Is it Right for the Catholic Church to fund groups that attack the American Way of Life?

[Bullfighter]

I am not helping anyone invade. I’ll ask you a question: if the law changed tomorrow, and somehow, the legal immigration process was speeded up to a day, would the immigrants still be invaders?

Besides. I don’t think fighting to help immigrants is betraying veterans. It certainly isn’t a betrayal of my ancestors in the Irish Brigade.

That’s a misrepresentation of history. The soldiers of the Vietnam generation were not treated as well as they should have been, and that’s a national tragedy, and it seems like the government is letting down this batch of soldiers by not properly running the VA or the veteran’s hospitals, but soldiers of both World Wars, the Spanish-American War, and the Civil War received their respect and fair treatment.

They have no excuse for not fighting as allies in any of the wars of the 20th century? At the time of WWI, the country was poor and in a virtual state of anarchy. There was no Central Government to send troops over, and no reason for them to in the first place. They had no shipping going into England, mainly because they weren’t exporting anything, and really had no connection to any of the powers involved in the war (except maybe the French, but after Maximillian, they weren’t about to rush to France’s aid!).

Also, you’re misinformed about the Mexicans in WWII. The Mexicans joined the war on the Allied side in May of 1942, eventually sending 15,000 soldiers overseas, including an airborne battalion that fought in the Pacific. Also, at the request of the United States, the Mexican government filled a labor shortage in the Southwest by dispatching 300,000 government workers to work the fields and factories of New Mexico and Texas. All this at the same time that they were battling an astronomically high illiteracy rate, election fraud and election-day violence, trying to break up the large plantations assembled under corrupt prior governments, and dealing with a depression.

Learn some history before you declare your contempt for Mexico. Regardless, why is a Mexican born today responsible for any of that? You still refuse to answer that question.

At the time of WWII,

The is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. The Mexicans never sent troops to ANY theatre of operations in WW2. Sorry Pal. Your BS level is through the roof.

I never mention the plot that Germany was trying to hatch with Mexico to invade the US during WW1 because it WAS far fetched but I guess you didn’t want to bring up the Zimmermann telegram because that might make you buddies look bad. Every High School student should know that one but I guess they teach a politically correct version now. When the Mexicans become a majority in this country, they will be the ones who have one the war single handedly.

Your confusing 25,000 Brazilian troops that were sent to the Italian campaign during WW2.

And you don’t know a thing about how WW2 soldiers were cheated. My father was denied the GI Bill after serving 4 years of his life in the Army. He was supposed to get a 4-5 stipend to live on while he went to school. A few months into the program he received a lettle demanding that he pay all the money back or he would be jailed. No one would help him so he had to live off of what he could. DON’T TELL ME ABOUT WARS AND ABOUT JUSTICE.

When Ken Burns was filming his documentary “The War”, he was forced to include all different variations of nationalities just to keep the natives happy. But when he was on Charlie Rose talking about the pressure he was receiving from Latino groups to include them, he said he had to restructure the whole program. He admitted that he had to do it because PBS is his biggest client. But he did say that those groups played a minor role as their just weren’t that many Mexican-Americans in the service. The majority of soldiers were white, with the next largest race being black.

The only contribution of Mexicans was picking crops in the US then belly aching about wanting Social Security benefits years after the war.

You might be confusing Puerto Ricans with Mexicans which I would never do. The Puerto Rican soldiers played a vital role in every war of the 20th century that involved the United States. They earned the right to be here.

No matter how much aid we ever dumped into Mexico, it was never enough for them. It’s time to cut the cord.

 

[PaulinVA]

I’m not generally one to call people out but I get tired of people simply trying to win arguments on tho site. Be honest. Was this an admission that you changed your argument in midstream? If not, it seems a bit ironic that you are using the phrase I used to change the subject (let’s be honest).

No, I haven’t changed my views this evening, so it must be that I mistyped or phased something in a way that made my views confusing.

I consider myself an immigrant. My grandfather came from Ireland. My wife’s grandparents came from Italy. Immigrant? Immigrant Stock? Doesn’t matter. My people are not native here. I sort of thought other people feel the same way, but apparently not.

I purposely used your phrase to redirect the conversation to the real subject of the original post.

 

[pentecostbaby]

For the record:

I live in the South. Down here, the government only enforces immigration laws when they have to. This isn’t because of any altruism.

It’s because large land owners, who own large farms (read: plantations) staff their plantations with illegal Mexican labor. In some cases, they staff them with “legal” labor. These people are housed, in many cases, in concrete bunkers, far off main roads. They have little to no electricity (read: no air conditioning in the summer in the South), little to no sanitation, and NO WAY of getting out unless the land owners “let them”. Abuse is common. Legal workers often have their passports taken, and are therefore kept as virtual prisoners. They can’t leave.

Sounds like slavery to me. The skin tone’s changed, but not much else. And before you say I’m making this up, one of my very dear friends works for Legal Aid. He’s been run off the road, threatened, and harassed by these plantation owners.

We need justice for these people, and we need it now. The Church has a moral obligation to fight for them.

 

[PaulinVA]

We need justice for these people, and we need it now. The Church has a moral obligation to fight for them.

 

[Redbandito]

Dori I agree with pretty much all you said. Four quick points though. 1) A good end does not justify an evil means. In other words you don’t get to break the law simply because you are not content with your standard of living. I’m certain you would agree with that. 2) There are many poor people in this world who would appreciate the ability to immigrate (legally) to this country. I see no justice in some folks seizing it simply because they happen to share a border while others “wait in line.” 3) while I am certain there are many illegal immigrants with great work ethics, it is beside the point. Sob stories aside, the question is one of a violation of the law. We should certainly demand reform to allow for more legal immigration , but it is problematic when choose to ignore the rule of law and circumvent the system. Those doing so are contributing to the climate that encourages illegals to violate the law and get trapped in the very situations you are speaking to. 4) Finally, I would add that the story of the woman you mentioned is one of my biggest fears. How many folks with highly infectious, and sometimes untreatable, diseases (i.e. xtb) are pouring over the
borders every day without diagnosis or treatment? Everyone talks about the dignity of the immigrant, but what about the dignity of those already residing in that country? Part of the naturalization process is to be screened for these diseases so as not to endanger the lives of our kids. Along with this is a criminal background check (significant due to the disproptionately high number of immigrants in our criminal justice system). Beyond that those who would immigrate are charged with learning the language, traditions, history, and laws of this country. This benefits both the individual immigrant and society as a whole. In closing, I am all for expanding the amount of people we take into this country annually, but I am also for much harsher penalties on those who would violate the immigration laws (both immigrant and employer).

 

[Redbandito]

Dori 1, Paul, Lujack, thanks for the great posts.

Bullfighter, I’ll add again what I’ve said to you previously.

The Catholic Church was virtually banned by national law for about 100 yrs in Mexico. In easing the path for Mexicans to become citizens in the USA, we are allowing them a freedom of worship that was NOT allowed in Mexico until the 1990s. That any remained Catholic while under such repression seems miraculous. (For example, the Catholic Church would not find it necessary to provide Mass in Spanish in the States if no one attended it.)

It’s illegal to be catholic in china, north Korea, and many Arab states. Are they just unlucky because they don’t happen to share our border? Or would you advocate a half a billion immigrants claim political asylum on the basis of religious freedom? Just curious where you planned to take this argument.

 

[Bullfighter]

Maybe a more balanced approach would be appropriate, Bullfighter. My son serves in the USMC…no excuses here. But I am a physician in the state of Calfornia (a more border issue intensive state you would have difficulty finding). I know a very large number of illegal and legal immigrants from Asian and Central and South American countries. I can tell you that my patients from Mexico have been some of the most upright, hard working, honest, salt-of-the-earth people you will ever meet. Most did not have anything to do with any “party” of overpopulation…they are victims of corrupt government and are escaping to try to find a better life. They do it illegally because it is so difficult, and such a long process, to do it legally that many will have no hope of achieving any kind of life if they wait it out., even if they could come up with the enormous bankroll required.
Dori

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Let me tell you my story of being denied benefits because of a hispanic hospital supervisor who apparently loves to give away services to people who can’t speak a word of English then jumps all over people who can. This man was transfered because he had a history of doing this to most Americans he would encounter. But since he is hispanic, they didn’t dare fire him.

As far as overpopulating Mexico, how do you explain a 1950 population of 27,741,000 that would jump to 104,266,000 in 2005? How would you explain a 1950 life expectancy of 50 years jumping to 75 years in that time if they are so poor. Your story does not give credit to decades of aid to Mexico by America. The United Nations rates Mexico 52 out of 177 countries for Human Development.

I’ve known Mexicans who couldn’t trust their own people. Those people are entering this country and destroying it. You are right about gangs being product of the people entering though. Every one of the gang members here are “paper Americans”. They hang out on porches from dawn to dusk to dawn. They are the future evil that awaits the American children who aren’t prepared for them.

I knew a man who was in the Polish Army during WW2. He escaped from a prisoner of war camp and made his way through France. He talked about those from Vichy France, the people who collaborated with the Nazis and those people he could not trust. Then he talked about going north to Occupied France where there were patriots who fought the Nazis and those people he could trust. He eventually made it to England.

Years later in America, he held a prejudice for Germans. Even those who were never in Europe during the war. I would never have told him how to feel the way people are telling me how to feel. I had greater respect for him.

You experience in California gives you the false idea that the countries south of the border are filled with the greatest of human misery when, in fact, it is Africa that beats Latin America hand down for that title. You keep seeing the same race over and over so you would jump to that conclusion.

Before you give any poor people a martyr like quality remember this: No one can corrupt you without your permission. No one. Don’t make excuses for anyone. Our educational system has tried to make the American feel guilty for every sin imaginable. I didn’t enslave any blacks or American Indians and I refuse to feel guilty about them.

Try asking a Mexican if he or she feels guilty about not fighting to free 6 million Jews in WW2. That usually shuts them up.

PS. I had to remove part of your message to post this because of it’s length.

 

[Redbandito]

Dori 1, Paul, Lujack, thanks for the great posts.

Bullfighter, I’ll add again what I’ve said to you previously.

The Catholic Church was virtually banned by national law for about 100 yrs in Mexico. In easing the path for Mexicans to become citizens in the USA, we are allowing them a freedom of worship that was NOT allowed in Mexico until the 1990s. That any remained Catholic while under such repression seems miraculous. (For example, the Catholic Church would not find it necessary to provide Mass in Spanish in the States if no one attended it.)

No, I haven’t changed my views this evening, so it must be that I mistyped or phased something in a way that made my views confusing. I consider myself an immigrant. My grandfather came from Ireland. My wife’s grandparents came from Italy. Immigrant? Immigrant Stock? Doesn’t matter. My people are not native here. I sort of thought other people feel the same way, but apparently not.

I purposely used your phrase to redirect the conversation to the real subject of the original post.

Fair enough.

 

[Bullfighter]

It’s illegal to be catholic in china, north Korea, and many Arab states. Are they just unlucky because they don’t happen to share our border? Or would Gould adocate a half a billion immigrants claim political asylum on the basis of religious freedom? Just curious where you planned to take this argument.

Again, they are less than 2% of the population of the world. I think they reached their legitamate limit in this country years ago. Is it time to get people from a different neighborhood? Isn’t that diversity?

 

[taylorc]

I think we need more French and Italians here. They bring there good food and are nice to look at(well a lot of the men are).

 

[catharina]

It’s illegal to be catholic in china, north Korea, and many Arab states. Are they just unlucky because they don’t happen to share our border? Or would Gould adocate a half a billion immigrants claim political asylum on the basis of religious freedom? Just curious where you planned to take this argument.

The argument has already been clearly demonstrated. When China and Vietnam fell to communism, countless Chinese and Vietnamese who were/are Catholic found refuge in the United States - although many (if not most) had to enter the country illegally. Issue now: how can they leave their countries today?

As for luck? What does God have to do with luck?

Also, who is Gould?

Also, re prior post of yours, who considers Myasthenia Gravis a infectious disease?

 

[Bullfighter]

I am certainly trying to be charitable, but are you ignorant of American history? There are two groups from the founding of our country. Those that sailed from Europe and those that met them here. In general, if you do not trace your lineage to a native american tribe, you are either a former slave or an immigrant.

Just because you were born in America does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Just because your family has been here for generations does not mean you are not of immigrant stock. Our families all immigrated to this country (or were dragged here in chains). To deny this is to deny your very own person history.

My grandparents were immigrants. But this country was founded by settlers. The settler is not an immigrant. Christopher Columbus was not an immigrant. The original colonists were not immigrants.

By the way, how did the Indians get here.

 

[Bullfighter]

I think we need more French and Italians here. They bring there good food and are nice to look at(well a lot of the men are).

Oui!

Bon chance!

 

[system]

Christopher Columbus was not an immigrant. The original colonists were not immigrants.

Exactly - those that lived here then actually called them INVADERS!

Can you believe someone would do that?

 

[PaulinVA]

My grandparents were immigrants. But this country was founded by settlers. The settler is not an immigrant. Christopher Columbus was not an immigrant. The original colonists were not immigrants.

By the way, how did the Indians get here.

This country was founded by conquerors who killed anyone who got in their way, and then herded all of the natives and gave them the worst land in the country for their “reservations”.

Read about “Manifest Destiny”.

“Settlers” is revisionist history by the winners.

 

[Bullfighter]

I don’t treat them like they are the “White Man’s Burden”. I think of them like they are a fellow human, which makes them my neighbor and my brother.

We have the ability to do good. Thus, we have the responsibility to do good. We are called to be men of Christ, men for others.

Besides, why is a Mexican born today responsible for what happened in Mexico 50, 75, or 100 years ago any more than an American is? That’s a question you refuse to answer. Unless you want to take personal responsibility for the Trans-Atlantic slave trade…

The average immigrant just wants to settle in America with no fuss. Mexicans are forcing their culture on all other Americans. That’s why I consider them invaders. Does that answer your question?

If you look at my original post you can see how they are forcing laws on an American town.

 

[Redbandito]

The argument has already been clearly demonstrated. When China and Vietnam fell to communism, countless Chinese and Vietnamese who were/are Catholic found refuge in the United States - although many (if not most) had to enter the country illegally. Issue now: how can they leave their countries today?

As for luck? What does God have to do with luck?

Also, who is Gould?

Also, re prior post of yours, who considers Myasthenia Gravis a infectious disease?

The fact that there was a mass influx from southeast Asia at one time is a bit different than the annual influx from our southern border. I would not say the two are very comparable.

What does god have to do with luck? What? So your argument is that illegal immigration from Mexico as compared to those in other countries with less access is simply a matter of divine providence? I’m sure that sounded good in your head, but I am not buying that one. God does not ask us to violate the law.

Gould was clearly a typo. If you scroll back I have already editted it. Sorry typing on an iPhone can be a little less precise.

My argument was not that the particular disease was infectious as evidenced by my use of “xtb” but rather to point out that immigrants are illegally crossing our borders w/o medical screenings. The endangers us all. I think the point was pretty clear, but I apologize if it wasn’t.

 

[Redbandito]

This country was founded by conquerors who killed anyone who got in their way, and then herded all of the natives and gave them the worst land in the country for their “reservations”.

Read about “Manifest Destiny”.

“Settlers” is revisionist history by the winners.

It saddens me so many Americans of good will believe this. Im not saying all european settlers were kind to native Americans but your caricature is far from historically accurate. A great read on this is medveds 10 biggest lies about America. Check it out. I think it will be refreshing.

 

[catharina]

The fact that there was a mass influx from southeast Asia at one time is a bit different than the annual influx from our southern border. I would not say the two are very comparable.

Asia (China) and Southeast Asia (Vietnam) are separate entities.

What does god have to do with luck? What?

What? Literally, I (quoting you) ask what does God have to do with luck? NOTHING.

So your argument is that illegal immigration from Mexico as compared to those in other countries with less access is simply a matter of divine providence? I’m sure that sounded good in your head, but I am not buying that one. God does not ask us to violate the law.

I’m not selling anything. I am saying that if communist nations shared our border, we’d see greater diversity among illegal immigrants. Not a brain-buster.

Gould was clearly a typo. If you scroll back I have already editted it. Sorry typing on an iPhone can be a little less precise.

Oh. Thought Gould was a reference-point (unknown to me).

My argument was not that the particular disease was infectious as evidenced by my use of “xtb” but rather to point out that immigrants are illegally crossing our borders w/o medical screenings. The endangers us all. I think the point was pretty clear, but I apologize if it wasn’t.

Still unclear to me: what’s xtb?

 

[Bullfighter]

This country was founded by conquerors who killed anyone who got in their way, and then herded all of the natives and gave them the worst land in the country for their “reservations”.

Read about “Manifest Destiny”.

“Settlers” is revisionist history by the winners.

If settlers is a revisionist history, it goes back to the beginning of this country as the word is often used in old books.

You must be reading one of those “make whitey feel guilty” history books that are usually written by minorities.

If it is ever on again, watch the PBS documentary about the French and Indian War.

The European were absolutely shocked at how the Indian would behave like “savages”. Scalping, gutting out the bowels of those who surrendered. I guess if you ran into a cannibal, you would offer your arm just so he wouldn’t think you were a racist.