolution is compatible with Catholicism.

Don’t forget that the Catholic Church has no problem with evolution by frowns on Darwinism.

The Bible does not concern itself with what physical changes occured to both man and animal who walked off Noah’s Ark after the flood, and this is the evolution which does not concern the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church attacks DARWINISM, that life occured on Earth by mere chance, and that natural selection, not God’s design, had determined the formation of man and animal on Earth to the current day.

Usually the rapid anti-evolutionary arguments are probably being espoused by protestants, and I just ignore them.
 
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Orogeny:
You can differ and you don’t even have to beg!
Much obliged! 🙂
Evolution is not a cause nor is it only a description. Evolution is a part of life.
With all due respect, that’s the most ambiguous description I’ve ever heard. What *is “*evolution?”
 
Bobby A. Greene:
Yes, evolution is compatible with Catholicism.

Don’t forget that the Catholic Church has no problem with evolution by frowns on Darwinism.

The Bible does not concern itself with what physical changes occured to both man and animal who walked off Noah’s Ark after the flood, and this is the evolution which does not concern the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church attacks DARWINISM, that life occured on Earth by mere chance, and that natural selection, not God’s design, had determined the formation of man and animal on Earth to the current day.

Usually the rapid anti-evolutionary arguments are probably being espoused by protestants, and I just ignore them.
What is evolution apart from random chance and natural selection?
 
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