Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

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“Never actually happened” is a pretty strong claim given that your source only admits the “consensus of modern scholars” is that the archeological evidence to establish historicity is not available to us today. That does not, logically speaking, entail “never actually happened” except, perhaps, by the same magical incantation that could also effectively turn a toad into a prince.

“Can’t prove by archeological evidence” does not equal “never happened” especially since the archeological evidence doesn’t prove it “never happened.”
I guess that’s the impression you’d get if you only read the first half of the first sentence of the article.
Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel’s emergence.
But you see the “not relevant” part implies that they have more realistic explanations. What might those be?
A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel’s Canaanite origins. The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the “Israelite” villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones
So basically all the evidence says that the Israelites gradually split from the Canaanites. Information about the Exodus isn’t relevant to the origins of the Israelites because it’s completely a-historical.

Basically, the argument is not “archaeology can’t prove it so it didn’t happen” the argument is “archaeological evidence tells a completely different story.” Like the biblical flood, the Exodus doesn’t fill in some details that archaeology misses, the Exodus contradicts the evidence.
 
hello japaneseKappa.
Except the Exodus never actually happened as described in the bible. Why should made up histories and prophecies constitute evidence?.
You were there? You know what reeeeeealllllly happened? Oh please tell!

If you have a problem with the Bible, quit reading it and giving persons who do read theirs a hard time. Find a better hobby. Or give up and convert! We’d love to have you with all your smarts. You could sing in the Choir on Sundays. Now doesn’t that sound much nicer? Be honest. :rolleyes:

Glenda
 
You were there? You know what reeeeeealllllly happened? Oh please tell!

If you have a problem with the Bible, quit reading it and giving persons who do read theirs a hard time. Find a better hobby. Or give up and convert! We’d love to have you with all your smarts. You could sing in the Choir on Sundays. Now doesn’t that sound much nicer? Be honest. :rolleyes:
It’s possible the Exodus actually happened and all the archaeological evidence that seems to contradict it is being misinterpreted. Its possible the young earth creationists are right about the age of the earth and all the evidence to the contrary is being misinterpreted.

Unfortunately, neither scenario is very likely. I am therefore quite comfortable saying that the YECs are wrong about the age of the earth, and the Exodus is wrong about the early Israelites. This isn’t some wishful thinking, I don’t really care if the Exodus story is more myth than history or more history than myth. The point is that the evidence in both cases is stacked against the literal historical reading of the bible, and see no reason to deny the evidence, religious people’s sensibilities notwithstanding.
 
Unfortunately, neither scenario is very likely. I am therefore quite comfortable saying that the YECs are wrong about the age of the earth, and the Exodus is wrong about the early Israelites. This isn’t some wishful thinking, I don’t really care if the Exodus story is more myth than history or more history than myth. The point is that the evidence in both cases is stacked against the literal historical reading of the bible, and see no reason to deny the evidence, religious people’s sensibilities notwithstanding.
Your insinuations are not so subtle and need to be answered as boldly as you make them.

So it’s all invention? The authors of the Old Testament were all liars who whipped together a fantastic story for gullible fools like us?

Yes, we are familiar with that strategy. It has been around for a long time. People deny the historical evidence for even the existence of Jesus. St. Paul and the Gospels are another pack of lies for gullible fools like us?

But there is no end to the devil’s lies, because, as Jesus said, he is the Father of Lies. Satan will even be glad to deny that he exists … all the more effectively to fool, by working in the shadows, those who wish to be fooled. 🤷
 
Your insinuations are not so subtle and need to be answered as boldly as you make them.

So it’s all invention? The authors of the Old Testament were all liars who whipped together a fantastic story for gullible fools like us?
I think the thousand-odd year gap between the alleged Exodus and Jesus is a sufficient reason for saying that the historicity of Jesus is an entirely separate question.

I don’t read any malice into old testament authors, the same wikipedia page I linked:
While significant portions of the story told in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy were never intended to be historiographic, the overall intent was historical according to the understanding of the ancient writers: to demonstrate God’s actions in history, to recall Israel’s bondage and salvation, and to demonstrate the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant.
The opinion of the overwhelming majority of modern biblical scholars is that the Pentateuch as we know it was shaped into its final form in the post-Exilic period, although the traditions behind the narrative are older and can be traced in the writings of the 8th century prophets. How far beyond that the tradition might stretch cannot be told: “Presumably an original Exodus story lies hidden somewhere inside all the later revisions and alterations, but centuries of transmission have long obscured its presence, and its substance, accuracy and date are now difficult to determine.”
There doesn’t need to be malice at all. The ancient people did the best they could with what they had, but historical and scientific accuracy were not things that they had.
 
. . . The ancient people did the best they could with what they had, but historical and scientific accuracy were not things that they had.
I don’t know how you can expect to be taken seriously.
You in your ignorance of the Divine, would dare even try to compare yourself to the writers of scripture, let alone comment that they did the best they could.
You have no idea!
 
Reminder:

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks
 
I guess that’s the impression you’d get if you only read the first half of the first sentence of the article.

But you see the “not relevant” part implies that they have more realistic explanations. What might those be?
So basically all the evidence says that the Israelites gradually split from the Canaanites. Information about the Exodus isn’t relevant to the origins of the Israelites because it’s completely a-historical.

Basically, the argument is not “archaeology can’t prove it so it didn’t happen” the argument is “archaeological evidence tells a completely different story.” Like the biblical flood, the Exodus doesn’t fill in some details that archaeology misses, the Exodus contradicts the evidence.
“A completely different story” based upon what exactly? There are similar cultural artifacts among the shards of pottery, layout of the towns, carvings of idols, etc.?

How do those “tell a completely different story” when there is nothing in the Exodus account that denies or contradicts the tendency of Israel to do things “like the Canaanites?” In fact, one dominant Old Testament theme is about Israel “playing the harlot” and doing precisely that.

Pick a piece of evidence that incontrovertibly demonstrates Exodus could not have happened and argue that. Absence of artifacts when the artifact remnants are few and not very helpful in making a determination is not much of a case except for those who want to create an alternative narrative and see it their way. The points you insist are important aren’t very significant if hard evidence is the criteria.
 
“A completely different story” based upon what exactly? There are similar cultural artifacts among the shards of pottery, layout of the towns, carvings of idols, etc.?

How do those “tell a completely different story” when there is nothing in the Exodus account that denies or contradicts the tendency of Israel to do things “like the Canaanites?” In fact, one dominant Old Testament theme is about Israel “playing the harlot” and doing precisely that.

Pick a piece of evidence that incontrovertibly demonstrates Exodus could not have happened and argue that. Absence of artifacts when the artifact remnants are few and not very helpful in making a determination is not much of a case except for those who want to create an alternative narrative and see it their way. The points you insist are important aren’t very significant if hard evidence is the criteria.
It seems that you think there are only two possible states for the evidence to be in: either there is no evidence against the Exodus, or there is incontrovertible evidence against it. This position doesn’t make much sense. I am simply arguing that the evidence, when taken in its entirety, makes me completely comfortable in saying that the Exodus never happened. Lets have a quick summary:

The problems with the Exodus narrative itself are:
-Numerous anacronisms (political concerns which don’t make sense for the time, etc)
-Logistically absurd (the desert couldn’t host them, they would make a caravan 150 miles long, etc)
-Various numbers and dates appear to be introduced for their religious, rather than historical, significance

The archaeological evidence reveals:
-There is no date range that can be squared with the biblical account
-The Israelites are alleged to have visited cities that didn’t exist in their time
-The Israelites are alleged to have destroyed cities that don’t have destruction layers at that time
-There was no sudden arrival of a large conquesting group of Israelites into Canaan, the Israelites gradually split from the Canaanites

Absence of evidence is sometimes evidence of absence, specifically when experts have been diligently looking for that evidence for a very long time. However, that is a somewhat weak argument, so I don’t expect these absences to be convincing. Taken with the other evidence though, they are a sort of icing on the cake:
-No evidence Egypt suddenly lost over half its population and had its army destroyed
-No evidence of major migrations through the desert

You can certainly go through and do some mental gymnastics to explain and rectify these problems, but I think the conclusion is pretty clear. The likelihood that all of these problems are misunderstandings, or that we’re just missing some vital bit of information that would explain it all seems much much lower than the likelihood that the Exodus is simply a myth. So much lower, in fact, that I am perfectly comfortable stating that the Exodus never happened.
 
Even if Aquinas’ a posteriori observations are reasonable, the best he can do is hypothesize that God exists.
The arguments are deductive. If the premises are true, the conclusion follows necessarily, even if it requires (very simple and obvious) empirical observation to get off the ground. A hypothesis essentially being a prediction, you seem to be committing a category error, since God is not subject to prediction, especially not prediction via the Five Ways. Any stronger definition of prediction might possibly get around my point, but then it would make calling it a “hypothesis” rather trivial.
Early scientists could look around and say:
“Hey! In all this work we’ve done, there is this quantity called energy that has always been conserved.”
That would be a great observation, but they can’t just jump to the conclusion that the conservation of energy is a law of the universe. They can only hypothesize that there is a law of conservation of energy, and they have to set up tests that will specifically measure under what circumstances energy is conserved. This is exactly what they did; there are tests for the conservation of energy.
If Aquinas was making the relevant assumptions (or more analagously, improperly jumping to conclusions), then I think this point would have force. However, Aquinas didn’t say:
  1. Change exists.

    Therefore, God exists.
    Rather, he set out an argument (not an experiment or empirical observation) saying “Given this empirical observation (change) and these (argued for) metaphysical principles (impossibility of an infinitely long per se causal series and the Thomistic principle of causality, pure actuality (i.e. God) exists.” [proceeds to spend the next few hundred pages arguing for the divine attributes]
Unfortunately, I have never seen any rigorous tests for either Thomas’s a posteriori observations, or his conclusions.
If you need to test for things like change and contingency (there are philosophical arguments vis-a-vis change and contingency, just using a couple examples), methinks that your skepticism is either all-engulfing or inconsistently applied.

Does this not reek of scientism to you (whether it be of your typical New Atheist variety or a more refined yet still wrong Ladyman/Ross/Rosenberg variety)?
 
When he to whom one speaks does not understand, and he who speaks himself does not understand, that is metaphysics.
Voltaire
 
It seems that you think there are only two possible states for the evidence to be in: either there is no evidence against the Exodus, or there is incontrovertible evidence against it. This position doesn’t make much sense. I am simply arguing that the evidence, when taken in its entirety, makes me completely comfortable in saying that the Exodus never happened. Lets have a quick summary:

The problems with the Exodus narrative itself are:
-Numerous anacronisms (political concerns which don’t make sense for the time, etc)
-Logistically absurd (the desert couldn’t host them, they would make a caravan 150 miles long, etc)
-Various numbers and dates appear to be introduced for their religious, rather than historical, significance

The archaeological evidence reveals:
-There is no date range that can be squared with the biblical account
-The Israelites are alleged to have visited cities that didn’t exist in their time
-The Israelites are alleged to have destroyed cities that don’t have destruction layers at that time
-There was no sudden arrival of a large conquesting group of Israelites into Canaan, the Israelites gradually split from the Canaanites

Absence of evidence is sometimes evidence of absence, specifically when experts have been diligently looking for that evidence for a very long time. However, that is a somewhat weak argument, so I don’t expect these absences to be convincing. Taken with the other evidence though, they are a sort of icing on the cake:
-No evidence Egypt suddenly lost over half its population and had its army destroyed
-No evidence of major migrations through the desert

You can certainly go through and do some mental gymnastics to explain and rectify these problems, but I think the conclusion is pretty clear. The likelihood that all of these problems are misunderstandings, or that we’re just missing some vital bit of information that would explain it all seems much much lower than the likelihood that the Exodus is simply a myth. So much lower, in fact, that I am perfectly comfortable stating that the Exodus never happened.
Depends on who you read.
christianitytoday.com/ct/1998/september7/8ta044.html?start=1
biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/10/19/Recent-Research-on-the-Date-and-Setting-of-the-Exodus.aspx#Article
biblearchaeology.org/category/Conquest-of-Canaan.aspx
biblearchaeology.org/category/Exodus-from-Egypt.aspx
biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/07/08/Egyptian-Domination-of-Canaan-during-JoshuaJudges.aspx
biblearchaeology.org/post/2014/01/20/Major-Artifact-Confirms-Biblical-Account.aspx#Article
biblearchaeology.org/category/Patriarchal-Era.aspx
biblearchaeology.org/post/2014/02/17/The-Date-of-Camel-Domestication-in-the-Ancient-Near-East.aspx
 
Except the Exodus never actually happened as described in the bible. Why should made up histories and prophecies constitute evidence?
This is part of the written, historical record going back 3300 years. Passover has been commemorated annually for that long by Jews, including Jesus Christ, and for 2000 years by Christians in the Mass…Jesus is the new passover lamb…the Lamb of God…the suffering servant prophesied by Isaiah (Is 53). So the people who saw these events with their own eyes and took the trouble to write them down so their descendants would know what happened (and we do know what happened…we know exactly what happened thanks to the written record). Isaiah prophesied 700 years before Jesus Christ BTW. And people (who didn’t experience it with their own eyes) come along 3300 years later and just dismiss the history and tradition. You could do that with any part of history. That makes you a-historical. God Bless.
 
And the strength of evidence for an “old” earth depends on who you read.
answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/the-10-best-evidences-from-science-that-confirm-a-young-earth/
answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/defensescientific-arguments/

I know that there are people who disagree, and the ones you have found have motivations as clear and explicit as those of the Answers in Genesis folks. I don’t see anything in those articles other than a large edifice built on wishful thinking and a heavy reliance on the work of B. G. Wood.

Associates for Biblical Research:
We hope our readers will clearly see that the Bible is trustworthy, and Christians should know that the assertions of the minimalists and skeptics are fraught with… anti-Biblical philosophical presuppositions.
This is not an intellectually honest approach to evaluating biblical claims.
 
And the strength of evidence for an “old” earth depends on who you read.
answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/the-10-best-evidences-from-science-that-confirm-a-young-earth/
answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/defensescientific-arguments/

I know that there are people who disagree, and the ones you have found have motivations as clear and explicit as those of the Answers in Genesis folks. I don’t see anything in those articles other than a large edifice built on wishful thinking and a heavy reliance on the work of B. G. Wood.

Associates for Biblical Research:

This is not an intellectually honest approach to evaluating biblical claims.
No less honest than the editors of the Wikipedia article you cited, some of whom clearly have strong emotional bias by calling opposing points of view “bull----” and edit out relevant contributions based on their own bias which stands merely because it is a current majority view - “secular” filters applied.

Also notice that you resort to an ad hominem to “dismiss” what ABR has to say rather than dealing specifically with their points.

In fact, they are “intellectually honest” precisely because they come right out and admit their perspective, but do not rely on it to make their arguments. Their articles and arguments stand on their own - a fact you seem to have glossed over in your readiness to wave away the points the authors make merely because they are apologetic with regard to Christianity.

That alone does not make them dishonest or errant. They could be both honest and correct AND still defend their perspective BECAUSE they believe it to be true.

Merely because academia tends towards “secularism” does not make it the default correct view. There is a difference between neutrality and secularism. In fact, in (falsely) insisting that ABR is dishonest MERELY BECAUSE they take a Christian perspective, without any actual attempt to show error in their work, demonstrates (based on your own line of thought) that you have a biased perspective the other way, i.e. you are assuming that Christianity is de facto incorrect, and, therefore, anyone who takes that perspective must be intellectually dishonest. A presumption - parading as neutrality - that atheistic materialism is true, by default.
 
And the strength of evidence for an “old” earth depends on who you read.
answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/the-10-best-evidences-from-science-that-confirm-a-young-earth/
answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/defensescientific-arguments/

I know that there are people who disagree, and the ones you have found have motivations as clear and explicit as those of the Answers in Genesis folks. I don’t see anything in those articles other than a large edifice built on wishful thinking and a heavy reliance on the work of B. G. Wood.

Associates for Biblical Research:

This is not an intellectually honest approach to evaluating biblical claims.
Guilt by association?

Answers in Genesis are avowed (clear and explicit) Christians and wishful thinkers.

Associates for Biblical Research are avowed (clear and explicit) Christians, therefore they are wishful thinkers.

A fallacy, yes?
 
The arguments are deductive. If the premises are true, the conclusion follows necessarily, even if it requires (very simple and obvious) empirical observation to get off the ground. A hypothesis essentially being a prediction, you seem to be committing a category error, since God is not subject to prediction, especially not prediction via the Five Ways. Any stronger definition of prediction might possibly get around my point, but then it would make calling it a “hypothesis” rather trivial.

If Aquinas was making the relevant assumptions (or more analagously, improperly jumping to conclusions), then I think this point would have force. However, Aquinas didn’t say:
  1. Change exists.

    Therefore, God exists.
    Rather, he set out an argument (not an experiment or empirical observation) saying “Given this empirical observation (change) and these (argued for) metaphysical principles (impossibility of an infinitely long per se causal series and the Thomistic principle of causality, pure actuality (i.e. God) exists.” [proceeds to spend the next few hundred pages arguing for the divine attributes]
If you need to test for things like change and contingency (there are philosophical arguments vis-a-vis change and contingency, just using a couple examples), methinks that your skepticism is either all-engulfing or inconsistently applied.

Does this not reek of scientism to you (whether it be of your typical New Atheist variety or a more refined yet still wrong Ladyman/Ross/Rosenberg variety)?
Great points. It is a fundamental principle of Newtonian mechanics that “objects at rest stay at rest unless a force acts to put them in motion.” Rocket scientists make their living off this principle. St Thomas made use of this same principle well before Newton. God Bless.
 
To be totally blunt and honest, without sounding Blasphemous,

No, it’s not really rational.

Is it rational to believe that Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Tooth fairy exist?

To young, innocent children/people anything is possible.

To Believe is to Have Faith. To have Faith is to Believe.

I want to believe and do believe in God with all my heart. I hope he forgives me and that I can someday see my love ones who have passed on.

The scariest thing is that none of us will know for sure until we die.

Pray and Love one another. ALl you need is love.
 
To be totally blunt and honest, without sounding Blasphemous,

No, it’s not really rational.

Is it rational to believe that Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Tooth fairy exist?

To young, innocent children/people anything is possible.

To Believe is to Have Faith. To have Faith is to Believe.

I want to believe and do believe in God with all my heart. I hope he forgives me and that I can someday see my love ones who have passed on.

The scariest thing is that none of us will know for sure until we die.

Pray and Love one another. ALl you need is love.
It is not necessary to posit Santa Claus as the reason gifts show up under your tree at Christmas. Neither is it necessary to posit a tooth fairy as the reason money appears under your pillow after losing a tooth.

However, the “reasons” to believe in Santa Claus or the Toothfairy are not anything like the reasons for thinking the causal order of the universe requires a sufficient and explicable justification or that human self-awareness or ethical behaviour must have a transcendent explanation to make any sense at all.

Sorry, there is absolutely no parallel or symmetry between the existence of God and the existence of the Toothfairy or Santa Claus. Anyone who thinks there is - present company obviously excepted - just doesn’t understand what the word “reasonable” signifies.

We have far fewer “reasons” to believe that Santa Claus (understood as jolly guy in red suit driving a team of reindeer) exists than we do for positing that Actus Purus or Ipsum Esse Subsistens are necessary to adequately explain what and how we know or why anything exists at all. Your examples do not even come close to being similar - in fact, there is an infinite chasm that separates them.
 
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