Is it prudent for The Church in the US to be acting as an agent of The State

[LeafByNiggle]

I don’t agree with that…

Other than a mental condition or total lack of basic education, most parents are more qualified to educate their children than professional teachers. Even the few good teachers are constrained by a state curriculum, school district rules, and additional administrative duties.

“Those who can…do. Those who can’t…teach.”

That might be true up to middle school. But I specifically said “high school”. That is where you normally start getting specialized teachers for math, chemistry, biology, physics, music, language, etc. it a very rare parent indeed who can teach all these things at that level.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

That might be true up to middle school. But I specifically said “high school”. That is where you normally start getting specialized teachers for math, chemistry, biology, physics, music, language, etc. it a very rare parent indeed who can teach all these things at that level.

The standards for high school subjects like math, chemistry, biology, physics are so low today that any parent who attended high school in the 1970’s would be at a Master’s level for those subjects compared to what is graduating today.

Language? Are ANY languages being taught in high schools today.

Music?

 

[mkoopman]

The standards for high school subjects like math, chemistry, biology, physics are so low today that any parent who attended high school in the 1970’s would be at a Master’s level for those subjects compared to what is graduating today.

Language? Are ANY languages being taught in high schools today.

Music?

Classical philosophy of pagan origin and raised by Aquinas and others to the fullness of Faith often perceives that as goes the family by way of origination so goes society. Family is the root, the domestic church is the primordial teacher of the virtues and values that build or destroy a culture.

The culture of death is a one way tract that offers no hope and bears no true solutions. Actions that repair or restore the dignity of persons that is intrinsic to the sanctity of life are the only actions that make sense within one true faith and properly represent church teaching.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The standards for high school subjects like math, chemistry, biology, physics are so low today that any parent who attended high school in the 1970’s would be at a Master’s level for those subjects compared to what is graduating today.

You can’t possibly back up such a ridiculous statement. Just “attending” high school in the 1970’s does not mean you even** took** any of these classes (except for math, which is required). Home schooling your high-school child resigns him or her to taking only the electives that you took. And despite your claim, I doubt if many students from the 1970’s who are not actively using a particular elective in their job today could even pass the final of the same subject they took. If you think high-school kids today don’t know anything, just take a look at some of the top finishers in the robotics competitions. They are doing things with engineering and computer science that were only done in college in their parents’ era, or were outright impossible.

Language? Are ANY languages being taught in high schools today.

Yes. They are elective, but yes, they are. And how many parents are capable of teaching a foreign language?

Music?

Have you ever heard the radio program called “From the Top”? It is amazing what young kids are doing in high school music today.

There are a few parents who happen to be highly-educated and dedicated (and rich) who actually can do a good job at home-schooling at the high-school level. But these are by far the exception.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

You can’t possibly back up such a ridiculous statement.

You are right, Leaf. I can’t back it up. It is simply my personal observation based on a very critical life-long study of the public school system.

Just “attending” high school in the 1970’s does not mean you even** took** any of these classes (except for math, which is required). Home schooling your high-school child resigns him or her to taking only the electives that you took. And despite your claim, I doubt if many students from the 1970’s who are not actively using a particular elective in their job today could even pass the final of the same subject they took. If you think high-school kids today don’t know anything, just take a look at some of the top finishers in the robotics competitions. They are doing things with engineering and computer science that were only done in college in their parents’ era, or were outright impossible.

There are always “achievers”. Those who excel. The trouble is there is not enough of them. The proportion of “losers” far outweighs the achievers.

This year our local high school had a record participation in the Science Fair. You would be pleased to know that the kid who won did a masterful project about the control of climate change. Of course I was annoyed about that …but pleased to know he was being home schooled.

Yes. They are elective, but yes, they are. And how many parents are capable of teaching a foreign language?

Multilingual parents. (Like mine) Parents who speak English as a second language and parents who can afford a Rosetta Stone course.

Have you ever heard the radio program called “From the Top”? It is amazing what young kids are doing in high school music today.

I have, and I enjoy it. But most of those kids don’t attend regular high school. Most are excellent students at Visual and Performing Arts Schools.

There are a few parents who happen to be highly-educated and dedicated (and rich) who actually can do a good job at home-schooling at the high-school level. But these are by far the exception.

There would be a lot more if home schooling were encouraged.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You are right, Leaf. I can’t back it up. It is simply my personal observation based on a very critical life-long study of the public school system.

Don’t change the subject. The debate was not between public school and private school. It was between home schooling and all other schools (public and private).

There are always “achievers”. Those who excel. The trouble is there is not enough of them. The proportion of “losers” far outweighs the achievers.

Yes, that is a serious problem - a problem for which home schooling at the high school level is not the solution. The reason home schooling is not more popular is that most parents know when they are not up to the task, and do not attempt it without exceptional preparation even if they are qualified.

This year our local high school had a record participation in the Science Fair. You would be pleased to know that the kid who won did a masterful project about the control of climate change. Of course I was annoyed about that …but pleased to know he was being home schooled.

Good for him! But most students cannot learn advanced chemistry, biology, electronics, and mathematics from just their parents.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Don’t change the subject. The debate was not between public school and private school. It was between home schooling and all other schools (public and private).

Not changing the subject. I am only critical of government schools, not private schools.
My contention is that if a child cannot be enrolled in a private school then he/she should be home-schooled.

Yes, that is a serious problem - a problem for which home schooling at the high school level is not the solution. The reason home schooling is not more popular is that most parents know when they are not up to the task, and do not attempt it without exceptional preparation even if they are qualified.

Good for him! But most students cannot learn advanced chemistry, biology, electronics, and mathematics from just their parents.

Well golly gee…maybe its that infernal internet thing.

 

[Rau]

Not changing the subject. I am only critical of government schools, not private schools.
My contention is that if a child cannot be enrolled in a private school then he/she should be home-schooled.

Zoltan, how is that to be achieved when the parents are themselves inadequately educated for the task, or as is even more common, both need to work to provide food and shelter?

 

[mkoopman]

Zoltan, how is that to be achieved when the parents are themselves inadequately educated for the task, or as is even more common, both need to work to provide food and shelter?

Well then it is prudent to work with the welfare state and raise underachievement to a new high. Under a totalitarian welfare state (didn’t they used to call that Communism?) mom and dad can both be home smoking dope and drinking beer. They can even make money for a Rosetta Stone course by selling drugs.

This is the dialectical movement toward a greater society and a new transhuman species.

 

[Rau]

Well then it is prudent to work with the welfare state and raise underachievement to a new high. Under a totalitarian welfare state (didn’t they used to call that Communism?) mom and dad can both be home smoking dope and drinking beer. They can even make money for a Rosetta Stone course by selling drugs.

This is the dialectical movement toward a greater society and a new transhuman species.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make!

 

[mkoopman]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make!

The “first world” nations are no model to follow for strong family life and respect for life that are synonymous when we model what true respect for life means at all stages.

Egyptian and Syrian martyrs are bound for heaven through suffering accepted with devotion and faith in Jesus. While “first world” achievers argue over who gets to pay for killing unborn persons and when we may decide to “mercy kill” person who are too great a burden to be loved and supported and who present medical bills that no one can afford.

ACA is directed at making sure we can terminate such patients sooner rather than to find solutions that allow us to respect life. Arguing for such approaches is not arguing for solutions but stealing from ill persons for our own personal gains. Arguing against such proposals is not done to support life nor to raise people up to a better path in life but as a way to maintain the bigger slice of welfare pie that one already maintains.

Where is the “third way?” The path that truly follows in the footsteps of Christ?

 

[bjryman]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make!

Had to read the post a couple of times, but I sense that there is an attempt ot link Welfare State to Percieved Utopian (i.e. Communist in this case) Condition where the lowest common denominator of personal existence is maintained.

The post is cynical thus really decrying that condition.

Bottom line seems to be: is it better to collaborate with State to “take care” of people with no prerquisite of responsibility and accountability to a societal contribution by each person. In other words, the net result is a whole bunch of people taking from the State as “victims”, while returning very little.

Of course the teachings of the Church call for each one of its members to fully contribute to the community based upon being the best they can be. “Dropping Out” is not an option and much of the assistance is to allow folks to take on new opportunities, and not just take entitlements and remain at that state of lifestyle.

Easy to say, tough to do.

 

[mkoopman]

Had to read the post a couple of times, but I sense that there is an attempt ot link Welfare State to Percieved Utopian (i.e. Communist in this case) Condition where the lowest common denominator of personal existence is maintained.

The post is cynical thus really decrying that condition.

Bottom line seems to be: is it better to collaborate with State to “take care” of people with no prerquisite of responsibility and accountability to a societal contribution by each person. In other words, the net result is a whole bunch of people taking from the State as “victims”, while returning very little.

Of course the teachings of the Church call for each one of its members to fully contribute to the community based upon being the best they can be. “Dropping Out” is not an option and much of the assistance is to allow folks to take on new opportunities, and not just take entitlements and remain at that state of lifestyle.

Easy to say, tough to do.

Nicely abstract, but in fact the argument is about who pays to kill grandma and the newest member of the family who will never be born. This is the matter, despite how much hot air is released to teach us about how this is not the crux of the matter. These types of proposals are not matters of prudential judgement but about direct contribution to intrinsic evils.

So, isn’t posing the question in terms of prudential judgement a cynical idea in the first place?

Such types of conjectural basis that originate in relevant logic that is sold to those with a victim’s attitude under a welfare state are why I indicate Chomsky as one of my interests. I really don’t like Chomsky’s world view one bit - but his perspective on what sells and how to talk people into doing things they would hate themselves for doing if they weren’t so broken and fixated on addictions appears to work when applied in huge doses from all communication venues.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Zoltan, how is that to be achieved when the parents are themselves inadequately educated for the task, or as is even more common, both need to work to provide food and shelter?

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Is that your response to homeschooling’s inability to provide high level technical education? Sure, ditch-digging is a respectable profession - if one freely chooses it. But for a child to be resigned to such jobs because the parents made the decision to withhold the opportunity for technical education - that’s a crime.

 

[Rau]

The “first world” nations are no model to follow for strong family life and respect for life that are synonymous when we model what true respect for life means at all stages.

Egyptian and Syrian martyrs are bound for heaven through suffering accepted with devotion and faith in Jesus. While “first world” achievers argue over who gets to pay for killing unborn persons and when we may decide to “mercy kill” person who are too great a burden to be loved and supported and who present medical bills that no one can afford.

ACA is directed at making sure we can terminate such patients sooner rather than to find solutions that allow us to respect life. Arguing for such approaches is not arguing for solutions but stealing from ill persons for our own personal gains. Arguing against such proposals is not done to support life nor to raise people up to a better path in life but as a way to maintain the bigger slice of welfare pie that one already maintains.

Where is the “third way?” The path that truly follows in the footsteps of Christ?

Seems a curious argument in support of home schooling by ill-equipped parents who can’t afford a private school, but that’s just my opinion…

 

[Rau]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

So the wealthy and or well-educated parents get to see their children have educational opportunities (be that courtesy of private schools or home-schooling - since the parents are equipped to provide those), and the rest should eschew schooling and set their sights on ditch-digging. Not really a good plan Zoltan.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Is that your response to homeschooling’s inability to provide high level technical education?

No!

That was my response to “inadequately educated parents”

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

So the wealthy and or well-educated parents get to see their children have educational opportunities (be that courtesy of private schools or home-schooling - since the parents are equipped to provide those), and the rest should eschew schooling and set their sights on ditch-digging. Not really a good plan Zoltan.

It is not a plan, Rau. It’s reality.

It will continue this way as long as children are told that ONLY the children of wealthy and/or well-educated parents will get all the opportunities in life. Children educated in this manner may as well consider themselves to be the next generation of ditch diggers.

 

[Rau]

It is not a plan, Rau. It’s reality.

It will continue this way as long as children are told that ONLY the children of wealthy and/or well-educated parents will get all the opportunities in life. Children educated in this manner may as well consider themselves to be the next generation of ditch diggers.

I applaud the “State” for seeking to make education available to all regardless of Family wealth and the capacity of parents to home-school.

As to your post, you seem to have changed to another track…