Is it possible to think Evolution correct and remain Catholic?

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buffalo:
Science is a subset of truth. So science has to be in harmony with Revelation. We need to keep looking deeper.
Let me see if we are in harmony on this. I will give you my viewpoint on Science, and let me know if we are writing about the same thing.

Science (which used to be called ‘philosophy’,) is a tool. A methodology for thesis testing. At the fundamental core of science is the ‘scientific method’ - Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, conclusion. This is the basic scientific method although there are several variations of this theme. Science uses tools such as logic and mathematics to aid in its experimentation and conclusion.

Theologists use science(or philosophy) to maintain the existance of God. Philosophy is a tool of theology. Because the scientist or philosopher claim to be totally objective, they must reject any notion of intangible evidence or ideology, such as religion, to maintain the credence of objectivity; so it behooves the scientist or philosopher to be an atheist to justify the claim of objectivity. The Catholic Priests remains celibate to justify the claim of wordly & material independence while the scientist/philosopher claims atheism to justify the claim of objectivity.

The theologian uses science and/or philosophy to justify religion and to maintain the existence of a higher intelligence. Hence the existance of the Vatican Observatory.

But, Science does not have to be in harmony with any ideology. Science is just a tool or method of proof.

Science and religion are two separate disciplines where science does not use religion, but religion uses science.

In my opinion a pure scientist would have to be a human computer, because no intelligent human being can exist without the revelation that there is a higher being in life besides man.

So science doesn’t have to be in harmony with Revelation, but theology uses science to substantiate Revelation to doubters and atheists. As a Roman Catholic I have never been threatened by science since I have faith that the existance of the cosmos (even multi-universes) is all part of God’s grand plan.
 
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mike182d:
What is evolution apart from random chance and natural selection?
Random chance and natural selection is Darwinism.

Evolution can be the result of physical changes in response to the environment independent of ‘natural selection’ or mere chance.

Since the Catholic Church upholds life on earth occured through design, and not chance, any changes to the physical form as a result of environmental interaction, after the flood,* i.e*. evolution, does not annoy the Catholic Church.

Just the Darwinian claim that life on earth was the result of mere chance or probability and the resultant physical adaptations occured through natural selection only, does indeed annoy the Catholic Church.
 
Bobby A. Greene:
Let me see if we are in harmony on this. I will give you my viewpoint on Science, and let me know if we are writing about the same thing.

Science (which used to be called ‘philosophy’,) is a tool. A methodology for thesis testing. At the fundamental core of science is the ‘scientific method’ - Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, conclusion. This is the basic scientific method although there are several variations of this theme. Science uses tools such as logic and mathematics to aid in its experimentation and conclusion.

Theologists use science(or philosophy) to maintain the existance of God. Philosophy is a tool of theology. Because the scientist or philosopher claim to be totally objective, they must reject any notion of intangible evidence or ideology, such as religion, to maintain the credence of objectivity; so it behooves the scientist or philosopher to be an atheist to justify the claim of objectivity. The Catholic Priests remains celibate to justify the claim of wordly & material independence while the scientist/philosopher claims atheism to justify the claim of objectivity.

The theologian uses science and/or philosophy to justify religion and to maintain the existence of a higher intelligence. Hence the existance of the Vatican Observatory.

But, Science does not have to be in harmony with any ideology. Science is just a tool or method of proof.

Science and religion are two separate disciplines where science does not use religion, but religion uses science.

In my opinion a pure scientist would have to be a human computer, because no intelligent human being can exist without the revelation that there is a higher being in life besides man.

So science doesn’t have to be in harmony with Revelation, but theology uses science to substantiate Revelation to doubters and atheists. As a Roman Catholic I have never been threatened by science since I have faith that the existance of the cosmos (even multi-universes) is all part of God’s grand plan.
If science is not in harmony with truth then one of them is wrong.
 
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buffalo:
All these arguments aside the real question is - is evolution compatible with Catholicism?

According to the dogmas in post #13 is it? The dogmas have to be reconciled. Since a Catholics starting point is Revelation then science has to reconcile to these dogmas not vice versa.
I don’t see anything in that post that precludes evolution.

By the way, what about the information I gave in post #35. Who’s right - you or His Holiness?😃

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
I don’t see anything in that post that precludes evolution.

By the way, what about the information I gave in post #35. Who’s right - you or His Holiness?😃

Peace

Tim
We have been through this already as to what the Pope actually said.

Most of his advisors were evolutonists.

Did the Pope make an infallible statement? No.

None of this changes the fact that it has to be harmonized with these Dogmas: I have a problem getting by #1,2, 12,13 and 18.

The Divine Work of Creation
  1. The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
  2. The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
  3. Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
  4. The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
  5. Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
  6. Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
  7. A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
  8. The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
  9. God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
  10. Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
  11. The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
  12. The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
  13. The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
  14. The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
  15. Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
  16. Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
  17. Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
  18. Code:
    Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
  19. Code:
    Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
  20. Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
  21. Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
  22. In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
  23. Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
 
darwinism is incompatible with Catholicism.

The Church says that we may believe in Creation-that is ex nihilo. That is what I believe.
You are free to believe that God created everything and our first parents, Adam and Eve, and that there were physical changes to organisms over an unknown period of time. But Darwinism is definitely out.
Scripture tells us and the Church tells us that God holds everything in existence. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass helps further order and existence of this world and us and our society every time it is celebrated.
There needs to be a better theory than change over time. Genetic mutations are deadly to organisms and the organism doesn’t survive long enough to reproduce.
I have a degree in geology. I remember the textbook on paleontology always saying they were hoping to discover missing links between species because they hadn’t found any!
As far as intelligence, goes, Benedictus. believing in God and His omnipotence is the greatest sign of intelligence.
All you supporters of evolutionary development over time need to think and study the data for the rest of your lives. Maybe the Holy Spirit will enlighten you a little bit as to how He accomplished the Creation.
You cannot bash those who believe in ex nihilo creation. The Church says it is perfectly acceptable to believe it. In fact, why does Catholic Answers always have apologists for theistic evolution and none for the other perfectly acceptable posotion of ex nihilo creation?
I believe in God more than I believe the faulty data collection and extrapolation of scientists who by neccessity have subjective and ideological tendencies.
 
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buffalo:
We have been through this already as to what the Pope actually said.

Most of his advisors were evolutonists.
So, the Pope, when he was President of the International Theological Commission, didn’t really believe what was written but allowed it’s publication? Or are you claiming he was duped by those on the subcommission? What exactly are you claiming here?:confused:
Did the Pope make an infallible statement? No.
He couldn’t make an infallible statement at the time because he wasn’t Pope when the document was published.
None of this changes the fact that it has to be harmonized with these Dogmas: I have a problem getting by #1,2, 12,13 and 18.
I don’t.

Peace

Tim
 
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buffalo:
If science is not in harmony with truth then one of them is wrong.
What is truth?

I believe the original statement was that Science was a subset of truth, not in harmony with truth.

Oh, by the way, science has never been in harmony with truth, for example, it is true that I feel happy though science cannot prove it or find any symptoms or evidence of happiness. Happiness is an abstraction which does not conform to the scientifc method. One must verbally tell the scientist that one feels ‘happy’ otherwise the scientist, using science, could never ascertain that emotional state of mind. Happines lacks physical evidence so science would be at a loss to ascertain it.

So science is simply a tool of fact finding and not really a tool of truth finding, per se.
 
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Orogeny:
So, the Pope, when he was President of the International Theological Commission, didn’t really believe what was written but allowed it’s publication? Or are you claiming he was duped by those on the subcommission? What exactly are you claiming here?:confused:

He couldn’t make an infallible statement at the time because he wasn’t Pope when the document was published.

I don’t.

Peace

Tim
Help me out.
 
Bobby A. Greene:
What is truth?

I believe the original statement was that Science was a subset of truth, not in harmony with truth.

Oh, by the way, science has never been in harmony with truth, for example, it is true that I feel happy though science cannot prove it or find any symptoms or evidence of happiness. Happiness is an abstraction which does not conform to the scientifc method. One must verbally tell the scientist that one feels ‘happy’ otherwise the scientist, using science, could never ascertain that emotional state of mind. Happines lacks physical evidence so science would be at a loss to ascertain it.

So science is simply a tool of fact finding and not really a tool of truth finding, per se.
So you are proposing that facts do not have to be true?

What I said was science is a subset of truth, it has to be in harmony. Truth is the superset. True scientific facts will be contained in truth. False findings will not.
 
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Orogeny:
I don’t see anything in that post that precludes evolution.

By the way, what about the information I gave in post #35. Who’s right - you or His Holiness?😃

Peace

Tim
BTW - how about the information I gave you on other threads about past Church declarations. Who is right you or the past Holinesses? 😃
 
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Leeta:
I have a degree in geology. I remember the textbook on paleontology always saying they were hoping to discover missing links between species because they hadn’t found any!
Hi, Leeta. Where did you go to school? I, too, have a degree in geology and my paleo textbook didn’t even mention missing links because that is not even a scientific term. The scientific term would be transitional forms and, of course, all forms are transitional.

What was the title of your paleo book? I would like to take a look at that.
As far as intelligence, goes, Benedictus. believing in God and His omnipotence is the greatest sign of intelligence.
All you supporters of evolutionary development over time need to think and study the data for the rest of your lives. Maybe the Holy Spirit will enlighten you a little bit as to how He accomplished the Creation.
In case you missed it in my earlier post, from the document “Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God”, published by the International Theological Commission in, I believe, 2004:
  1. According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
Emphasis added by me.
Here is the link: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

This is a wonderful document that I highly recommend and completely agree with.

Also, please note who authorized the publication of this document. At the time, he went by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I hear he goes by another name these days!😃

Peace

Tim
 
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buffalo:
BTW - how about the information I gave you on other threads about past Church declarations. Who is right you or the past Holinesses? 😃
I guess the question should be the current Pope or Popes from ages when science, especially biology and geology was relatively primative.

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
I guess the question should be the current Pope or Popes from ages when science, especially biology and geology was relatively primative.

Peace

Tim
Ahhhh! So now we have become enlightened. Is that your position?
 
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Orogeny:
It sure seems to be the Pope’s position.

Peace

Tim
I now understand your position better. Where did you stand before he made his comments?

So you are saying the Pope is saying that the old Popes got it wrong and that they misunderstood Revelation?:hmmm:
 
Orogeny about your concerns about dogmas and science I offer you my views:
  1. I believe God created man, but what makes man different than other animals is God has given us a Human Soul which is immortal and has Free Will and Intellect (the faculity to know the truth immediately and without dependence on the senses. So I do not see a conflict with the belief that God creating Man through an evolution so long as there is the understanding that God at some point infused our bodies with a Human Soul.
2.Concerning science, with in its own limits of being rooted in the physical observation, science seems, through genetic mapping, to be moving to that very understanding.
  1. Concerning our material bodies, I believe evolution points to the material development from single cells to the complex body we have today. Again laws of evolution, based on physical observation, really cannot explain when and how God infused the human soul into the body creating man.
Also, I was reading a book that denied the laws of evolution and one of the points this book tried to make was based on the body and everlasting life after the final judgement. I was quite surprized that the author had taken this approach because the NT in light of Christ’s Resurrection teaches that our bodies will be a Resurrected Body that is different from the corruptable bodies we now possess and will decay after death. This is mysteries we all face and have to accept on faith and really isn’t no can it be address by science.
  1. Again Science cannot approach the cause of suffering in the metaphysical sense. Science can only deal with the physical reality of suffering and not the “Why” there is suffering.
Concerning the question of the origins of suffering, I think you would benefit from the Eastern Church’s teachings on Original Sin and its effects.

14.Again, about the knowledge of natural truthes and supernatural truthes, I think you are asking from science something that is just not in science’s relm. Real science can only deal with the physical world because it is based on emperical knowledge.Supernatural knowledge in the end is something, although reasonable, is a metaphysically based reality.
  1. Again, to ask science to make judgement (to prove or disprove) on anything other than what is known emperically is asking science to do that which it is incapable of doing. Science cannot provide the rational for death beyond a physical explanation and it is unreasonable to demand it do other wise.
 
uly 7, 2005 Finding Design in Nature
By CHRISTOPH SCHÖNBORN Vienna

EVER since 1996, when Pope John Paul II said that evolution (a term he did not define) was “more than just a hypothesis,” defenders of neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance - or at least acquiescence - of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.

But this is not true. The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

Consider the real teaching of our beloved John Paul. While his rather vague and unimportant 1996 letter about evolution is always and everywhere cited, we see no one discussing these comments from a 1985 general audience that represents his robust teaching on nature:

“All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a similar conclusion. The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its creator.”

He went on: “To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems.”

Note that in this quotation the word “finality” is a philosophical term synonymous with final cause, purpose or design. In comments at another general audience a year later, John Paul concludes, “It is clear that the truth of faith about creation is radically opposed to the theories of materialistic philosophy. These view the cosmos as the result of an evolution of matter reducible to pure chance and necessity.”

Naturally, the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees: “Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason.” It adds: “We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance.”

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with the notion of “evolution” as used by mainstream biologists - that is, synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

** The commission’s document, however, reaffirms the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of design in nature. Commenting on the widespread abuse of John Paul’s 1996 letter on evolution, the commission cautions that “the letter cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.”

Furthermore, according to the commission, “An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist.”**
 
I**ndeed, in the homily at his installation just a few weeks ago, Benedict proclaimed: “We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”

Throughout history the church has defended the truths of faith given by Jesus Christ. But in the modern era, the Catholic Church is in the odd position of standing in firm defense of reason as well. In the 19th century, the First Vatican Council taught a world newly enthralled by the “death of God” that by the use of reason alone mankind could come to know the reality of the Uncaused Cause, the First Mover, the God of the philosophers.

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of “chance and necessity” are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence. **

Christoph Schönborn, the Roman Catholic cardinal archbishop of Vienna, was the lead editor of the official 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church.

END
 
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