Is it wrong that I only date virgins?

[maryjk]

Nothing inherently wrong with wanting to marry a virgin.

But, not to burst any bubbles or anything, a substantial number of girls who claim to be virgins, aren’t. Also, at least some girls who really are virgins resent a guy who wants to know if they are. I remember a girl I knew who I will always believe was a virgin. The guy she was dating hemmed and hawed around, but made it clear he was wanting to know.

She exploded and said something like “Which is it that you are dating, my virginity or me?” She never went out with him again. He was really upset by that and asked me why she broke off with him. I told him she gave her answer to that better than I ever could.

So, while the hunt for virgins might have a happy ending, it isn’t necessarily always so.

Thinking back to my virgin days, I would have to agree.

I have been married for over 20 years, so it has been a long time.

But I would have been very turned off by someone talking to me about virginity. When I was a virgin, I was not interested in talking to the guy I was dating about it. It was very personal. Very personal.

But heck, if the OP hasn’t come across a woman that has slapped him for that conversation, then go for it.

 

[marymary1975]

The general gist of the posts I’m seeing here is that maintaining virginity is not a big deal–losing it is an inevitable something like not remembering to return library books, something that virgins and people with perfect records at the library should just “grow up and deal with” seems to be the thought–and that there is a high chance that this guy isn’t going to find a woman who has had the self-control that he did. If he does, it is reasoned, the “pool” will be small, and those women he will date will lack the fine qualities of the girls who didn’t have that kind of self-control–for what reason, I do not know, because self-control in one area is often indicative of a broader habit of self-mastery.

He is a virgin, and maintaining virginity prior to marriage is one of his values. People who marry other people with similar values tend to have the best chance of a successful marriage. People who are wary of marrying people with very different core values–and “I’m not a virgin, grow up and deal with it” is a very different value than his–are not lowering their chances of a happy and long-lasting marriage. If this is one of his core values, then by all means he ought to look for a woman of like mind. Whether he wants to count as a woman of like mind someone who had a brief fall before the regret of learning the error of her ways is up to him.

^^ exactly! Specially as to people wary of marrying people with similar value are not lowering the chances of a marriage. They are lowering the chances of getting divorced.

 

[marymary1975]

Since both fornication and adultery are basicallmarriage. me sin, all girls who willingly have sex before marriage ARE, in effect, cheaters. Both are grave sins against the 6th Commandment and the only difference is the state of life of the sinner.

I am not the OP but I can give you more than one reason that a man who waits for marriage might want to marry a woman who has made the same commitment.

1. This is a value, a moral point-of-view that they would have in common.
2. If a woman makes a promise not to have sex before marriage and keeps that promise, to God or to herself, she is demonstrating faithfulness – an extremely important quality in a future spouse.
3. A woman (or man) that understands and acts according to the Church’s teaching on sex before marriage is more likely to accept and act according to the Church’s other teachings regarding sex and marriage.

I agree with you Corki. Pre marital sex is formication too so yes from a religious standpoint it is cheating.
And I am going to add another reason why he would like to find a woman like minded: one of the top five causes of divorce in the US (together with economics, difference of culture, difference in parenting views, difference of religion ) is difference in moral and values.
Whatever issue exists in dating will multiplicate by three or four in marriage. marriage is hard enough already. The more issues you can eliminate in dating the better for you.

 

[maryjk]

I agree with you Corki. Pre marital sex is formication too so yes from a religious standpoint it is cheating.
And I am going to add another reason why he would like to find a woman like minded: one of the top five causes of divorce in the US (together with economics, difference of culture, difference in parenting views, difference of religion ) is difference in moral and values.
Whatever issue exists in dating will multiplicate by three or four in marriage. marriage is hard enough already. The more issues you can eliminate in dating the better for you.

I don’t think anyone is upset or angry about the OP wanting to date and marry a virgin.

The problem was how he described non-virgins. It lead many, myself included, to wonder how he treats women that he doesn’t think are virgins.

Also, how he would find out someone was or wasn’t a virgin. If he had brought that up when I was young and unmarried, I would have slapped him.

He has since indicated that he has nothing against non-virgins. I simply hope that he doesn’t find them repulsive.

And if he hasn’t been slapped yet, I guess he is fine with how he is approaching it.

Everyone has things they look for in a future spouse. When I was dating, I didn’t date people that were unemployed. It seemed to me that they had other things they should be concentrating on. So, if he wants to be sure to marry a virgin, for whatever reason, that is his option.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If you talk to couples in which both were virgins when they married, they tend to be happy with their success at finding each other. That is experience that says this is not a red flag: that is, that people with his sexual history do fine with the same restrictions he has. There are virgins who post here who despair of finding another virgin to marry, but since he’s only 20, I think he can cross that bridge if he comes to it. He’s not condemning himself to a life of unwanted bachelorhood.

Married couples tend to be happy with their success of finding each other, period. And no one is saying that he won’t or can’t find a virgin, and no one has suggested that he’s dooming himself to bachelorhood.

He is not prying into anything that is not his business by asking for a sexual history and inquiring about sexual attitudes. Secular people (and very sexually active people included) do it all of the time! When you contemplate marriage, your prospective spouse’s sexual history is your business, just as their financial history and academic history and everything else is your business, if it is important to you. It is not for you to be judgmental about it, of course someone who does not want to disclose these things is free to wait it out to find someone who won’t ask, but it is the place of those who marry to decide what is and is not negotiable and what information needs to be disclosed in order to make an informed decision.

I completely agree that a couple should agree on what should be shared and what shouldn’t. That’s not what we’re talking about though.

I don’t think at all that it is a red flag that he feels this way. If I said I didn’t want to marry someone who had to declare bankruptcy, who would bat an eye over it? Would I be passing over some financially dependable persons? I’m sure I would. I would also not lie awake wondering whether this person were going to fall off the wagon and go on another spending spree. It is like that with every sort of intemperance that we might fall into. It is possible to repent and never fall again, but there are some people who aren’t going to take that chance on us. That does not mean that they are not ready for marriage, not any more than it is a red flag that someone says, “So I have a past–if you’re a grown-up, you can deal with it” or “I am not getting into the details of my sexual past. If you won’t marry me if I have experiences I won’t talk about, I guess you’ll need to keep looking.” No, those are all separate ways of looking at the issue, and there are happily married people that take each of those three views and more.

Actually, I think that you would find a lot of people questioning the wisdom of writing off everyone who has ever declared bankruptcy. I think that a lot of posters would point out that many people end up in bankruptcy through no fault of their own, and that while it is good to find someone with whom your financial values line up, bankruptcy isn’t the best or only indicator of that. You would probably be encouraged to take things slow and make sure that you’re really compatible, especially financially. But I don’t think that you would be widely congratulated in your attempt to paint everyone who meets qualification X with the broad brush of Y.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I will agree on this: If we are too adamant about a list we have on paper, we will probably exclude prospects that might have things to offer that no one who can satisfy our whole list is likely to do. That is the trade-off he makes, yes. The longer your list, the more people you summarily exclude. Still, virginity in the partner will make the short list of many people who have maintained their virginity themselves. They tend to marry other virgins and the couples tend to be happy with that arrangement. It has a very good history of working out, so that speaks against his prejudice being a “red flag.”

You’ll find a lot of people on here that married a virgin spouse when they were not, or vice-versa. Just because the marriages work out and are happy does not mean that the poster’s attitude is not a red flag. (And often, virgins who marry virgins did not specifically exclude non-virgins.)

Here’s the thing: If this were about finding someone with compatible values, I would completely, 100% back him. But this isn’t about values. It also isn’t about divorce, as there are a whole host of other things that he would care about just as much, if not more, than virginity (college education and her parent’s marital status, for example). This is his concern about “baggage”, not measuring up to her past, and being “repulsed” by the fact that long ago, another man had sex with her. All of these are a reflection of him, not the women he’s dating.

I’m pointing out issues with his method because I don’t see wisdom, love, charity, or a readiness for marriage in it. I don’t think it’s wrong or immoral, I just don’t think it’s the best system. Who you choose to marry is probably the single biggest choice you will ever make. This a choice that you want to make well, and that you shouldn’t cut corners with. Of course, it’s easier to paint people broadly and narrow them out by groups, but is it really worth taking those kinds of haphazard shortcuts when it comes to finding a spouse? Yes, it’s easier to say “I won’t date a non virgin” or “I could never give someone a shot who has declared bankruptcy” than it is to get to know people as individuals and really explore where their hearts, minds, and values are-and how you fit together. It’s far easier to listen to the jealous voice inside of you and write off most members of the opposite sex than it is to really evaluate whether or not those jealous feelings are well-founded, conducive to making good life choices, and worth getting over. It’s even harder to put your own pride aside to begin to work on those issues of jealousy and insecurity! But is it worth it? I would say that for a 20 year old man, taking the high road of self-improvement and at least making the effort to judge women for who they are, rather than the mistakes they’ve made and turned away from, is worth it.

At least it’s something for him to think about.

 

[marymary1975]

I don’t think anyone is upset or angry about the OI alsoting to date and marry a virgin.

The problem was how he described non-virgins. It lead many, myself included, to wonder how he treats women that he doesn’t think are virgins.

Also, how he would find out someone was or wasn’t a virgin. If he had brought that up when I was young and unmarried, I would have slapped him.

He has since indicated that he has nothing against non-virgins. I simply hope that he doesn’t find them repulsive.

And if he hasn’t been slapped yet, I guess he is fine with how he is approaching it.

Everyone has things they look for in a future spouse. When I was dating, I didn’t date people that were unemployed. It seemed to me that they had other things they should be concentrating on. So, if he wants to be sure to marry a virgin, for whatever reason, that is his option.

I don’t think the OP was very clear in the beginning. That is why I told him “as long as you are not doing …is OK” but over the thread he did clarify himself.

As to how is he going to know. I agree. Many people lie too. That is why I also gave him the advice of looking at the totality of circumstances and not to get fixated in one aspect Also iI recommended chastity for the same reason. As chastity is more of a lifestyle, and involves way more than intercourse is easier to determine by general behavior.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t think the OP was very clear in the beginning. That is why I told him “as long as you are not doing …is OK” but over the thread he did clarify himself.

As to how is he going to know. I agree. Many people lie too. That is why I also gave him the advice of looking at the totality of circumstances and not to get fixated in one aspect Also iI recommended chastity for the same reason. As chastity is more of a lifestyle, and involves way more than intercourse is easier to determine by general behavior.

Not only that, but it keeps him from being a hypocrite. Porn, masturbation, lust, etc are all sins against chastity and usually considered by Catholics to constitute adultery. I would bet any amount of money that the OP has committed more than a few sexual sins in his 20 years.

And I think that chastity is a better measure for him anyway since it’s far more indicative of a person’s values.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As to how is he going to know. I agree. Many people lie too. That is why I also gave him the advice of looking at the totality of circumstances and not to get fixated in one aspect Also iI recommended chastity for the same reason. As chastity is more of a lifestyle, and involves way more than intercourse is easier to determine by general behavior.

Reminds me of my youthful days when, prior to marriage, lots of young women told their future husbands they went to the doctor (and perhaps some really did) to have the “painful impediment to sex” removed in a minor surgery in preparation for their wedding night (and maybe some really did).

Maye I was a bit cynical in my callow youth, but I always wondered about the necessity of it. After all, who would ever really know?

Maybe nobody does that anymore. And maybe no women tell men that story any more about the accident while riding their brother’s bike. One would have thought the word would have gotten around about the hazard to riding a boy’s bike, but few seemed to have learned.

 

[EasterJoy]

Married couples tend to be happy with their success of finding each other, period. And no one is saying that he won’t or can’t find a virgin, and no one has suggested that he’s dooming himself to bachelorhood.

I completely agree that a couple should agree on what should be shared and what shouldn’t. That’s not what we’re talking about though.

Actually, I think that you would find a lot of people questioning the wisdom of writing off everyone who has ever declared bankruptcy. I think that a lot of posters would point out that many people end up in bankruptcy through no fault of their own, and that while it is good to find someone with whom your financial values line up, bankruptcy isn’t the best or only indicator of that. You would probably be encouraged to take things slow and make sure that you’re really compatible, especially financially. But I don’t think that you would be widely congratulated in your attempt to paint everyone who meets qualification X with the broad brush of Y.

The OP said he has married friends who were virgins who married someone who was not, and they regretted that their spouse was also not a virgin. The OP thinks he would feel the same way. It is not wrong to feel that way, and although it carries its hazards it is not wrong to decide not to marry a virgin.

Could it be rash in some cases? Sure it could, but he admits that. He says himself that he’s not writing these people off as bad spouses for anyone. He’s saying this is a standard he wants to set…is that wrong? The answer is no, it isn’t. Everyone has some non-negotiable standards that other people would think are rash. Some “standards” would seem arbitrary or even eccentric to anyone else. This is marriage, though, and discrimination is no sin. You ought to feel entirely comfortable with the person you marry, including comfortable with their past, and that can be a very emotional thing. It isn’t all in one’s head. Some people assure themselves of their future spouse’s capacity for life-long fidelity in other ways, some people do not have any emotional investment in a relationship that will have been always-and-forever exclusive, but this is not an arbitrary or eccentric thing he’s talking about. He is talking about something that is objectively a virtue. There is nothing wrong with that.

I would have written off anyone who has declared bankruptcy, but I don’t have a high tolerance for financial risk and do not care that I would have missed out on marrying an entrepreneur. Yes, I might have changed my mind for the right person, but that didn’t happen.

 

[maryjk]

**The OP said he has married friends who were virgins who married someone who was not, and they regretted that their spouse was also not a virgin. **The OP thinks he would feel the same way. It is not wrong to feel that way, and although it carries its hazards it is not wrong to decide not to marry a virgin.

Maybe I have been out of the dating world too long. But I would be very upset if I found out that my husband was talking about our sex life with his friends. Certainly if I found out that he was talking about my virginity or lack there of.

Maybe talking about sex has become the norm. And maybe that is why the OP can talk about it to his potential dates.

I have to say, this thread has been an eye opener for me.

 

[EasterJoy]

Maybe I have been out of the dating world too long. But I would be very upset if I found out that my husband was talking about our sex life with his friends. Certainly if I found out that he was talking about my virginity or lack there of.

Maybe talking about sex has become the norm. And maybe that is why the OP can talk about it to his potential dates.

I have to say, this thread has been an eye opener for me.

It is a new world since AIDS and education concerning the prevalence of herpes, chlamydia, and the human papilloma virus. People very often “take a sexual history” before they start dating seriously. The more sexually active, the more they ask. So yes, I think this is something people talk about more.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It is a new world since AIDS and education concerning the prevalence of herpes, chlamydia, and the human papilloma virus. People very often “take a sexual history” before they start dating seriously. The more sexually active, the more they ask. So yes, I think this is something people talk about more.

No. AIDS in the world or not, it isn’t acceptable to discuss your spouse’s sexual history and your thoughts on the matter with your friends.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The OP said he has married friends who were virgins who married someone who was not, and they regretted that their spouse was also not a virgin. The OP thinks he would feel the same way. It is not wrong to feel that way, and although it carries its hazards it is not wrong to decide not to marry a virgin.

I’m glad you brought that up, because that’s one of the things that makes me think he isn’t ready for marriage. His friends regret that their wives weren’t virgins. He takes that to mean that they regret marrying their wives and that they think that they should have married other people. The inability to differentiate between the two means that he he isn’t ready to be married. And that’s not an insult. He’s a 20 year old. Most people that age are not mature enough for the things that marriage brings.

As for the rest of your post, I’m not going to bother. I’ve been repeating over and over again that he isn’t wrong, because no one is entitled to date him. But, just because I don’t think he’s wrong, doesn’t mean I don’t think there’s a better way. It wouldn’t be wrong of me to take the interstate to work, but it’s faster, easier, and takes less gas and time for me to take city streets.

If you want to keep harping that he isn’t wrong, and that he’s well within his rights, go for it. But you aren’t getting any disagreement from me, so don’t frame it like I’m against you on this one.

 

[maryjk]

It is a new world since AIDS and education concerning the prevalence of herpes, chlamydia, and the human papilloma virus. People very often “take a sexual history” before they start dating seriously. The more sexually active, the more they ask. So yes, I think this is something people talk about more.

No. AIDS in the world or not, it isn’t acceptable to discuss your spouse’s sexual history and your thoughts on the matter with your friends.

Thank you, BEL.

Sorry, I can’t think of ANY reason for my husband to talk to his friends about our sex life and how he feels about it. That conversation needs to be with ME.

And EasterJoy, I have never said he is wrong to want to marry a virgin.

I am just surprised about how he is going about it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you, BEL.

Sorry, I can’t think of ANY reason for my husband to talk to his friends about our sex life and how he feels about it. That conversation needs to be with ME.

And EasterJoy, I have never said he is wrong to want to marry a virgin.

I am just surprised about how he is going about it.

If your husband is disappointed with something you can’t change, he ought to keep it to himself or talk only to someone who is professionally required to keep the information secret. I agree with that, and that the subject is something as private as this only makes that more true. If a man wants to let another man know that this is something that can bother a guy after marriage, he needs to keep it in the general, “It would be breaking a confidence to name names, but that is something that can bother a guy in a big way. You shouldn’t just assume that’s a feeling that will go away.”

The way he is running the conversation is something he might want to practice with a female friend he is not going to be dating, like a sister. You are absolutely right about that.

There are a lot of ways to insert a foot in the mouth during a conversation like that, and it isn’t a conversation that ought to be done too early or in the wrong way. The idea is to give the girl a heads-up about him, after all, and not to make her feel like she’s having her tires kicked.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is the only question I have for the OP. It concerns the section of canon law concerning “Separation with the Bond Remaining.”

*Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.

§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.

§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

…

**Can. 1154 **After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.

**Can. 1155 *The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.

Here is my question: What is he going to do if his wife is unfaithful and sincerely repents? Will the habit of thought he is now entertaining force him to do what he has a right to do instead of what he might be more laudable for having done? Those who marry as virgins fall less often than those who had less self-mastery prior to marriage, but virgins-at-marriage do fall into adultery from time to time, too. It happens. What is he planning to do if that happens in his marriage?

According to the Church, if he were innocent he would have a right to separate, provided he was willing to suitably provide for the adequate support of his children. A civil court might not award custody to him, though. Since the Church would “earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life,” is he willing to do the work to put aside any feelings of “repulsion” for the sake of his marriage and his children? Would he be willing to “laudably readmit the other spouse to conjugal life,” and renounce his right to separate with the bond remaining? Or is he going to choose to live without a wife until the wife of the valid marriage he left dies? Does he have a plan for that?

The man who can’t see himself getting beyond a failure in chastity by a woman who has repented and been chaste for years might have a lot of trouble with this one. That is also his right, but there is such a thing as being dead right, too. Even if he does marry a virgin, as is also his right, he would do better if he can at least envision doing the “laudable” thing, if it comes to that. He may have to, someday, and if he cannot, it may be his children who suffer for it.

That is worth thinking about, and if that is really the point BlueEyedLady is trying to make, I have to side with her. Sometimes what you have the right to do isn’t the best you can do.

 

[Carlj1497]

Let me clarify even further…

I do NOT plan on getting married any time soon.

I am NOT actively seeking out potential spouses. These girls that I go on dates with, I just happen to meet them and like them.

I do NOT live with my parents. They live in Washington, I live in LA. I moved out at the age of 18.

Also, like I said, it’s not like on the first date I ask a girl if she’s ever had sex before. It’s after several dates, that I start explaining my morals and values. Also, I know that virgin women aren’t the easiest thing to find these days. But I don’t look to my own power, I look to God. You wouldn’t believe some of the crazy stories I’ve heard about how people have met each other. I’ll share one:

My dear friend Jon was 23. He was a chaste virgin. He was having bad luck at finding other girls who shared his morals and values. So he talked to the Priest at our Church. And the Priest said, “Don’t look to your own power, look to God. God will grant you a spouse that you will be happy to spend the rest of your life with. This, I can guarantee.” He took the Priests words to heart. So, he stopped looking for virgin women who shared his values. He stopped looking for women at all. Me and him hung out more, we played video games, we did tons of stuff to pass the time. Two months later, we went to an E3 Convention. While there, he felt like he needed to check out the PS4, which was odd, since he was a PC Gamer. So we went over there. After looking around, we ran into this girl, and Jon was speechless. She was really pretty, and was everything he wanted. So he started talking to her. They went on dates. He found out that she was a chaste virgin. Now they’re married, and I have never seen him happier.

I think, when times get tough, it’s easy to believe that WE can’t do anything about the situation, which can be true. But GOD can. Will God change my mind about virgins? Maybe. Only time (and faith) will tell. My life is in His hands, and whatever He decides to do with my faith, is okay with me.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I’m really sorry if I offended anyone, I didn’t mean to. Let me try to clarify. I like rap. Some of my friends like country. I don’t hate country, or think it sucks, or even think the music’s bad. It just doesn’t click with me. Same thing here. I don’t hate nonvirgin girls, or look down on them, or anything like that. But personally, I couldn’t date one, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Once again, really sorry, didn’t mean any harm.

I happen to disagree with some of your reasoning simply because I believe from the way you worded your posts that there are some underlying unhealthy issues (insecurity, etc.).

That said, you have every right in the world to expect a spouse to have the same standards as you, you have every right to exclude people with certain characteristics from being a possible spouse, and you are under no obligation to marry anyone should you so choose. We all have our dealbreakers. I just encourage people to not set their standards so high that at age 60 they’re sitting around regretting that they never got married and had a family.

 

[Carlj1497]

I just encourage people to not set their standards so high that at age 60 they’re sitting around regretting that they never got married and had a family.

So what you’re saying is, it is impossible for me to find a wife with qualities that I have? You just assume that I won’t find anyone? I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with what you said. I highly doubt that by age 60, I wouldn’t have been able to find someone who has morals and values, who has self control, and who saved their virginity for marriage. I honestly can’t believe some of these responses I got. It’s almost as if people are suggesting that losing virginity outside of marriage is something that I should take lightly, and that it’s wrong for me to not overlook it. For the last time, I don’t want to offend anyone, so please, try not to offend me

I really hate how people have been arguing in this thread. I was just asking a simple question. I’ve gotten a lot of mixed answers, and I’m really, really confused

Should I keep my standards? Or should I accept women who aren’t virgins? Or should I go out and lose my virginity, just so I can say, “You’re not a virgin? Well, me neither.” (Believe me, I’ve thought about doing that).

Let me try to make this clear… again. I can’t handle dating and/or marrying a woman who has had a sexual past. Now, is this okay, yes or no? That’s all I ask.