Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

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Oreoracle said:
Honestly, I just come here because I like to argue. Every once in a while it leads to me refining my position slightly, but that’s not really my purpose in doing it. Oftentimes the only refinement is the realization that a particular rebuttal is more effective than others. For example, on the thread about free will, I learned that an argumentum ad absurdum is much more effective than arguing for determinism directly.
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This is why I stopped posting here. I believe some people are looking for a rational way to believe in God (like the OP, and that’s why I asked him/her what he/she was looking for before I started) and others are looking for a rational way not to believe in God, when it’s the latter, I believe they look for the holes in my arguments and if they don’t find any, they leave searching for other materials in order to strengthen their original position, which I believe is understandable and why I usually try to avoid that.
Oreoracle said:
The deeper problem is the delivery of those sentiments. You two are doing it in a way that will turn off any would-be converts.

When you’re in a forum like this, the intention is to have people converse as equals. But the tone you guys are using suggests that you already have everything figured out, and you’re really doing those poor atheists a favor by tossing them a bone. You’ve “been there before”, as if we’re teenagers throwing tantrums and you’re giving us a lecture. Unsurprisingly, it comes across as condescending, likely as condescending as you found me addressing you as if you were students in my classroom.

Just imagine if a Christian-turned-atheist claimed to “know where you’re at” and express his desire that you will relinquish your religion someday. The implication that he is ahead of you along some imaginary linear path would be condescending, would it not?

Class dismissed.
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I agree.

I believe Dr Phil gave me a good little piece of advice in his book ‘Life Code’ when he said “The manner and style with which you engage other people is going to determine how they respond to you.” I believe a post on these forums can make a massive difference simply on it’s delivery.

And I think there is a reason why people usually avoid talk of religion and politics at the dinner table lol 😉

I still think it’s good to talk about these things, but I also try to be very careful with the subject too. 🙂

I also agree with Ravi Zacharias when he said “Nothing, absolutely nothing, has a more direct bearing on the moral choices made by individuals or the purposes pursued by society than belief or disbelief in God.” Thus why such an argument I believe is usually very heated.

God Bless (If you don’t mind me saying that, it’s a good thing :))

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
glendab said:
Do some study on the Fibonacchi Sequence. The latest thing it has been found in is Quantum Mechanics at the subatomic scale. Really amazing how this simple sequence returns again and again and again all through created matter. Some were so awed by its frequency and return to have called it the signature of God.
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I think that it is possible to have a rational belief in a God. However, I suspect the vast majority of believers do not have such a rational basis and instead rely on this sort of hand-waving “isn’t that cool” evidence. The obvious problem is that these sorts of examples are often embellished, oversimplified, or altogether wrong.

I see it a lot in stories of personal experiences with God. For example I’ve personally had at least three different Christians tell me some story of a time when they were in some sort of pinch (e.g. stuck at an airport without money for a ride) then after they -]prayed/-] waited a while someone offered to help them. This is taken as evidence for God rather than evidence for friendly people. Its fine to celebrate the fact that you got out of a pickle, but just like using the Fibonacci sequence as evidence for God, it is classic example of confirmation bias.
 
JapaneseKappa said:
I think that it is possible to have a rational belief in a God. However, I suspect the vast majority of believers do not have such a rational basis . . .
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I know God through love, which is infinitely beautiful and encompasses all existence. Oh yeah, it all makes sense too.
 
miguel said:
Does anyone remember The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins? Is that the kind of attitude we should avoid?
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In fairness to Dawkins, I think his intention was pretty clearly to boost atheists’ morale and get them to come out of the closet. I don’t think he was interested in an actual dialogue with religious people. If he were trying to convert people, I would agree that his approach is likely ineffective.
josh987654321 said:
This is why I stopped posting here. I believe some people are looking for a rational way to believe in God (like the OP, and that’s why I asked him/her what he/she was looking for before I started) and others are looking for a rational way not to believe in God, when it’s the latter, I believe they look for the holes in my arguments and if they don’t find any, they leave searching for other materials in order to strengthen their original position, which I believe is understandable and why I usually try to avoid that.
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I can’t speak for everyone, but personally, I’ve just heard most of the stock arguments that Christians typically use. There have even been a few occasions on these forums where a topic started and I outlined beforehand, nearly point for point, which arguments would be made and which rebuttals would be made.

So if someone leaves a discussion, it may be that they are closed-minded, but more likely they already know what you’re going to say and they never found those arguments convincing in the past. That applies to both Christians and atheists.
I also agree with Ravi Zacharias when he said “Nothing, absolutely nothing, has a more direct bearing on the moral choices made by individuals or the purposes pursued by society than belief or disbelief in God.” Thus why such an argument I believe is usually very heated.
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I respectfully disagree, at least as far as the statement concerns individual behavior. I assure you that the day-to-day lifestyles of Christians and atheists hardly differ at all. The main difference is that my schedule is usually clear on Sunday mornings. 😉

There are several things people have heated discussions over that are more or less inconsequential. Sports is a great example.
 
Hello JapaneseKappa.
JapaneseKappa said:
I think that it is possible to have a rational belief in a God. However, I suspect the vast majority of believers do not have such a rational basis and instead rely on this sort of hand-waving “isn’t that cool” evidence. The obvious problem is that these sorts of examples are often embellished, oversimplified, or altogether wrong.

I see it a lot in stories of personal experiences with God. For example I’ve personally had at least three different Christians tell me some story of a time when they were in some sort of pinch (e.g. stuck at an airport without money for a ride) then after they -]prayed/-] waited a while someone offered to help them. This is taken as evidence for God rather than evidence for friendly people. Its fine to celebrate the fact that you got out of a pickle, but just like using the Fibonacci sequence as evidence for God, it is classic example of confirmation bias.
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Nice of you to reply. However, why are you ignoring my question about your particular brand of religion. Do you think concealing it will assist your debates or give you an edge in debate? I don’t think it will help. Those who desire to talk about the things here at CAF will have a better idea of where you are coming from if you share this simple fact with us.

Glenda
 
glendab said:
Hello JapaneseKappa.

Nice of you to reply. However, why are you ignoring my question about your particular brand of religion. Do you think concealing it will assist your debates or give you an edge in debate? I don’t think it will help. Those who desire to talk about the things here at CAF will have a better idea of where you are coming from if you share this simple fact with us.

Glenda
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Anyone who believes in God just because they got money only believes in a demon.
Believing just to get is not a believer. Thanking God for. What you don’t get is.
God witholds for a good reason.
Wake up people.
 
glendab said:
Nice of you to reply. However, why are you ignoring my question about your particular brand of religion. Do you think concealing it will assist your debates or give you an edge in debate? I don’t think it will help. Those who desire to talk about the things here at CAF will have a better idea of where you are coming from if you share this simple fact with us.
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I am well aware that the best defense is a good offence. I’ve seen numerous discussions with religious people who seem to employ that sort of reasoning. Rather than attempt to answer questions directed at their own position, they opt instead to attack irrelevant parts of the questioner’s position. It is for this reason I will avoid aligning myself with any overarching “-ism” or belief system and restrict myself to the very specific claims I wish to make.

In fact, I myself was somewhat guilty of that strategy in this very thread. Rather than restricting myself to the topic and defending my original claim “there is circumstantial evidence against God, e.g. natural suffering” I went off and cited religious texts. While a religion’s texts could be used to argue that a particular religion’s God may be irrational, it doesn’t necessarily mean that there are no rational conceptions of God. I would like to defend myself by saying it is likely that the most people had that particular God in mind when thinking about this question, but that is exactly the reasoning I just got done criticizing.

I will also note that on this forum I will probably be defending at least a few positions I don’t actually believe, and those positions will be unpopular here. The reason for doing this is that by actually making an honest attempt to defend those positions I will come to understand them better. Also, “defending against the choir” isn’t very good exercise, so naturally on a Catholic forum I will be defending non-Catholic positions. Therefore, if I align myself with some “-ism” prematurely and later want to defend a position that doesn’t fit that “-ism” people will likely say something like: “as a ____ist you can’t take that position!”
 
Aloysium said:
I know God through love, which is infinitely beautiful and encompasses all existence. Oh yeah, it all makes sense too.
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Love is famously patient and kind, but I don’t think any psalms sing of its rationality. In fact, “keeping no record of wrongs” is pretty much the definition of the confirmation bias that I was warning about.
 
JapaneseKappa said:
Love is famously patient and kind, but I don’t think any psalms sing of its rationality. In fact, “keeping no record of wrongs” is pretty much the definition of the confirmation bias that I was warning about.
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I don’t know if you are male or married but I can imagine the wonderful discussions you will have with your wife about confirmation bias, when she asks you to whisper sweet words of love in her ear.
 
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JapaneseKappa:
You have the idea that sex is love.
you have no idea how confused you are.
 
I’ve always thought the Christian use of “love” is dishonest. The word is very appealing because we all have personal experience with it. Sure, we may not be able to define it easily, but we “know it when we see it”. Since it is such an appealing concept, it makes possible an effective salesman tactic: “Our God is a god of love. God doesn’t want slavish obedience, he just wants your love.”

The problem, as JapaneseKappa pointed out, is that our everyday experience with love results in much heartbreak because it isn’t a rational thing. I’ve overlooked many of my friends’ flaws out of love for them, for example, when I should have been more stringent in dealing with them. When this is pointed out, Christians commit the No True Scotsman Fallacy by saying that that isn’t what they mean by “love”.

So they use the popular, emotional conception to sell their product, and then they move the goalposts when someone wants a refund. Just be honest. If you mean something different than everyone else when you use the word “love”, then just devise a new word to denote your meaning, or at least be upfront about the obscure definition you’re using.
 
Aloysium said:
So I take it that there would not be any discussions about confirmational bias. If you want to know, really know, you have to relate, to love. Love creation and God from whom all beauty springs.
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I’m still not sure what you’re trying to say. Love is not a rational basis for concluding that God exists anymore than it is a rational basis for a woman to stay with her abusive husband.
 
Oreoracle said:
In fairness to Dawkins, I think his intention was pretty clearly to boost atheists’ morale and get them to come out of the closet. I don’t think he was interested in an actual dialogue with religious people. If he were trying to convert people, I would agree that his approach is likely ineffective.
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😦 I believe his book only serves to futher icnite the indifference, hatred and anger of those with the same misunderstandings and misconceptions of our faith.
Oreoracle said:
I can’t speak for everyone, but personally, I’ve just heard most of the stock arguments that Christians typically use. There have even been a few occasions on these forums where a topic started and I outlined beforehand, nearly point for point, which arguments would be made and which rebuttals would be made.

So if someone leaves a discussion, it may be that they are closed-minded, but more likely they already know what you’re going to say and they never found those arguments convincing in the past. That applies to both Christians and atheists.
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So then, may I ask, what are you looking for?
Oreoracle said:
I respectfully disagree, at least as far as the statement concerns individual behavior. I assure you that the day-to-day lifestyles of Christians and atheists hardly differ at all. The main difference is that my schedule is usually clear on Sunday mornings. 😉

There are several things people have heated discussions over that are more or less inconsequential. Sports is a great example.
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I respectfully disagree 🙂

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Oreoracle said:
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:sad_yes:

‘Love’ is one of those words, that I believe has been manipulated, abused and misused so much by so many people.

Kind of like the guy who has an affair on his wife says he loves both his wife and his mistress, when in the true sense of the word, he actually loves neither of them. If he loved his wife in the true sense of the word he would have remaind faithful to her and if he loved his mistress in the true sense of the word, he wouldn’t have gone after her as a married man.

The ‘love’ that Christians are talking about is ‘Agape’ the ‘love of agape’ which is selfless love.

It is this kind of love -

Sacred Heart of Jesus Image - (St Margaret-Mary Alacoque)

http://s7.postimg.org/4jx43bm1n/Christ_7.jpg

Jesus to St Margaret-Mary Alacoque -

**"Behold this Heart which has loved men so much that it has spared nothing, even to exhausting **(Crucifixion) and consuming itself (Last Supper, Eucharist) in order to testify to them it’s love."

What I also find interesting, is this occured in 1675 before any Eucharistic Miracle could be thoroughly scientificly analysed as the ones linked below have, and in the ones below, we find that it is not just any human tissue, but more specific heart muscle tissue (Cardiac muscle tissue), from the left ventricle that gives the heart it’s beat.

It is this kind of love -

http://s28.postimg.org/6bvy5pai5/Prodigal_Son.jpg
Jesus to Catalina:
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

I want to teach sinners that because they have sinned, they should not distance themselves from Me thinking that they no longer have recourse and that they will never be loved as before they sinned. Poor souls! These are not the feelings of a God who has shed all His Blood for you. Come to Me all of you and fear not, because I love you. I will cleanse you with My Blood and you will be as white as snow. I will drown your sins in the water of My Mercy and nothing will be able to snatch from My Heart the Love that I have for you.
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Jesus to Catalina:
The Great Crusade of Mercy - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CM-Reg.pdf

**I want to talk to you about My Mercy; I want to teach you Mercy; I want you to preach My Mercy. But in order to speak of it, you need to feel love because a person who does not love, cannot know Mercy.
  1. If you love, it is because I loved you first; just as I am Love. Whoever knows how to love remains in Me and I in him. My Father did not send Me as an offering for you to love Me, but because My Father is Love and I am one with My Father. Therefore, understand that nothing is sweeter than love, for it proceeds from the One who is the Creator of everything.
  2. And so, if you want to be merciful to your fellow human being, first you have to love and be compassionate to that person and if you want to receive Mercy, you must let yourself be loved. Mercy is the chain that unites with love, for one cannot love without being merciful. Understand that My love is without measure, it does not feel burdensome, nor does it value effort, it is simply given. You, on the other hand, are weak in love and imperfect in virtue; you are in need of My strength and of My comfort. **
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Jesus to Catalina:
The Great Crusade of Mercy - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CM-Reg.pdf

11) Mercy is love, My child. It is union with God and union with God is the certitude of victory and an everlasting abundance of virtues. Mercy is the unquestionable proof of love for Me.
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Jesus to St. Faustina -

"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy." (Diary, 300).

It is this kind of love -

http://s15.postimg.org/s9fu5lkbv/Crucifixion.jpg
Jesus to Catalina:
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**Contemplate My wounds and see if there is anyone who has suffered as much as I, to show their love…

Contemplate for a moment these bloodstained hands and feet… This naked body, covered with wounds, with urine, and blood. Dirty… This head punctured by sharp thorns, soaked in sweat, full of dust, and covered in Blood…

Contemplate your Jesus, hanging on the Cross, without being able to make the slightest movement… naked, without fame, without honor, without liberty…

Contemplate Me in the image of the Christ that weeps and bleeds. There and in this way the world has Me.**
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Jesus to Catalina:
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf

4) "…In this profound pain which causes My sight to grow darker to the point that I can no longer see clearly those beings which I love and who remain at the foot of My agony, I know that Love has conquered, that it will conquer forever.
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Jesus to Catalina:
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

**To redeem all of mankind, a child’s cry, a moan, a single tear of Mine would have been enough… Would you have understood My Love in the same way? If with so many great proofs you still take so long to accept it, what would have caused you to believe in My Love, if I had limited Myself to what seemed paltry? …

It is because of all this that you must believe in Love, principally, in My Love …

Only by going beyond the limit of “what is necessary” would many eyes be opened to My Love.**
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Please continue to next post -
 
And it is this kind of love -
Jesus to Catalina:
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf

The Last Supper was the moment of the greatest intimacy with My own. During that hour of love I instituted what in the eyes of mankind might be the greatest madness, to make Myself a prisoner of Love. I instituted the Eucharist. I wanted to remain with you until the end of time because My Love could not bear that you, whom I loved more than My Life, be left orphans…
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Jesus to Catalina:
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf

**17) “It is not the Tabernacles that are closed, but your hearts. For very few succeed in understanding how I, who am hidden and enclosed, have the freedom to reveal Myself, to make My living presence felt, there in the Host which every one of those Tabernacles encloses.
  1. “My Presence can be noticed if you have open minds, hearts and souls. Whoever comes to Me receives the proofs of My Eucharistic Presence, since I cause that marvelous miracle, precisely in order to approach you, welcome you, and console you who suffer from the life that is passing.”**
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Jesus to Catalina:
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**11) For love of souls, I remain a prisoner in the Holy Eucharist, so that in their sorrow and grief they are being consoled by the most tender of Hearts, by the best of Fathers, by the most loyal friend. But that Love, which is consumed for the good of mankind, is not going to be returned.
  1. I live amongst sinners to be their salvation and their life, their doctor and medicine; yet they, in return, in spite of their sick nature, distance themselves from Me. They offend Me and scorn Me.
  2. My children, poor sinners! Do not distance yourselves from Me. I wait for you night and day at the Tabernacle. I will not reproach you for your crimes; I will not throw your sins in your face. What I will do is to wash you with the Blood of My wounds. Do not be afraid; come to Me. You do not know how much I love you.
  3. And you, dear souls, why are you cold and indifferent to My love? I know you have to attend to the needs of your family, your home, and of the world that constantly demands of you. But, can it be that you do not have a moment to come and give Me proof of your love and gratitude? Do not allow yourselves to be carried away by so many useless worries; reserve a moment of your time to visit the Prisoner of Love. If your body is sick, can you not find a few minutes to seek the Doctor who must cure you? Come to He who can restore strength and health of the soul. Give alms of love to this Divine Beggar, who calls you, wants you, and waits for you.**
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Eucharistic Miracle of Poland, Sokólka, October 12, 2008

Sokólka, October 12, 2008 (Part 1) – (PDF: 1.41M)
Sokólka, October 12, 2008 (Part 2) – (PDF: 1.31M)
Sokólka, October 12, 2008 (Part 3) – (PDF: 1.41M)

And the Eucharistic Miracles of Argentina, Buenos Aires, 1992 - 1994 - 1996

(note: The scientific investigations into this Eucharistic Miracle were instigated by Pope Francis then known as the Argentina Archbishop Jorge Bergoglio).

Buenos Aires, 1992 - 1994 - 1996 (part 1) - (PDF: 1.46M)
Buenos Aires, 1992 - 1994 - 1996 (part 2) - (PDF: 1.42M)
Buenos Aires, 1992 - 1994 - 1996 (part 3) - (PDF: 1.25M)
Extract from the book linked in my signature 'Unseen by Ron Tesoriero and Lee Han':
No one can call the Hosts-to-Heart cases spiritual. They are 100% physical. But the fact that these transformations have all occurred in a Christian context cannot be avoided. And neither can the fact that they confirm the original and enduring doctrine of the ‘real presence’ of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world” John 6:51

If these words of Christ are true, these outrageously audacious, almost unthinkable words are true, these words uttered many thousands of times for thousands of years, every single day in every corner of the planet are true, that bread does become real flesh, then it certainly seems the height of folly to not soberly consider everything else this man had to say.
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God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
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