Is it prudent for The Church in the US to be acting as an agent of The State

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

No, we cannot in good conscience serve only Catholics. That is why ACA must be repealed.

I realize that we cannot in good conscience serve only Catholics and I agree with you about the repeal of Obamacare.

My point is that if we operated as an exclusive Catholic organization, the government would have no legal grounds to regulate the hiring and insurance practices of our charities, hospitals and schools, including the curriculum of our schools.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I was able to get good affordable healthcare via “Obamacare”. I’m not going to sit back and let other Catholics take it way. Sorry, you don’t get to choose MY heathcare.

You let Obama CHOOSE your healthcare…why not let God and his Church CHOOSE a better more affordable plan for you???

 

[Personanongrata]

You let Obama CHOOSE your healthcare…why not let God and his Church CHOOSE a better more affordable plan for you???

No thank you. God gave me a brain and I use it to choose my own healthcare. You have the same option.

 

[Ignatius]

You let Obama CHOOSE your healthcare…why not let God and his Church CHOOSE a better more affordable plan for you???

No thank you. .

We’ll have to see what the new administration pushes through congress. We’ll have to pass the bill before we can see what’s in it. Then everyone will have to live with the results. Sound familiar?

 

[Ignatius]

I was able to get good affordable healthcare via “Obamacare”. I’m not going to sit back and let other Catholics take it way. .

You haven’t been keeping up with the news:

The Obama administration published more information about hefty 2016 proposals
Updated June 1, 2015 11:03 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON—The Obama administration published more information Monday about hefty premium increases for 2016.

The rates are projected to triple within the next 10 years.

 

[bjryman]

Recent actions by the current administration have raised the question, “is it prudent for The Catholic Church to be acting as an agent of The State”. The State, in this case the government of the US, is forcing immoral conditions on Church institutions such as Catholic hospitals, orphanages, adoption agencies, etc. in order to continue to to receive government support to do the Charitable and Educational work that The Church has always done. In other words, It is time for The Church to disentangle itself from the government and do the work for the poor without government interference?

The problem that is a real world issue is declining participation by the faithful in the Church’s ministries…but more importantly, in providing enough “treasure” to keep those ministries vibrant on their own. Thus, we receive guidance from the pulpit regarding what we, the faithful, should be doing to convince the State to “do what is right about (fill in blank here)”. Problem is, once “in bed” with the State, it is very difficult to pick among and choose which laws or regulations meet Church teachings. The KEY to all of this is a lack of commitment by the local Catholic Communites to truly and completely fund their own activities. So, in the end to survive in the secular world, we capitulate…first a bit, then ever more.

 

[bjryman]

You haven’t been keeping up with the news:

The Obama administration published more information about hefty 2016 proposals
Updated June 1, 2015 11:03 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON—The Obama administration published more information Monday about hefty premium increases for 2016.

The rates are projected to triple within the next 10 years.

Medicaid enrollment increases comprise the majority of the increase in affordable care for those earning at the Poverty level or below. So if one is from that group, they may have now something they did not previously. My mechanic son and his daughter, making $35,000 per year had a nice United Healthcare policy that pre-ObamaCare he paid $420 per month for (very reasonable). In 2013, after a massive auto accident that policy paid for $450,000 worth of care with our family paying $2,500. After ACA, his policy premiums increased in three updates to just about $600 per month. Our experience has been that for those in his income bracket that had resonable policies before ACA, they are now in dire straights. Changing to ACA will increase his deductible from $2,500 to $6.000. This is the fact that most “middle income” folks are seeing today

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;13023495:

You haven’t been keeping up with the news:

The Obama administration published more information about hefty 2016 proposals
Updated June 1, 2015 11:03 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON—The Obama administration published more information Monday about hefty premium increases for 2016.

The rates are projected to triple within the next 10 years.

Medicaid enrollment increases comprise the majority of the increase in affordable care for those earning at the Poverty level or below. So if one is from that group, they may have now something they did not previously. My mechanic son and his daughter, making $35,000 per year had a nice United Healthcare policy that pre-ObamaCare he paid $420 per month for (very reasonable). In 2013, after a massive auto accident that policy paid for $450,000 worth of care with our family paying $2,500. After ACA, his policy premiums increased in three updates to just about $600 per month. Our experience has been that for those in his income bracket that had resonable policies before ACA, they are now in dire straights. Changing to ACA will increase his deductible from $2,500 to $6.000. This is the fact that most “middle income” folks are seeing today

Yes and expect the ACA to triple, that would make them $7,500 to $18,000 within 10 years, if it is not repealed and replaced.

 

[bjryman]

Catholic Charities, schools, and other Catholic Social Programs can become exclusively Catholic. In other words…only serving Catholics and not accepting any government support. Non-Catholics could be courteously referred to state run programs and schools.
Catholic hospitals could reestablish themselves as part of the “Catholic Healthcare System” employing ONLY Catholics and serving ONLY Catholics. All Catholics would then be exempt from Obamacare.

Yes, of course. Inherent in your comments is the assumption that there will be enough funds available for these significantly curtailed entities. Many Catholic Schools are surviving and flourishing due to subsidies of various types provided to attendees.

Schools and other institutions that wish to serve only those “willing to pay” will most likely find themselves unable to pay staffs, etc. The sad fact is that those posting here probably represent the 36% of Catholics that attend Mass regulary, and participate in multiple Parish ministries. These folks are evermore getting “tapped out” on time, talent, and treasure…mostly time. If the percentage of engagement by other Catholics does not happen, then we are truly a Church about a third of the size as it seems…with all the financial and time challenges those facts entail

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Yes, of course. Inherent in your comments is the assumption that there will be enough funds available for these significantly curtailed entities. Many Catholic Schools are surviving and flourishing due to subsidies of various types provided to attendees.

Of course you are correct.

However. I see a double edged sword here. If Catholic schools and services simply closed their doors…what would local society do? Schools and hospitals are not built overnight.
A school district facing the beginning of the school year with a student increase of 25% would be in dire straights.

 

[Ignatius]

Of course you are correct.

However. I see a double edged sword here. If Catholic schools and services simply closed their doors…what would local society do? .

Home schooling may be the only viable alternative.

 

[mikekle]

Ive always thought many of our local churches are a little too ‘chummy’ with city govts, seems like they get along quite well, when in reality, and in history it was usually the exact opposite…??

 

[bjryman]

Ive always thought many of our local churches are a little too ‘chummy’ with city govts, seems like they get along quite well, when in reality, and in history it was usually the exact opposite…??

Well, historically outside the USA the connection has been quite close. In fact, the pre-Vatican II Church teachings encourged a close State/Church link.

The other comment regarding where all the kids go if Catholic Schools close is valid, and so too if other private Faith Based schools close as well.

Tough to navigate around all the complexity. Another side issue is regarding the reduced size of Churchs and thus revenue. When over 50% of Sunday collections go to the attached school in most parishes, how can those schools continue their funding without pariishes reducing funding elsewhere. Where I draw the line is when parishes start to cut back on support of the Mass (like, let’s fire the Music Director). I also have problem with schools only handling on segment of parish population. How about all the other community outreach and gender/age based support? What if the funds were reallocated to significant work in those areas?

This is from a person who attended Catholic k-8 school and so to did some of my kids

 

[Ignatius]

Tough to navigate around all the complexity. When over 50% of Sunday collections go to the attached school in most parishes, how can those schools continue their funding without pariishes reducing funding elsewhere.

This is from a person who attended Catholic k-8 school and so to did some of my kids

Home schooling may be the only viable alternative.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Home schooling may be the only viable alternative.

A good point. Home schooling would be a wonderful alternative for parents who want the best education for their children and have no private school available.

But let’s remember that the vast majority of parents use schools as daycare centers and could care less about education.

 

[mkoopman]

Well, historically outside the USA the connection has been quite close. In fact, the pre-Vatican II Church teachings encourged a close State/Church link.
…

Where I draw the line is when parishes start to cut back on support of the Mass (like, let’s fire the Music Director).

By George, now I had never thought on this. What a great idea - I think mine prefers Scotch Whiskey, dry not blended, if you should decide to fire him up. Grill me on it if need be.

I also have problem with schools only handling on segment of parish population. How about all the other community outreach and gender/age based support?

I shant probably ask what is a gender/age based support? I think this might be something like the pillow that soldiers wear for sensitivity training, not sure.

However, adult education programs and retraining / work preparedness programs through parish efforts could present Holy Mother Church more alive in that fullness found in holding to the dignity of persons and the command to clothe the naked. Both those who train and those who are led to such youth and adult outreach will see Jesus in others responding to the beatitudes in the light of Christ.

As if there were resources for lifetime teaching with awareness of catholic workers.

 

[bjryman]

A good point. Home schooling would be a wonderful alternative for parents who want the best education for their children and have no private school available.

But let’s remember that the vast majority of parents use schools as daycare centers and could care less about education.

Yes, and the more kids a couple chooses to bring into the world, the greater is the likelyhood that a two income family is required just to survive and provide education and the like to their children

 

[bjryman]

By George, now I had never thought on this. What a great idea - I think mine prefers Scotch Whiskey, dry not blended, if you should decide to fire him up. Grill me on it if need be.

I shant probably ask what is a gender/age based support? I think this might be something like the pillow that soldiers wear for sensitivity training, not sure.

However, adult education programs and retraining / work preparedness programs through parish efforts could present Holy Mother Church more alive in that fullness found in holding to the dignity of persons and the command to clothe the naked. Both those who train and those who are led to such youth and adult outreach will see Jesus in others responding to the beatitudes in the light of Christ.

As if there were resources for lifetime teaching with awareness of catholic workers.

How about some of the following ideas:

1. Senior citizens Catholic Center located on Parish grounds, in old school building
   which might also include:
2. Half way house for unwed pregnant women using part of school as dorm and cafeteria as food preparation
3. Consuling “area” set aside for use by part time Child Advocates working for County or directly volunteering services as parish members with the proper certification.
4. Making sure the funds for the Church upkeep, liturgical “enhancements” that meet the spirit of Vatican II for full engagement by “the people of God” in the process.
5. And of course as you note, RCIA, RCIC, SMRE would all use the facilities during the week and for, what in our parish is, “Sunday School SMRE”

I could go on…and intend to discuss volunteering to lead one of the above items at our Parish upon my retirement next year.

But, see my point? The funds collected then, along with the available buildings, and with mostly volunteers, can serve a much broader segment of community while ensuring all that is necessary is being done to support the number one reason Catholics are different “The Mass”, and related rituals.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

A good point. Home schooling would be a wonderful alternative for parents who want the best education for their children and have no private school available…

It is wonderful for those parents who qualify as teachers and who have the time and dedication to do it. But most parents would not be qualified to teach high school. Certainly not math and science and info tech. At least one parent has to spend full time being a teacher. In practice, few can do it.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

It is wonderful for those parents who qualify as teachers and who have the time and dedication to do it. But most parents would not be qualified to teach high school. Certainly not math and science and info tech. At least one parent has to spend full time being a teacher. In practice, few can do it.

I don’t agree with that…

Other than a mental condition or total lack of basic education, most parents are more qualified to educate their children than professional teachers. Even the few good teachers are constrained by a state curriculum, school district rules, and additional administrative duties.

“Those who can…do. Those who can’t…teach.”