Is it wrong for a Catholic woman to work and have a family?

[JackieMom]

Dear Debora,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Indeed, dear sister, we do need money to survive and sustain us, but as Catholics we must needs think about other important issues also, such as the spiritual welfare of our families. The Psalmist could say with great confidence that he had never seen “the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread” (Ps. 37: 25), and I can personally testify to the truth of this when my wife and I were bringing up our child. By UK standards we were extremely poor and disadvantaged, but we enjoyed a nutritious diet and had clothes on our backs, even though they were often from charity shops. My wife is a very capable woman and had she worked we would have enjoyed a better standard of living, along with greater financial security, for sure. However, she decided that she was going to be obedient to the biblical mandate regarding women being ‘keepers at home’ (Titus 2: 5) and fully embrace the role of wife and mother. We have never had any regrets about that decision and found in our own experience that God will honour them that honour Him. We did surivive, although being of slender means was jolly hard at times, especially with a young child. Treats were very occasional but very much appreciated when we had them.

God, dear sister, has promised to supply our needs, not necessarily our wants and this is why many are so disastisfied with their lot today. They want a comfortable lifestyle that is mostly free from any severe hardship, indeed they feel somehow cheated if this is denied to them for some reason. However, working people who murmmer about having a poor quality of life ought to try living on state welfare payments, for then they would know what real poverty and deprivation is. People in this position often have to choose between eating and heating during the cold winter season, which is very grim indeed. Moreover, if they have a long-term mental or physical health problem that precludes them from working and no family to call upon, then living on welfare handouts can be an immense trial, in more ways than one. Thus many spouses who would complain about having to exist on only a husband’s ‘meagre wage’ should think about the plight of those who really are suffering severe hardship, but who still have to survive.

We expect far too much too soon these days and that is why there is so much discontent, especially among the youth. Some spouses convince themselves that they require two incomes and cannot possibly get by without them, but often they just do not want what they deem to be a low standard of living where they are ‘working for nothing’. These people often say that they will not get our of bed in the morning unless a job pays them a ‘decent wage’.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

And how do you feel about a married woman who for, whatever reason, has no children? Is she, too, Biblically obligated to stay home? Is she also not suited to paid employment?

 

[Debora123]

I am morally convicted that I am obligated to provide more than bare subsistence to my children as I am able, to allow them to develop as whole balanced people. I also find it morally repugnant to rely on socialized government, like those in Western Europe, to provide for my children what I am obligated to provide through the sweat of my brow (and my husband’s).

And frankly, having five children is expensive in a way a person with only one just cannot fathom.

The Church allows us to make prudential judgments for ourselves on this, and nothing you say can change that, Portrait.

 

[Baelor]

My wife is a very capable woman and had she worked we would have enjoyed a better standard of living, along with greater financial security, for sure. However, she decided that she was going to be obedient to the biblical mandate regarding women being ‘keepers at home’ (Titus 2: 5) and fully embrace the role of wife and mother. We have never had any regrets about that decision and found in our own experience that God will honour them that honour Him. We did surivive, although being of slender means was jolly hard at times, especially with a young child. Treats were very occasional but very much appreciated when we had them.

You are doing it again – Portrait’s morality =/= Catholic morality. Each couple, with the counseling of the priest if possible, is able to decide what is best for their family. Families in which the wife works are not being “disobedient to the Biblical mandate” necessarily.

However, working people who murmmer about having a poor quality of life ought to try living on state welfare payments, for then they would know what real poverty and deprivation is. People in this position often have to choose between eating and heating during the cold winter season, which is very grim indeed.

There are many couples for whom this is precisely the case. The ability to purchase healthful food, maintain a safe and comfortable (e.g. heated in cold areas), functional clothes, and so forth all take priority over a wife staying at home.

Furthermore, there are certain other goods that are intrinsic. Education through schools and travel, etc., are also goods. If a wife working part-time or full-time in a way that does not interfere with raising her children can open up these opportunities to the family, it is un-Catholic to suggest that the family forgo things the Church considers good with no downsides whatsoever.

 

[Debora123]

That was written in 1566, really? She can’t work outside the home without her husband’s consent. Really? Are you kidding me? He’s my husband, not my father. I hope the OP is not confused. OP, if your wife wants to work outside the home, and you “both” discussed it through, there is no reason and no fire and brimstone will befall you if she does. Portrait, dearest, do you have any idea what a mess the economy is in right now? Do you really think a young man of 20, with a wife and a baby and no skills can have a decent family life while working for $9.00 an hour and no health insurance? Really? How much is the Council of Trent planning on kicking in for the rent, utilities and the rising cost of gas? In 1566 women were second class citizens, people were divided by a class system. Women were on the bottom wrung of the ladder no matter which social class or lack their of they were born into.

My husband doesn’t give me “consent”, “permission” and in my wedding vows in 1981 (in the Catholic Church), there was no mention of the word “obey” directed at me.

Reality is the order of the day.

 

[Debora123]

You are doing it again – Portrait’s morality =/= Catholic morality. Each couple, with the counseling of the priest if possible, is able to decide what is best for their family. Families in which the wife works are not being “disobedient to the Biblical mandate” necessarily.

There are many couples for whom this is precisely the case. The ability to purchase healthful food, maintain a safe and comfortable (e.g. heated in cold areas), functional clothes, and so forth all take priority over a wife staying at home.

Furthermore, there are certain other goods that are intrinsic. Education through schools and travel, etc., are also goods. If a wife working part-time or full-time in a way that does not interfere with raising her children can open up these opportunities to the family, it is un-Catholic to suggest that the family forgo things the Church considers good with no downsides whatsoever.

 

[gmarie21]

From Proverbs (which is older than the Council of Trent)
“Who can find* a woman of worth?a
Far beyond jewels is her value.
11
Her husband trusts her judgment;
he does not lack income.
12
She brings him profit, not loss,*
all the days of her life.
13
She seeks out wool and flax
and weaves with skillful hands.
14
Like a merchant fleet,*
she secures her provisions from afar.
15
She rises while it is still night,
and distributes food to her household,
a portion to her maidservants.
16
She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.*
18
She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.*
19
She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her fingers ply the spindle.*
20
She reaches out her hands to the poor,
and extends her arms to the needy.
21
She is not concerned for her household when it snows—
all her charges are doubly clothed.
22
She makes her own coverlets;
fine linen and purple are her clothing.
23
Her husband is prominent at the city gates
as he sits with the elders of the land.*
24
She makes garments and sells them,
and stocks the merchants with belts.
25
She is clothed with strength and dignity,
and laughs at the days to come.*
26
She opens her mouth in wisdom;
kindly instruction is on her tongue.
27
She watches over* the affairs of her household,
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28
Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband, too, praises her:
29
“Many are the women of proven worth,
but you have excelled them all.”
30
Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting;
the woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.*
31
Acclaim her for the work of her hands,
and let her deeds praise her at the city gates.”

The bolded part clearly states a woman can work outside of the home for her family. Basically all the woman does that is described here is to do everything for her family.

 

[thewanderer]

16
She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.*
18
She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.*

Also these two lines.

 

[Walking_Home]

I am morally convicted that I am obligated to provide more than bare subsistence to my children as I am able, to allow them to develop as whole balanced people. I also find it morally repugnant to rely on socialized government, like those in Western Europe, to provide for my children what I am obligated to provide through the sweat of my brow (and my husband’s).

And frankly, having five children is expensive in a way a person with only one just cannot fathom.

Baelor:

Originally Posted by Baelor View Post
You are doing it again – Portrait’s morality =/= Catholic morality. Each couple, with the counseling of the priest if possible, is able to decide what is best for their family. Families in which the wife works are not being “disobedient to the Biblical mandate” necessarily.

There are many couples for whom this is precisely the case. The ability to purchase healthful food, maintain a safe and comfortable (e.g. heated in cold areas), functional clothes, and so forth all take priority over a wife staying at home.

Furthermore, there are certain other goods that are intrinsic. Education through schools and travel, etc., are also goods. If a wife working part-time or full-time in a way that does not interfere with raising her children can open up these opportunities to the family, it is un-Catholic to suggest that the family forgo things the Church considers good with no downsides whatsoever.

gmarie21:

From Proverbs (which is older than the Council of Trent)
"Who can find* a woman of worth?a
Far beyond jewels is her value.
11
Her husband trusts her judgment;
he does not lack income.
12
She brings him profit, not loss,*
all the days of her life.
13
She seeks out wool and flax
and weaves with skillful hands.
14
Like a merchant fleet,*
she secures her provisions from afar.
15
She rises while it is still night,
and distributes food to her household,
a portion to her maidservants.
16
She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.*
18
She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.*
etc…

The bolded part clearly states a woman can work outside of the home for her family. Basically all the woman does that is described here is to do everything for her family.

---

— to all the above.

 

[LightBound]

There is a chap on here who still doesn’t understand that it’s his very attitude towards women that feeds the feminists he blames for all the ills in the world.

Try hauling your jolly good self into the 21st Century of the Catholic Church and see what our recent Pontiffs have to say about women! One of them canonized a young wife, mother, and doctor who continued to work outside the home, even when she had small children and a financially successful husband.

 

[Kelfa28]

Indeed, dear sister, we do need money to survive and sustain us, but as Catholics we must needs think about other important issues also, such as the spiritual welfare of our families.
God, dear sister, has promised to supply our needs, not necessarily our wants and this is why many are so disastisfied with their lot today. They want a comfortable lifestyle that is mostly free from any severe hardship, indeed they feel somehow cheated if this is denied to them for some reason.

Needs…hmmm. Lets go over some of these needs that families should have.

How about we use the People’s Republic of Massachusetts as a background setting.

I have a one year old.

We need a car. We have a used one we don’t make payments on. It still presents a litany of other problems.
The car MUST have insurance. It’s against the law not to. Insurance is expensive…even with pristine driving records like my husband and I.

The car MUST be inspected yearly. That gets expensive with all the emission, tire, engine and emission standards. I’ve spent more money trying to get a passing sticker for my car then I would like to post here.

The car MUST be re-registered every other year. That costs money.

Gas is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. I live in the suburbs. No bus route for us. Especially to go on base where we work.

I need a car seat that grows with the child. They are not cheap and you cannot buy them used. It’s against the law to not have one.
For each subsequent child I need a car seat.
Children are now required to be in at least a booster until a certain weight is met. That could take years.
We pay excise tax every year for the house and the cars.

In my state…health insurance is MANDATORY. It’s against the law if you don’t have it. It’s certainly very expensive…especially if you don’t qualify for Medicaid.
If you don’t have it you are nailed when tax time rolls around.

We have a house.
Taxes are expensive where I live.
We must have house insurance.
We must pay our gas, electric and water bills.

We must by food. That is expensive. I cook every single night. We almost never go out to eat. I also don’t buy baby food for her. I buy produce and meats and make all of her baby food.

We don’t watch the television. But we NEED the internet. Can you believe it’s actually more expensive to have just an internet package then a basic cable and internet package?
Thanks to our state…only one or two companies actually do business. They have a monopoly and we don’t have much of a choice to shop around.

We do cloth diaper. That has saved us money. But we need to buy formula since BFing did not work. That is expensive.

Shall I go on?
We somehow make it work on his unemployment benefits. But I hardly think we are “living it up” and splurging on a Playstation and then complaining our mortgage isn’t covered for the month.

So…again…I’m supposed to stay home and twiddle my thumbs while my husband’s unemployment runs out (and this sequester might squash any extension) and he can’t find a job?

Or do I throw in some applications to keep a roof over our head, the lights and heat on and food on the table?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

True. I guess Veritas can chime in here and shed some light into what their situation would be.

We could probably scrape by on my salary alone if we added two children to our family. Probably scrape by. I mean scrape by, not live a lavish lifestyle. I’m talking small house, 1 car (needed to get to work and buy groceries), very low almost non-existent entertainment and clothing budget, etc.

The thing is, Debora, what would happen if I lose my job for some unforeseen reason? There are teacher cutbacks happening all across the country. You just never know, it could happen without having anything to do with performance.

IF my wife was the only out-of-the-house worker, however, and IF I contributed a thousand or two a month by working from home (as she could not do), then we could probably afford a better lifestyle AND have enough to sock away $1,500 a month for savings, retirement and college funds to better prepare ours (and our children’s) future and insure ourselves against the potential of job loss/job problems AND we would still have 1 parent at home for the kids… while she would still get maternity leave at the very least (not a picnic by any means, but it’s something.)

That, to me, is a no-brainer.

 

[Debora123]

We could probably scrape by on my salary alone if we added two children to our family. Probably scrape by. I mean scrape by, not live a lavish lifestyle. I’m talking small house, 1 car (needed to get to work and buy groceries), very low almost non-existent entertainment and clothing budget, etc.

The thing is, Debora, what would happen if I lose my job for some unforeseen reason? There are teacher cutbacks happening all across the country. You just never know, it could happen without having anything to do with performance.

IF my wife was the only out-of-the-house worker, however, and IF I contributed a thousand or two a month by working from home (as she could not do), then we could probably afford a better lifestyle AND have enough to sock away $1,500 a month for savings, retirement and college funds to better prepare ours (and our children’s) future and insure ourselves against the potential of job loss/job problems AND we would still have 1 parent at home for the kids… while she would still get maternity leave at the very least (not a picnic by any means, but it’s something.)

That, to me, is a no-brainer.

Agreed, good sir. Agreed.

 

[Debora123]

Needs…hmmm. Lets go over some of these needs that families should have.

How about we use the People’s Republic of Massachusetts as a background setting.

I have a one year old.

We need a car. We have a used one we don’t make payments on. It still presents a litany of other problems.
The car MUST have insurance. It’s against the law not to. Insurance is expensive…even with pristine driving records like my husband and I.

The car MUST be inspected yearly. That gets expensive with all the emission, tire, engine and emission standards. I’ve spent more money trying to get a passing sticker for my car then I would like to post here.

The car MUST be re-registered every other year. That costs money.

Gas is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. I live in the suburbs. No bus route for us. Especially to go on base where we work.

I need a car seat that grows with the child. They are not cheap and you cannot buy them used. It’s against the law to not have one.
For each subsequent child I need a car seat.
Children are now required to be in at least a booster until a certain weight is met. That could take years.
We pay excise tax every year for the house and the cars.

In my state…health insurance is MANDATORY. It’s against the law if you don’t have it. It’s certainly very expensive…especially if you don’t qualify for Medicaid.
If you don’t have it you are nailed when tax time rolls around.

We have a house.
Taxes are expensive where I live.
We must have house insurance.
We must pay our gas, electric and water bills.

We must by food. That is expensive. I cook every single night. We almost never go out to eat. I also don’t buy baby food for her. I buy produce and meats and make all of her baby food.

We don’t watch the television. But we NEED the internet. Can you believe it’s actually more expensive to have just an internet package then a basic cable and internet package?
Thanks to our state…only one or two companies actually do business. They have a monopoly and we don’t have much of a choice to shop around.

We do cloth diaper. That has saved us money. But we need to buy formula since BFing did not work. That is expensive.

Shall I go on?
We somehow make it work on his unemployment benefits. But I hardly think we are “living it up” and splurging on a Playstation and then complaining our mortgage isn’t covered for the month.

So…again…I’m supposed to stay home and twiddle my thumbs while my husband’s unemployment runs out (and this sequester might squash any extension) and he can’t find a job?

Or do I throw in some applications to keep a roof over our head, the lights and heat on and food on the table?

 

[Portrait]

From Proverbs:
24
She makes garments and sells them,
and stocks the merchants with belts.

The bolded part clearly states a woman can work outside of the home for her family. Basically all the woman does that is described here is to do everything for her family.

Dear gmarie21,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

The portrait, dear friend, of the virtuous woman in that elegant passage describes a woman who works diligently from within the home, which is the centre of all her operations. Her husband confides to her the management of the household and is confident that all will be well whilst he is absent (v. 11), which seems to imply that she is engaged as a full-time worker at home. Whilst it is true that she does provide from all quarters maintenance for her household, it should be observed that she carefully watches over the conduct of her family and domestics (v. 27), which she could not do with such efficiency were she to be away from the home for too long a period. This pious woman is a worker at home and an ideal wife and homemaker and therefore this lovely chapter actually compliments the Pauline passage in Titus 2: 4,5. At any rate we cannot appeal to the Proverbs passage to support married women working outside of the home in the modern sense in which we understand women working outside the home.

Moreover, dear friend, in the passage in Titus, St. Paul does not say that married women could be workers at home a**nd workers outside of the home, he only enjoined them to be workers at home. Undoubtedly he understood only too well that being a wife and mother was a jolly demanding job per se and that such work could only be properly undertaken by her being at home full-time. With the aggressive disparagment of women homemakers nowadays, for example by the likes of Cherie Blair, Catholics need to loudly declare that home building and motherhood is an indispensable work of supreme importance - ‘the hand that rocks the cradle still rules the world’.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[catholicmamajoy]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9189193&highlight=gianna#post9189193

 

[Debora123]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9189193&highlight=gianna#post9189193

agreed

 

[JackieMom]

Dear gmarie21,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

The portrait, dear friend, of the virtuous woman in that elegant passage describes a woman who works diligently from within the home, which is the centre of all her operations. Her husband confides to her the management of the household and is confident that all will be well whilst he is absent (v. 11), which seems to imply that she is engaged as a full-time worker at home. Whilst it is true that she does provide from all quarters maintenance for her household, it should be observed that she carefully watches over the conduct of her family and domestics (v. 27), which she could not do with such efficiency were she to be away from the home for too long a period. This pious woman is a worker at home and an ideal wife and homemaker and therefore this lovely chapter actually compliments the Pauline passage in Titus 2: 4,5. At any rate we cannot appeal to the Proverbs passage to support married women working outside of the home in the modern sense in which we understand women working outside the home.

Moreover, dear friend, in the passage in Titus, St. Paul does not say that married women could be workers at home a**nd workers outside of the home, he only enjoined them to be workers at home. Undoubtedly he understood only too well that being a wife and mother was a jolly demanding job per se and that such work could only be properly undertaken by her being at home full-time. With the aggressive disparagment of women homemakers nowadays, for example by the likes of Cherie Blair, Catholics need to loudly declare that home building and motherhood is an indispensable work of supreme importance - ‘the hand that rocks the cradle still rules the world’.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

So I’ll ask again - should married, but childless, women stay home or do they have God’s permission to seek employment?

Additionally - what are God’s thoughts on part-time work? Can a mom work 10 hours a week while the children are at Grandma’s, at school or with Daddy? Can she work 5 hours per week? What is the number of hours a mother can work outside of the home without incurring God’s wrath? I am curious because, while I do not work outside my home, I do go to the gym about ten hours per week.

 

[Debora123]

So I’ll ask again - should married, but childless, women stay home or do they have God’s permission to seek employment?

Additionally - what are God’s thoughts on part-time work? Can a mom work 10 hours a week while the children are at Grandma’s, at school or with Daddy? Can she work 5 hours per week? What is the number of hours a mother can work outside of the home without incurring God’s wrath? I am curious because, while I do not work outside my home, I do go to the gym about ten hours per week.

I don’t remember who it was that said this, and perhaps it wasn’t portrait… but someone did say once on here that unless a woman either gets married and has babies, or becomes a nun, she is selfish and not fulfilling her duties here on earth.

 

[PRmerger]

This thread is hysterical!

Reminds me of my new great big waste o’ time: reading Amazon Customer Reviews.

Best one regarding the Bic Cristal for Her: (wickedly funny!)

I love BIC Cristal for Her! The delicate shape and pretty pastel colors make it perfect for writing recipe cards, checks to my psychologist (I’m seeing him for a case of the hysterics), and tracking my monthly cycle. Obviously, I don’t use it for vulgar endeavors like math or filling out a voter application, but BIC Cristal for Her is a lovely little writing utensil all the same. Ask your husband for some extra pocket money so you can buy one today!

 

[JackieMom]

I don’t remember who it was that said this, and perhaps it wasn’t portrait… but someone did say once on here that unless a woman either gets married and has babies, or becomes a nun, she is selfish and not fulfilling her duties here on earth.

I thought being single was an acceptable vocation! Silly me. What of married women who would like children, but are unable to concieve them? Can they work?