Is It "Wrong" To Claim Someone Is In Heaven?

[Norm640]

Hell is our own making. God won’t ever abandon us, but we have to want to be helped. So that is why when we end up in hell we do it to ourselves. It is a real place. God doesn’t abandon. We abandon God. Pride is what keeps us in sin. Pride is the essence of hell.

 

[mikekle]

So, how do you reconcile the two above posts of yours; if your uncle is in hell because of his suicide, yet you say God doesn’t abandon people once they are dead? It just seems your two above posts are saying the opposite.

I do think my uncle is in hell, but I cant be sure, only God knows what is in his heart. I would say it all depends on what the person feels and wants, if they are content without God and feel this way when they come in front of him, then I would assume they would quite happy to go to hell, but on the other hand, if someone had led a life without God in it, and came before God upon their death and asked for Gods forgiveness, I do not think that person would be sent to hell.

 

[thistle]

I do think my uncle is in hell, but I cant be sure, only God knows what is in his heart. I would say it all depends on what the person feels and wants, if they are content without God and feel this way when they come in front of him, then I would assume they would quite happy to go to hell, but on the other hand, if someone had led a life without God in it, and came before God upon their death and asked for Gods forgiveness, I do not think that person would be sent to hell.

You only have until you die to repent and ask for God’s forgiveness. After death it is too late.
The Church clearly teaches that the state of your soul at death determines your destination. If you die in a state of grace you are saved. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell. There is no chance after you die to repent.

 

[mikekle]

You only have until you die to repent and ask for God’s forgiveness. After death it is too late.
The Church clearly teaches that the state of your soul at death determines your destination. If you die in a state of grace you are saved. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell. There is no chance after you die to repent.

Well, then we will just have to agree that we disagree about this.

IMO, it would not make sense if Gods forgiveness was ONLY available while we were alive, in the bible it clearly says our souls are eternal and so is Gods love, it also says Gods love for us is so great, it goes beyond a parents love, and any parent continues to love and wish the best for children that have passed on. but no point in arguing about this, I think its clear our opinions will not be swayed.

 

[ccmcmg]

Well, then we will just have to agree that we disagree about this.

IMO, it would not make sense if Gods forgiveness was ONLY available while we were alive, in the bible it clearly says our souls are eternal and so is Gods love, it also says Gods love for us is so great, it goes beyond a parents love, and any parent continues to love and wish the best for children that have passed on. but no point in arguing about this, I think its clear our opinions will not be swayed.

So, while reading a chart on the differences between religions, I came across a difference between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, of which you seem to agree with the Mormon perspective. Do you have a Mormon background? (Just curious; that might explain the difference of belief of this matter)

Second chance after death? Mormon: Yes, during a period of “learning and preparation” after death Mainstream Christianity: No

Hell? Mormon: The wicked enter an unpleasant “spirit prison” prior to judgment; after that, only the most obstinately wicked (like Satan) will be consigned to “Outer Darkness” for eternity. Mainstream Christianity: Place (or state of being) of eternal torment and distance from God.

Apparently, upon further reading, JWs also believe in second chance after death.

 

[thistle]

Well, then we will just have to agree that we disagree about this.

IMO, it would not make sense if Gods forgiveness was ONLY available while we were alive, in the bible it clearly says our souls are eternal and so is Gods love, it also says Gods love for us is so great, it goes beyond a parents love, and any parent continues to love and wish the best for children that have passed on. but no point in arguing about this, I think its clear our opinions will not be swayed.

This has nothing to do with opinions. These are the infallible teachings of the Church. As a Catholic you must believe them.
There is no chance to repent after death and your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death.

To reject these teachings would be heresy.

CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

CCC 1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[YADA]

This has nothing to do with opinions. These are the infallible teachings of the Church. As a Catholic you must believe them.
There is no chance to repent after death and your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death.

To reject these teachings would be heresy.

CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

CCC 1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Yes - at the moment of our death we will stand before God and either receive salvation or damnation …

However, - even for the man’s uncle who committed suicide - it is impossible for us to determine what transpired between them and God at the moment of their death …

The person who rejects God and takes their life could repent before their death … or not we cannot know this with any certainty … all we can do is look at the outward signs - not the full reality.

A person could seem to be rejecting God by killing themselves - but they maybe free of sin because they may not meet the criteria -
1] Serious nature of the sin - Grave matter - suicide is a grave matter,
2] Fully aware of the sinfulness of the act - knowing that suicide is sinful
3] Freely and fully decide to commit the sinful act - suicide
It is possible that a person who is mentally ill may not meet all three - and it is impossible for us to know if all three existed … mental illness is real, just as cancer is real …

Thankfully - We entrust our souls to an All Knowing, Loving and Just Judge - who does fully - completely know our hearts and our lives

 

[camerons]

God alone can judge. To say anyone is in heaven or hell is to be the judge. You cant do that no matter what the circumstances.When someone dies I pray for them and leave judgement up to God.

 

[Norm640]

God alone can judge. To say anyone is in heaven or hell is to be the judge. You cant do that no matter what the circumstances.When someone dies I pray for them and leave judgement up to God.

We don’t have to stick our hands into a fire to know it is hot, right? In the same way God gives us signals, graces, little miracles to increase our faith. Confirming someone is in heaven is one of His ways to help us believe.

Jesus told us also to look for signs. For the end of the world, but in all things. If Jesus gives us the wisdom to know something, how, then, is that wrong?

By this logic, we can’t say that Mary is in Heaven. Because we don’t know “for sure”. And we can’t say that any of the Apostles are in Heaven. Is Peter at the Pearly Gates? We just don’t know.

Again, I was told by my priest that my mom is in the community of saints. I felt her spirit the day she died, and she appeared to my cousin Carrie during her Near Death Experience. Her message to Carrie was to fight to stay alive. There is nothing sinister in this message. Mom is in Heaven.

God gave us a brain to receive his signs and make judgments, people. We need to use our God-given talents of discernment. God doesn’t want us walking around like idiots. He wants to engage us.

If we can’t say someone is in Heaven, then we have to question every single miracle ever done to increase our faith, every cannonization, etc.

Stop over-analyzing it and embrace God’s gifts to us. We are not to judge someone’s salvation and eternal resting place, but if God gives us the tools to discern it, why reject that.

???

 

[pnewton]

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

While we cannot have absolute certainty of anything, we can have moral certainty that someone is in Heaven or bound for Heaven. That is the Gospel. It is good news, not meh news As Catholics, we have faith in the Sacraments and the promise of Jesus that what we bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. So, I say, no, it is not wrong to say someone is in Heaven, or at least on the way. Even in the worst situations, we can still resort to Hope, as opposed to despair, of the salvation of a soul and in the mercy of God.

 

[camerons]

We don’t have to stick our hands into a fire to know it is hot, right? In the same way God gives us signals, graces, little miracles to increase our faith. Confirming someone is in heaven is one of His ways to help us believe.

Jesus told us also to look for signs. For the end of the world, but in all things. If Jesus gives us the wisdom to know something, how, then, is that wrong?

By this logic, we can’t say that Mary is in Heaven. Because we don’t know “for sure”. And we can’t say that any of the Apostles are in Heaven. Is Peter at the Pearly Gates? We just don’t know.

Again, I was told by my priest that my mom is in the community of saints. I felt her spirit the day she died, and she appeared to my cousin Carrie during her Near Death Experience. Her message to Carrie was to fight to stay alive. There is nothing sinister in this message. Mom is in Heaven.

God gave us a brain to receive his signs and make judgments, people. We need to use our God-given talents of discernment. God doesn’t want us walking around like idiots. He wants to engage us.

If we can’t say someone is in Heaven, then we have to question every single miracle ever done to increase our faith, every cannonization, etc.

Stop over-analyzing it and embrace God’s gifts to us. We are not to judge someone’s salvation and eternal resting place, but if God gives us the tools to discern it, why reject that.

???

Can we say the apostles are in heaven? I don’t really know.

Can we say Mary is in heaven? She was assumed directly into heaven.

As for people in our day, you can get to know if a person is generally good by their actions. Still we cant know where they end up. The church canonizes in a way of formerly saying: hey if you want a catholic hero look here! It doesn’t mean they are in heaven no matter what.

Jesus is in heaven. Mary is in heaven. I hope more are, I guess we will find out later.

 

[thistle]

Yes - at the moment of our death we will stand before God and either receive salvation or damnation …

However, - even for the man’s uncle who committed suicide - it is impossible for us to determine what transpired between them and God at the moment of their death …

The person who rejects God and takes their life could repent before their death … or not we cannot know this with any certainty … all we can do is look at the outward signs - not the full reality.

A person could seem to be rejecting God by killing themselves - but they maybe free of sin because they may not meet the criteria -
1] Serious nature of the sin - Grave matter - suicide is a grave matter,
2] Fully aware of the sinfulness of the act - knowing that suicide is sinful
3] Freely and fully decide to commit the sinful act - suicide
It is possible that a person who is mentally ill may not meet all three - and it is impossible for us to know if all three existed … mental illness is real, just as cancer is real …

Thankfully - We entrust our souls to an All Knowing, Loving and Just Judge - who does fully - completely know our hearts and our lives

I absolutely agree. We don’t know what takes place just before a person’s death or what the state of a person’s soul is at death.
My concern is that Mikekle, who is a Catholic, does not seem to understand that there is no chance to repent after death and that this is an infallible teaching and not just my opinion.

 

[roselily]

I read,

**1Corinthians 15

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end,**

 

[pnewton]

to know if a person is generally good by their actions. Still we cant know where they end up. The church canonizes in a way of formerly saying: hey if you want a catholic hero look here! It doesn’t mean they are in heaven no matter what. .

Canonization is an infallible statement someone is in heaven. That is why, as a rule, two miracles are required credited to their intercession.

 

[mikekle]

I absolutely agree. We don’t know what takes place just before a person’s death or what the state of a person’s soul is at death.
My concern is that Mikekle, who is a Catholic, does not seem to understand that there is no chance to repent after death and that this is an infallible teaching and not just my opinion.

Well, then it can be said Gods love, grace, and forgiveness are only applicable to us when we are alive and are not eternal (for everyone).

 

[YADA]

Well, then it can be said Gods love, grace, and forgiveness are only applicable to us when we are alive and are not eternal (for everyone).

The Church can only teach want has been entrusted to her … that the way to salvation is through Jesus Christ and the Church He [Jesus] established …

The Church cannot teach that all path ways to Heaven are the same … that is not what was entrusted to her …

The Church cannot teach that you can get to heaven after your earthly life has ended … that is not what was entrusted to her …

The Church also recognizes and teaches that God is the ultimate judge of our salvation or damnation - for only God can know our hearts - our soul - our relationship with Him …

what exactly happens at the moment of our death is knowable only to God - it is a profound mystery … the what, the how, the where fores …

All things are possible with God and God is Love … Love cannot desire our damnation - thus - our fate rests in our hands … it is our choice to separate ourselves from God that is the path to damnation …

 

[ccmcmg]

Well, then it can be said Gods love, grace, and forgiveness are only applicable to us when we are alive and are not eternal (for everyone).

That is not what is being said. Have you ever loved someone that has turned his back on you? Who has continually disobeyed you? Who has hurt you and invited others to hurt you? Love sometimes does mean not having that person around you or in your life. It is us who makes the choice to part ourselves from God by sinning. God (and the Catholic Church, as well as most Protestant churches) has said that there is no chance for redemption after death. At the moment before death becomes permanent, during that last heartbeat, that last brain wave…we don’t know what happens between us and God, until it happens. In the meantime, we must TRUST in what God has provided us as answers, in the Bible and in the Church. Nowhere has it been indicated that God will let us do whatever we want on earth, and then let us ‘change our minds’ after death and decide that we want to be with him. That would not be just to all those who did love and follow God as He has directed.

I will ask again: are you coming to this from a JW or Mormon background? Your profile says ‘raised Catholic’ but many who are raised in one religion do not practice it. Your statements do not reflect Catholic and most Protestant teaching. Plus, please think again how you have ‘condemned’ your uncle to hell, but say that others are not. Please open your heart for your uncle (and I’m very sorry for your family’s loss), as well as open your heart to the truth and love of our God. He is a loving and JUST God. Sometimes, justice is painful.

 

[camerons]

Canonization is an infallible statement someone is in heaven. That is why, as a rule, two miracles are required credited to their intercession.

I talked to my priest about this today. He didn’t seem certain but he doesn’t think that canonization is infallible neither do I. But I don’t have any documentation that says one way or the other.

 

[pnewton]

I talked to my priest about this today. He didn’t seem certain but he doesn’t think that canonization is infallible neither do I. But I don’t have any documentation that says one way or the other.

I only know what my betters have taught:

catholic.com/quickquestions/did-the-church-declare-that-st-christopher-is-a-myth

Second, it would not matter even if there were no Christopher. Papal infallibility applies only to those canonizations that a pope has done.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CACANONI.HTM

The pope cannot by solemn definition induce errors concerning faith and morals into the teaching of the universal Church. Should the Church hold up for universal veneration a man’s life and habits that in reality led to [his] damnation, it would lead the faithful into error. It is now theologically certain that the solemn canonization of a saint is an infallible and irrevocable decision of the supreme pontiff.

 

[thistle]

I talked to my priest about this today. He didn’t seem certain but **he doesn’t think that canonization is infallible **neither do I. But I don’t have any documentation that says one way or the other.

It is an infallible declaration that the canonized person is in Heaven. You are not obliged to pray to that saint for intercession but you are obliged to believe that person is in Heaven.