Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

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I take it you want to walk back the claim that “experiment is judge, jury and executioner”? As in the case with homosexuality and the DSM, “professional ethics” (or social pressure) appears to have won the day…
I think we crossed lines.

In science, “it doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are, if it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong” (Richard Feynman).

But that’s science, and while modern medicine is usually scientific, the medical profession is not a branch of science, it has different priorities and ethics.

Although as I understand it, the reason why homosexuality is not an illness is based purely and simply on scientific evidence.

Otherwise there’d be no reason why Republicanism shouldn’t be in the DSM. 😃
 
The word “rational” is kind of vague, if not loaded. Does that imply a logical process by which we take known correct premises and correctly apply laws of logic? Or does it mean that a person can think that way and it doesn’t necessarily means they are crazy or something. My apologies if it has been defined; I know little about philosophy so hopefully I’m catching some of this as I go. Amatuer alert! 😛

So here I’m kind of using it both ways, to suggest some permutations to consider:

Is it rational to believe God exists?

No, not based on “rational argument.” Faith by definition is confidence in what we cannot see. I take that to include measurable or otherwise subject to scientific discovery.

But through faith we can believe this – see “is it rational to believe God does not exist.”

Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”

Is it rational to believe God may exist?

Yes. There are plenty of “rational” reasons to at least suspect of the existence. Atheists will tell you this is not correct. But atheism is just as much a religion as any dogmatic religion. It rests on the axioms that certain things we know we cannot see, therefore must not exist.

Is it rational to believe God does not exist?

No, not on “rational argument.” As others have said, there is no evidence to prove non-existence of God. At some point there must be an assumption. (with a small ‘a’ 😉 )

But again, in “faith” a person can believe there is no God. Heb 11:1 works both ways.

Is it rational to believe God might not exist?

Yes. For the same reasons it’s rational to believe He may. Uncertainty can be described from either end.
 
Like the Eucharist.

The substance is what our faith tells us: it is God’s body and blood.

The accidents are what physics can observe: it is bread and wine.
 
It is irrational to believe in God, but we are often irrational animals.

I say it is irrational, as of course there is no proof that the God of Abraham exists, just as there is no proof that the various Gods of Hinduism exist…yet people still persist in their belief, despite a lack of tangible evidence.

I do not look down upon those who believe in God(s), but I do admit that when I come across someone who is highly educated, yet they still believe in God, I find it rather puzzling.
Then this should be extremely puzzling for you:

examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

What do they know or think that you don’t?
 
Rational is as rational does, and persons transcend rationality.
Meaning just about anything is acceptable for “persons?”

When is this “transcending” of rationality warranted or justified and when is it not?

Are you claiming that as long as it is a “person” who transcends rationality there is no problem with doing so? How would you know it is a “person” doing so and not that this “person” has merely gone off the rails and become dysfunctional? Must be some reasonable way to assess that, no?

The statement just seems an odd one to make. Kind of like saying your own personal rationality trumps the “rationality” of common parlance, therefore you, inocente, are justified in “transcending” the vulgar “rationality” of the masses with your own personal version simply because you have the dignity of being a “person.”

Of course, you would likely admit anyone who happens to agree with you to have a share in that dignity and also transcend the vulgar rationality of the masses, I would think. Meaning, dissenters are merely “rational” while you and your like-minded ilk share a superior and transcendent “knowledge.”

On the improbable possibility that you happen to admit that a “person” who disagrees with you on some points might also “transcend” rationality, the problem (at least for your claim) becomes how to arbitrate between two such “persons” who both transcend “rationality” without recourse to some “rational” means of doing so?

Apparently, merely claiming to transcend “rationality” does not, I suspect, make a point of view invulnerable to critique, as much as you would like it to. It does mean, however, that you would need to construct a non-rational basis for distinguishing between acceptable and not acceptable “personal” views. Assuming, of course, that the inocente view is not the de facto correct one. Just saying.

Otherwise, “persons transcend rationality” is polite code for, "I am right and no matter what reasons you come up with, if you disagree with my “person,” you are wrong.
 
No, it does not since God’s inability to make choices has to do with His eternal nature, not power.
Then how do you explain human freedom?

357 ** Being in the image of God** the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of **freely **giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.
 
Although as I understand it, the reason why homosexuality is not an illness is based purely and simply on scientific evidence.
This is a laughable claim - one that obviously conflicts with your claim that “…the medical profession is not a branch of science, it has different priorities and ethics.”

The reason homosexuality is not an illness is because the current “voice” among the community of psychologists who are responsible for making the change have arbitrarily decided that if a person self-attests to being happy and fulfilled, they are happy and fulfilled (Who are we, as a community of psychologists, to dispute such a “personal” claim, since it - ostensibly - transcends rational dispute?)

On a side note: your own intellectual heritage is obvious.

The problem here is the body of psychologists who have removed homosexuality from the DSM have forgotten or ignored one of the principal features of illnesses - that is their effect on the larger population. In other words, what is the effect of not treating homosexuality as an illness on humanity as a whole? What impact will this have for generations to come and on the ultimate well-being of the human species? There was no consideration of that point in the decision, correct? If there was, it was probably dismissed with: “We can’t know that and we won’t be bothered to find out, because who are we? Scientists? To quote an esteemed personage: ‘The medical profession is not a branch of science, it has different priorities and ethics.’

A similar perspective (the individual is prime) was taken with regard to legalizing abortion. It does not matter what the effects of the wholesale slaughter of human unborn are on humanity as a whole, so long as individual women have been given absolute rights to self-determine.

As a universal moral principle, this would have disastrous consequences. Imagine if I were to proclaim absolute “rights” to my own destiny to the point of denying that anyone or anything at any time (dependents, government, law, moral codes, etc., etc.,) can have any claims on me because my personal autonomy trumps any of those claims. That is basically the principle that has been enshrined - albeit in “bubble” form only with regard to the voiceless unborn at the moment - in the law. It does set a precedent - one which only absolute fools would agree with wholeheartedly, although those who tend towards that state see no problem with the precedent being set because they cannot see beyond the allowance “in this case.”
 
Then how do you explain human freedom?
Humans obviously are not eternal, i.e. we entirely exist within the flow of time and thus can only make choices.

I think the son has some aspect of His existence which is part of the flow of time, though the Thomists may crucify me for saying that.

😃
 
Is it rational to believe God exists?

No, not based on “rational argument.” Faith by definition is confidence in what we cannot see. I take that to include measurable or otherwise subject to scientific discovery.

But through faith we can believe this – see “is it rational to believe God does not exist.”

Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”
Not all belief is based only on faith. Some have belief that is also in part based on reason, fact and experience and thus belief can be rational though faith itself is not.
 
Homosexuality does not of itself result in suffering (although bullying will) or in any impairment, and so isn’t a mental illness.
Suffering is not a necessary criteria of mental disease. Sodomites will not tell you they are suffering. But so will many of the mental patients wandering about the halls of state hospitals. Some might even think they are deliriously happy.

Then again, some sodomites will tell you they are suffering when at last they realize they have damaged rectums or AIDS. Others will admit to suffering when they finally come to admit they have sinned against nature and want to stop, or don’t know how to stop.

The same applies to those who don’t believe it is rational to believe in God. Their self doubts haunt them, and they cannot refrain from visiting websites like Catholic Answers, where they work to reassure themselves that they have no reason to suffer, or where they hope to convert Catholics according to the principle that misery loves company.

See Pascal’s remark below.
 
Not to be critical here, but I do want to use my Catholic education and let you know that it helped me to be able to use grammar correctly. And to spell correctly.

Your post corrected: “Where something had -]it’s /-] its -]begining/-], beginning does not necessarily reflect upon where it is today.”
You’re actually criticizing my spelling and grammar?

I also have a Catholic education. Apparently it did me little good. 🤷
 
You’re actually criticizing my spelling and grammar?
Well, yeah. I typically ignore grammar and spelling errors, except when the irony is too egregious to ignore.

When you are pointing out how wrong something is, while making such grade-school prone errors, it’s obligatory to point out the irony.
I also have a Catholic education. Apparently it did me little good. 🤷
Besides apparently failing basic grammar and spelling, you clearly didn’t pay attention to your basic catechism either.

All we Catholics can say is:

 
Well, yeah. I typically ignore grammar and spelling errors, except when the irony is too egregious to ignore.

When you are pointing out how wrong something is, while making such grade-school prone errors, it’s obligatory to point out the irony.

Besides apparently failing basic grammar and spelling, you clearly didn’t pay attention to your basic catechism either.

All we Catholics can say is:
How kind and charitable of you to suggest I failed basic grammar and spelling lessons.

Is there anything else about me that you would like to mock or ridicule?

There’s nothing even remotely ironic about spelling or grammatical errors when discussing the irrationality of believing in a supernatural God.

It would be ironic if I was acting irrationally while discussing the irrationality of belief.

😃
 
How kind and charitable of you to suggest I failed basic grammar and spelling lessons.
I am only going by the evidence which you provided.
Is there anything else about me that you would like to mock or ridicule?
I would like to point out your errors in your posts. You have been duped into believing a lot of untenable positions. I am astonished that you could be so uninformed about Catholicism and science.

I suggest you start with this very basic Wiki page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

And then move up to this magnificent encyclical on Faith and Reason by Pope JP2.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Be informed about the faith in which you were educated in, before you make such astonishingly ignorant propositions.
 
I am only going by the evidence which you provided.

I would like to point out your errors in your posts. You have been duped into believing a lot of untenable positions. I am astonished that you could be so uninformed about Catholicism and science.

I suggest you start with this very basic Wiki page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

And then move up to this magnificent encyclical on Faith and Reason by Pope JP2.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Be informed about the faith in which you were educated in, before you make such astonishingly ignorant propositions.
If you were having a real life conversation with someone about this very subject, would you have pounced upon any grammatical errors they made while speaking?

Would you then have articulated that you were of the opinion that they must have failed grammar and spelling while in Catholic school?

Would you do that? If no, why do it online?

If yes, what’s wrong with you?
 
If you were having a real life conversation with someone about this very subject, would you have pounced upon any grammatical errors they made while speaking?

Would you then have articulated that you were of the opinion that they must have failed grammar and spelling while in Catholic school?

Would you do that? If no, why do it online?

If yes, what’s wrong with you?
Look, 987, I am sorry that you cannot move on from my correction and learn from your mistake.

2 points I think you should take away from this conversation:

-if you are going to present a position here, in front of knowledgeable Catholics, you need to present it in an intelligent manner. It will give you some credibility.

-before you criticize the Catholic faith, here on a Catholic forum, best to be a bit better informed about Catholicism.

Now, if you want to present some arguments as to why it’s irrational to believe God exists, let’s hear them.

And if you don’t have any arguments at the moment, then perhaps you can read these 20 arguments for God’s existence and tell us where you believe they are wrong:

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
 
I’m not moving on because you’re ignoring the fact that you were rude while expressing your thoughts.

I’ve the feeling that you wouldn’t treat someone like that in person, but for some reason you believe you it’s perfectly OK to smugly mock someone online.

I know you’re not going to apologize for making fun of me, so I’ll just move on now.

All those arguments for Gods existence you provided, not a single one of them proves that it is the God of Abraham who is real, as opposed to the Gods of Sikhism or Hinduism.

You and I both know that you believe on faith that God is real.

Argument from miracles? Every religion claims to have miracles.

Argument from religious experience? That applies to every religion.

The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God? That could apply to the origin of the idea of a purple alien named Frenzo.

Every argument on that page has been refuted and destroyed many times over. A simple google search will present all the rebuttals.

Here we still are, you can no more prove that your God is real, just as a Hindu cannot prove that his Gods are real.
 
I’m not moving on because you’re ignoring the fact that you were rude while expressing your thoughts.

I’ve the feeling that you wouldn’t treat someone like that in person, but for some reason you believe you it’s perfectly OK to smugly mock someone online.

I know you’re not going to apologize for making fun of me, so I’ll just move on now.
I apologize for making fun of you!
All those arguments for Gods existence you provided, not a single one of them proves that it is the God of Abraham who is real, as opposed to the Gods of Sikhism or Hinduism.
No one has posited that it is the God of Abraham that is true, from “all those arguments”.

That’s the next step, once you acknowledge that one can come to a belief in a God (known as the God of the Philosophers).
You and I both know that you believe on faith that God is real.
This is a heresy you should have learned about in your Catholic education. It is called Fideism, 987, and the Catholic Church rejects it.

sigh! Would that you had paid attention in your theology classes.
 
I never said ’ faith alone’.

You cannot point to any tangible or objective evidence that proves your God is real.

You have faith that your God is real.

Until someone can prove that your God is real, I will continue to believe he isn’t real.
 
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