Is It "Wrong" To Claim Someone Is In Heaven?

[Sirach2]

My dad has told this story many times and I finally said to him, how do you know the sign was from your father and not satan? Do you really think that G-d is your puppet and jumps at your command?

Many devout and saintly persons will know the difference between signs that come from God and those that are bogus. Some call it “discernment of spirits” - a gift of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you do not know anything about the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, that was rather insulting to call God our puppet. That is not what St. Therese did when she received her authentic sign from God. She implored Him with an earnest and pious petition born from love of her Papa, and knowing how deeply he lived his religious faith. It was not a casual flippant prayer like reading tarot cards.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

I have instructions in my funeral arrangements that no one ‘canonize’ me and that the priest at the funeral mass give a rousing sermon on Purgatory. I’m sure that won’t happen to the extent I’d like it but since I won’t have a say afterwards I might as well make it known now.

I do a lot for the church, externally I live a ‘good Christian life,’ and family and friends may be ‘comforted’ by the thought that I’ve gone to heaven but I know what a weak and miserable sinner I have been throughout my life. I’d like as many prayers as possible after I die to help me progress through Purgatory on to my eternal reward.

I sincerely believe it to be a trick of the devil to make anyone outside the Magisterium of the Church proclaim or assume anyone is in heaven. More than one saint has been visited by souls in Purgatory, souls of persons anyone might have assumed had gone to heaven already. These souls all need our prayers and masses said for them.

 

[dailey]

Many devout and saintly persons will know the difference between signs that come from God and those that are bogus. Some call it “discernment of spirits” - a gift of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you do not know anything about the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, that was rather insulting to call God our puppet. That is not what St. Therese did when she received her authentic sign from God. She implored Him with an earnest and pious petition born from love of her Papa, and knowing how deeply he lived his religious faith. It was not a casual flippant prayer like reading tarot cards.

The bottom line is this…instead of wasting time asking for signs from the dead (which is something the church discourages) we should instead be praying and making sacrifices for their souls. I do realize that God does allow some people visions, such as the saints,but I do not believe every single sign is from God and furthermore, I think what is really insulting is to command God to let you know where your loved one is instead of trusting in his mercy.

 

[Sirach2]

The bottom line is this…instead of wasting time asking for signs from the dead (which is something the church discourages) we should instead be praying and making sacrifices for their souls. I do realize that God does allow some people visions, such as the saints,but I do not believe every single sign is from God and furthermore, I think what is really insulting is to command God to let you know where your loved one is instead of trusting in his mercy.

Your choice of words is again rather demeaning. Nobody has said that a person “commands God” – it is a prayer of petition, usually phrased in submission to His holy will. It is a mercy if He grants it, and a person does not need be a saint in order to receive His response. Dailey, you don’t seem to be a faith-filled person to me, or you would not be phrasing your responses in this way.

 

[dailey]

Your choice of words is again rather demeaning. Nobody has said that a person “commands God” – it is a prayer of petition, usually phrased in submission to His holy will. It is a mercy if He grants it, and a person does not need be a saint in order to receive His response. Dailey, you don’t seem to be a faith-filled person to me, or you would not be phrasing your responses in this way.

I am perfectly okay with you thinking I am not a faith-filled person…now if it was my priest or family members saying it, well then I would be upset.

At any rate, back to the title of this thread which is whether it is wrong to say someone is in heaven. The answer, according to the churches teachings, is yes, it is not our place to say where anyone goes after they pass. Not even the pope can say where someone’s final resting place is (unless they are a saint). Not much more to discuss. Hope everyone has a nice day!

 

[Sirach2]

I am perfectly okay with you thinking I am not a faith-filled person…now if it was my priest or family members saying it, well then I would be upset.

At any rate, back to the title of this thread which is whether it is wrong to say someone is in heaven. The answer, according to the churches teachings, is yes, it is not our place to say where anyone goes after they pass. Not even the pope can say where someone’s final resting place is (unless they are a saint). Not much more to discuss. Hope everyone has a nice day!

I really don’t believe that when a family member is sitting in a funeral mass and hears the priest say that their loved one is “with God” that they believe his words verbatim. Sure, they hope it is true, but our faith has always taught us that there is a liklihood they may not be there yet. It is a very condoling figure of speech at a time when emotions are frayed with grief. There is no Church regulation that says a priest may not use this type of language. I ask that you produce it, if you believe everyone is so very wrong and/or forbidden.

I worked in my Church’s rectory and scheduled many masses for the deceased. Not a single person that came in said to me that the stipend for their loved one’s mass is “just in case.” They just lovingly scheduled the mass.

 

[thistle]

Thank you for all the responses, especially thistle. You always give the answers that come straight from the churches teachings and I really appreciate that.

I know I have told this story before but I will say it again. When my dad’s father died, he asked him for a sign that he was in heaven. Within a few seconds a coin dropped from seemingly nowhere and my dad felt happy and content that his father was in heaven. My dad has told this story many times and I finally said to him, how do you know the sign was from your father and not satan? Do you really think that G-d is your puppet and jumps at your command? My thoughts are this. Mother Mary said that** many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them. ** If we think all of our loved ones go straight to heaven then why should we pray and make sacrifices in their name? We wouldn’t. Isn’t this exactly what satan wants? Us not to pray for the dead? I hope when I die no one assumes I am heaven and prays for me every single day!

Souls go to Hell because people have freely chosen to commit a mortal sin and die unrepentant.

 

[YADA]

I am perfectly okay with you thinking I am not a faith-filled person…now if it was my priest or family members saying it, well then I would be upset.

At any rate, back to the title of this thread which is whether it is wrong to say someone is in heaven. The answer, according to the churches teachings, is yes, it is not our place to say where anyone goes after they pass. Not even the pope can say where someone’s final resting place is (unless they are a saint). Not much more to discuss. Hope everyone has a nice day!

You are not correct in this assertion about it being “wrong” to claim a person is in heaven.

The Church teaches that it is God who judges.our salvation and ultimate resting place - this is true …

However there is no Church teaching saying it is wrong to believe someone is in Heaven - and in fact the Church is very free with stating that Saints and others are in Heaven … this assurance of their being in Heaven is manifested in signs, their lives, miracles, etc … and you do realize that by the time the Church would ‘canonize’ a Saint - they have long presumed to have arrived in Heaven … had people believing they were in Heaven [especially those who begin the process to have a person canonized] for years - even centuries in some cases … it is not the process of canonization that opens Heavens gates to them

What the Church does not do … is promote belief about those who have been condemned to the eternal damnation … they do not say Joe Bow is in the place of damnation … nor other notorious bad mass murdering individuals from history you might name -

 

[thistle]

You are not correct in this assertion about it being “wrong” to claim a person is in heaven.

The Church teaches that it is God who judges.our salvation and ultimate resting place - this is true …

However there is no Church teaching saying it is wrong to believe someone is in Heaven - and in fact the Church is very free with stating that Saints and others are in Heaven … this assurance of their being in Heaven is manifested in signs, their lives, miracles, etc … and you do realize that by the time the Church would ‘canonize’ a Saint - they have long presumed to have arrived in Heaven … had people believing they were in Heaven [especially those who begin the process to have a person canonized] for years - even centuries in some cases … it is not the process of canonization that opens Heavens gates to them

What the Church does not do … is promote belief about those who have been condemned to the eternal damnation … they do not say Joe Bow is in the place of damnation … nor other notorious bad mass murdering individuals from history you might name -

“wrong” is probably not the correct word as it is not a crime nor a sin to claim a loved one is in Heaven. However, it does not make sense because only God knows if our loved one is saved or not so what is the point in claiming something that we cannot know. We should simply hope and pray that our loved one is saved. We certainly cannot claim that as if it were a fact.

 

[YADA]

“wrong” is probably not the correct word as it is not a crime nor a sin to claim a loved one is in Heaven. However, it does not make sense because only God knows if our loved one is saved or not so what is the point in claiming something that we cannot know. We should simply hope and pray that our loved one is saved. We certainly cannot claim that as if it were a fact.

And when you pray for the intercession of the Saints - are they in Heaven or in between ? How do you know with certainty? … Thus - in that you are correct … we [not you or me nor the Church] can prove to another beyond a shadow of a doubt whether someone is in heaven or not …

As Catholics we might say “except for Mary as that is a dogma” … though many of our Protestant brethren would say not even Mary is in Heaven … and perhaps the Good Thief - because the scriptures tell us that Jesus told him he would be in Paradise that day … however - no one was there with a camcorder …

So we cannot know with certainty who - if anyone - is in heaven … Not St Francis, not St Benedict, not St Jude, not St Barbara, not St Kateri Tekakwitha, St Lucy … nor someone’s father, mother, sibling or spouse … And yet - it is possible to have great certitude about whether individuals are there or not … in the same manner the Church does - a person can have great faith that a person is in Heaven … evidenced by their life, miracles, signs, messages, the legacy [love of Christ] they leave in those around them, etc

We mere mortals do receive revelations … messages from Heaven … the age of public revelation is past - but not individual revelation … take Fatima - that was a private revelation … no one is bound to believe it even occurred [though the Church says it is worthy of belief] - none of the messages are binding on any person except the ones to whom it was given.

Thus you are free to accept that the Saints on in heaven on the basis of the Churches testimony … but as I said - for the church to make that decree - common people have held that belief and brought that truth to the attention of the Church - its not the other way around … and you are free to believe that no others - like your friends and family - are there but only hope that they may some day attain that reality …

There is much about Heaven and the time between this life and the next that is untenable to our human mind … we tend to like linear timelines and events that occur in succession … but our Lord stands out side of time - He is the Alpha and the Omega … He was in the beginning - He enter into time - but then returned to eternity … He will be at the End and yest there is no end …

I do not have a clue whether some of my relatives and friends are in Heaven and I pray fervently that they are there or will attain that reward - and there are a few for which I have no doubt - they are there … I received the message of assurance - a gift from our Lord … you may doubt it - I do not -

Blessings upon you

 

[ccmcmg]

Mother Mary said that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them. If we think all of our loved ones go straight to heaven then why should we pray and make sacrifices in their name? We wouldn’t. Isn’t this exactly what satan wants? Us not to pray for the dead? I hope when I die no one assumes I am heaven and prays for me every single day!

If we are in purgatory, then yes we need prayers, but we are not going to go to hell because no one prays for us. Purgatory is on the way to Heaven, not hell. I would take that quote (source?) as we should pray for our fellow living brothers and sisters before they reach that judgment day of heaven, hell or purgatory.

 

[dailey]

If we are in purgatory, then yes we need prayers, but we are not going to go to hell because no one prays for us. Purgatory is on the way to Heaven, not hell. I would take that quote (source?) as we should pray for our fellow living brothers and sisters before they reach that judgment day of heaven, hell or purgatory.

I am so glad I saw this last commet of this thread this morning because I don’t think most people realize that, with God, there is no “time”. Here is a quote from Padre Pio…"One day Padre Pio told his doctor: “I’m praying for the good death of my great great grandfather.” “But he died more than one hundred years ago!” “Remember that for God there is no past and no future, and everything is present. So God made use at that time of the prayers I’m saying now.”

As far as the source for Mother Mary’s comment, if you google the quote you will find many valid sites that support it. I’m just unsure how to do that on my ipad, lol!

 

[mikekle]

I am so glad I saw this last commet of this thread this morning because I don’t think most people realize that, with God, there is no “time”. Here is a quote from Padre Pio…"One day Padre Pio told his doctor: “I’m praying for the good death of my great great grandfather.” “But he died more than one hundred years ago!” “Remember that for God there is no past and no future, and everything is present. So God made use at that time of the prayers I’m saying now.”

As far as the source for Mother Mary’s comment, if you google the quote you will find many valid sites that support it. I’m just unsure how to do that on my ipad, lol!

You bring up a good point about time in the afterlife, People alive tend to think in terms of time though, as in, how long will it take, or how long will I be there, when we die, there is no time, so I think this is something we cannot even comprehend, so if a person is sitting in purgatory, hell, or heaven, they definitely will not be experiencing any of those places in terms of ‘time’, like a jail sentence, I cannot imagine what it will be like with no time at all, but i can be sure of one thing…it WILL be much different.

 

[cerad2]

… there is no time, so I think this is something we cannot even comprehend,…

It’s no so much that we can’t comprehend it. More accurate to say that it’s incomprehensible.

 

[ccmcmg]

You bring up a good point about time in the afterlife, People alive tend to think in terms of time though, as in, how long will it take, or how long will I be there, when we die, there is no time, so I think this is something we cannot even comprehend, so if a person is sitting in purgatory, hell, or heaven, they definitely will not be experiencing any of those places in terms of ‘time’, like a jail sentence, I cannot imagine what it will be like with no time at all, but i can be sure of one thing…it WILL be much different.

If there is no concept of ‘time’ in purgatory, then what is the purpose of indulgences?

Once you are in hell, there is no turning back. Once you are in Heaven or purgatory, there is no going to hell.

 

[thistle]

I am so glad I saw this last commet of this thread this morning because I don’t think most people realize that, with God, there is no “time”. Here is a quote from Padre Pio…"One day Padre Pio told his doctor: “I’m praying for the good death of my great great grandfather.” “But he died more than one hundred years ago!” “Remember that for God there is no past and no future, and everything is present. So God made use at that time of the prayers I’m saying now.”

As far as the source for Mother Mary’s comment, if you google the quote you will find many valid sites that support it. I’m just unsure how to do that on my ipad, lol!

Let’s not get carried away with the concept of outside time. Whoever is in Hell they are there for ever. No prayers by their descendents will ever change that.

 

[mikekle]

Let’s not get carried away with the concept of outside time. Whoever is in Hell they are there for ever. No prayers by their descendents will ever change that.

Well, not everyone believes that, I tend to believe God would NEVER abandon ANY of his creations…at any point, whether they are alive or dead. If this were true and someone in hell was completely removed from God, that would mean Gods love for that person only existed while the person was alive on earth, and that is a short time period, as we all know.

I believe God will save a person at any time if they are sincere and call out to him.

Furthermore, if Gods love really only applied while people are alive, no matter what choices those people make in life, then Gods love is definitely not eternal. We are taught God loves all his creations and not just when they are alive.

 

[ccmcmg]

I had a similar experience this past summer, one of my uncles committed suicide, but he was a very devout catholic, and went to mass every day of the week and would pray thru out the day, but he did not like to work and lived off credit cards his entire life, we found his balance on one card was close to $210K.!!! and once he could not make the monthly payments, instead of becoming homeless, he slit his wrists and throat in a hotel room, apparently he told a friend he was going to do this and why he was doing it…purely financial and he did not want to get a job…go figure??

What upset me, is they had his funeral in a catholic church, I even asked my dad about this, and he said the church has eased its views on this over the years, it still did not make sense to me and it really upset me when the priest and other lectors got up and talked about how our uncle is now with God and at peace, no longer has worldly concerns to worry about, etc. I was talking with my sisters husband afterwards and we agreed this funeral should not have been in a catholic church, and those nice things should not have been said, as he killed himself over payments he could not make and laziness out of not wanting to work…while we dont know for sure, **I am fairly sure my uncle is NOT with God in heaven and if he is, then we all have mis-interpretted the bible entirely.
**
I think they said these things just to make others feel comfortable, namely his brothers, but they really should not have done this…especially given the circumstances of why he killed himself.

Well, not everyone believes that, I tend to believe God would NEVER abandon ANY of his creations…at any point, whether they are alive or dead. If this were true and someone in hell was completely removed from God, that would mean Gods love for that person only existed while the person was alive on earth, and that is a short time period, as we all know.

I believe God will save a person at any time if they are sincere and call out to him.

Furthermore, if Gods love really only applied while people are alive, no matter what choices those people make in life, then Gods love is definitely not eternal. We are taught God loves all his creations and not just when they are alive.

So, how do you reconcile the two above posts of yours; if your uncle is in hell because of his suicide, yet you say God doesn’t abandon people once they are dead? It just seems your two above posts are saying the opposite.

 

[Norm640]

My mother died suddenly over 2 weeks in October of 2008. Right before she died she received the last rites. At the funeral mass, our priest said she is now “part of the community of saints”. And I believe him.

Why do I believe him?

The day she died I felt her presence and the most calming peace I ever felt. Then in January of 2012 I felt it again and didn’t know why I was feeling it, only to find out that she and her mom (my grandma) appeared to my cousin Carrie when Carrie had a near-death experience that same day (Carrie has a horrible auto-immune disease that hardens veins and produces clots). They told her to keep fighting. Carrie said it was such a beautiful peaceful experience.

I believe mom is at rest in heaven. It is wrong to claim it without discernment and proof. But I don’t think it is wrong. And I actually think it is helpful.

 

[thistle]

Well, not everyone believes that, I tend to believe God would NEVER abandon ANY of his creations…at any point, whether they are alive or dead. If this were true and someone in hell was completely removed from God, that would mean Gods love for that person only existed while the person was alive on earth, and that is a short time period, as we all know.

I believe God will save a person at any time if they are sincere and call out to him.

Furthermore, if Gods love really only applied while people are alive, no matter what choices those people make in life, then Gods love is definitely not eternal. We are taught God loves all his creations and not just when they are alive.

Jesus himself said Hell is forever and that is what the Church teaches. Hell will exist even after the end of times.
Are you saying Jesus and his Church are both wrong?