Is it wrong to not oppose secular gay marriage?

[shelby_sun]

The Catholic Church did not invent marriage as an institution limited to heterosexual couples. Neither did the state.

Marriage is a pre-political and natural phenomenon that arises out of the nature of human beings.

The Catholic Church, along with virtually every religion and culture in the world recognizes and supports this natural institution because without it, no society will exist or flourish.

It is an understanding of First Amendment jurisprudence that the mere fact that a civil law harmonizes or agrees with religious beliefs is not grounds for finding an Establishment Clause (Establishment of a religion) violation.

Certainly, if the civil law granted recognition only to sacramental marriages as defined in the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church, this would violate the Establishment Clause. But no law does this.

The Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality and marriage is Catholic because it is TRUE, not true because it is Catholic.

If it were based simply on Catholic teaching, our opponents could say:
“You Catholics are entitled to your opinion, but that is not binding on others.” Actually the TRUTH is the reason that same-sex relationships should not be afforded legal status.

I am not saying same sex “marriages” are right or wrong. I do not believe they belong in the Catholic Church, but the government should not base its decision on any religious belief. We still have separation of church and state in the US. fI all the people who are against SSM spent as much time and effort fighting this issue and fighting this law, we surely would not have SSM in the US, but they didn’t and stating their cause on sites like these didn’t help, did it? Bottom line is those advocating to allow legal SSM stood up and fought for their cause, opponent just blew smoke.

Only God knows what the truth is. All the people on this site that speak as if they know the truth instead of defending their faith and beliefs just turn me off. You are not God so you do not KNOW what the truth truly is.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I am not saying same sex “marriages” are right or wrong. I do not believe they belong in the Catholic Church, but the government should not base its decision on any religious belief. We still have separation of church and state in the US.

That is what I indicated above. The government does not base any laws on the teachings of the Catholic Church. Likewise, the Church is not asking the government to do so.

fI all the people who are against SSM spent as much time and effort fighting this issue and fighting this law, we surely would not have SSM in the US, but they didn’t and stating their cause on sites like these didn’t help, did it? Bottom line is those advocating to allow legal SSM stood up and fought for their cause, opponent just blew smoke.

Very true…“those advocating to allow legal SSM stood up and fought for their cause”

And that cause is the acceptance of homosexuality as normal. SSM is just a step in that direction.

Only God knows what the truth is. All the people on this site that speak as if they know the truth instead of defending their faith and beliefs just turn me off. You are not God so you do not KNOW what the truth truly is.

If you acknowledge that truth exists, then we can discuss and even argue about whether or not I or the Catholic Church correctly understands the truth of this matter. But if you deny that there is such a thing as truth, that is, the truth, not just my truth or your truth, then the matter becomes merely an exercise of raw political power in terms of who has more votes to impose an agenda, and that is what makes it ultimately tyrannical

The truth about homosexuality is self-evident. Self-evident truths are not taught, they are revealed.

The Earth is not flat, it is a sphere. That is a self-evident truth.

The self-evident truth of homosexuality is that it is an objectively disordered condition deserving of social disapproval because it spreads disease and dysfunction.

 

[shelby_sun]

That is what I indicated above. The government does not base any laws on the teachings of the Catholic Church. Likewise, the Church is not asking the government to do so.

Very true…“those advocating to allow legal SSM stood up and fought for their cause”

And that cause is the acceptance of homosexuality as normal. SSM is just a step in that direction.

If you acknowledge that truth exists, then we can discuss and even argue about whether or not I or the Catholic Church correctly understands the truth of this matter. But if you deny that there is such a thing as truth, that is, the truth, not just my truth or your truth, then the matter becomes merely an exercise of raw political power in terms of who has more votes to impose an agenda, and that is what makes it ultimately tyrannical

The truth about homosexuality is self-evident. Self-evident truths are not taught, they are revealed.

The Earth is not flat, it is a sphere. That is a self-evident truth.

The self-evident truth of homosexuality is that it is an objectively disordered condition deserving of social disapproval because it spreads disease and dysfunction.

No the Earth not being flat is not self evident truth, it is a proven fact based on scientific data and picture, oh yes and Nasa’s mission to the moon. Truth is proven, beliefs are not. The Catholic Church cannot prove what they believe the truth is and more than you. That is why it is called faith and belief.

Maybe homosexuality is not a “normal” condition just like a baby with 2 heads or no arms, or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts. “It” (homosexuality) doesn’t spread disease, people do, homosexuals and heterosexuals are both to blame for VD.

 

[Rau]

…The Catholic Church cannot prove what they believe the truth is [any] more than you [can]. That is why it is called faith and belief.

Which claimed truth is on your mind?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

No the Earth not being flat is not self evident truth, it is a proven fact based on scientific data and picture, oh yes and Nasa’s mission to the moon. Truth is proven, beliefs are not. The Catholic Church cannot prove what they believe the truth is and more than you. That is why it is called faith and belief.

Let me try to simplify this for you.

Everyone BELIEVED the Earth was flat. Then Columbus REVEALED that it was round.

That is a self evident truth.

Catholics believe that the Earth is round, not because the Church says so…but because it is true.

Maybe homosexuality is not a “normal” condition just like a baby with 2 heads or no arms, or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts. “It” (homosexuality) doesn’t spread disease, people do, homosexuals and heterosexuals are both to blame for VD.

It is very cruel to compare it to a malformed baby or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts to homosexuality. These children have no control over their physical problems.

Homosexuality is NOT natural or innate.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is innately homosexual. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.”

We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that his or her homosexuality is natural Self-declared homosexuals can’t even prove that they really believe that their
homosexuality is innate.

 

[randomusername]

Let me try to simplify this for you.

Everyone BELIEVED the Earth was flat. Then Columbus REVEALED that it was round.

That is a self evident truth.

Catholics believe that the Earth is round, not because the Church says so…but because it is true.

It is very cruel to compare it to a malformed baby or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts to homosexuality. These children have no control over their physical problems.

Homosexuality is NOT natural or innate.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is innately homosexual. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.”

We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that his or her homosexuality is natural Self-declared homosexuals can’t even prove that they really believe that their
homosexuality is innate.

People knew the world was round long before Columbus. There are 12th century pictures of people walking around a globe. The greeks also knew it thousands of years before that but their knowledge was lost and it was rediscovered. But it was rediscovered long before Columbus.

 

[Rau]

It is very cruel to compare it to a malformed baby or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts to homosexuality. These children have no control over their physical problems.

Homosexuality is NOT natural or innate.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is innately homosexual. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.”

We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that his or her homosexuality is natural Self-declared homosexuals can’t even prove that they really believe that their
homosexuality is innate.

You believe all homosexuals choose their orientation? You believe they all pretend or lie? Certainly that is not revealed truth!

 

[Elizium23]

While we are dealing with scientific facts, let’s explore a few related to sexuality. Only when a man has sex with a woman in the natural way can a baby be conceived. FACT. The only appropriate place for a penis is in a vagina, and vice versa. FACT. These are things that have been scientifically proven to us, and it is through the science of observing the natural world that we have come to understand Divine Law. This is far from uncritical belief without proof. This is TRUTH based on EVIDENCE which surrounds us. The Catholic Church and her teachings are somewhat irrelevant in the debate of homosexual marriage. Traditional marriage can be supported in an entirely secular context and that is exactly what the “Discussing Marriage” project endeavors to do.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

People knew the world was round long before Columbus. There are 12th century pictures of people walking around a globe. The greeks also knew it thousands of years before that but their knowledge was lost and it was rediscovered. But it was rediscovered long before Columbus.

OK, Thank you for the additional information.

You might pass this on to shelby sun. She credits NASA with the revelation.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

You believe all homosexuals choose their orientation? You believe they all pretend or lie?

Since the “gay” movement can’t prove it, the assertion that homosexuals are “born that way” remains nothing but a hypothesis.

Remember, society doesn’t have to prove that homosexuality is not normal. Gay activists are the ones attempting to change things and the burden of proof is theirs.

 

[Rau]

Since the “gay” movement can’t prove it, the assertion that homosexuals are “born that way” remains nothing but a hypothesis.

Remember, society doesn’t have to prove that homosexuality is not normal. Gay activists are the ones attempting to change things and the burden of proof is theirs.

Forget “movements”. Forget “normalcy” which is a poorly understood word and not central to the point. Just think about the individuals, your fellow humans, including faithful Catholics.

You appear to take the view that those claiming a same sex orientation are all liars. Even those who who seek to remain chaste. You question the morality (truthfulness) of those who claim to experience the orientation, regardless of how they actually live their lives.

Your basis for taking that position seems to be “if they can’t prove otherwise, I’m quite entitled to deem them liars”. Guilty until proven innocent.

 

[brideofjesus]

There is no fundamentally secular marriage. Marriage is a natural institution created by God that was elevated in dignity by Jesus to a sacrament. Natural marriage still exists and always will exist, however.

As someone else said, the government’s role in marriage is to ensure that marriage is respected, not to do what it wants with it. It has precisely zero authority in that regard.

Thank you for your comment.

 

[brideofjesus]

Love’s symbol in the Bible is fire–fire for light–light to good vision.

We must teach with a loving example.

We are to bring the light of love to the our live and to the rest of humanity.

We must do that lovingly.

Matrimony is a great loving and beautiful light.

It will, especially with our great examples ,give light to those that are blind or of poor vision.

Remember, Matrimony is the new idea. The old sexual bestiality, prostitution (male and female) and incest are the old way. We have the enlightened way.

It must be done with love!

Then they will come to the Kingdom of God. They will be able to see the Kingdom and come to it.

The secular city will have what it votes to have.

What beautiful statements.

 

[shelby_sun]

OK, Thank you for the additional information.

You might pass this on to shelby sun. She credits NASA with the revelation.

No I credit the picture to Nasa.

 

[shelby_sun]

You believe all homosexuals choose their orientation? You believe they all pretend or lie? Certainly that is not revealed truth!

No it is his “truth” and the Catholic Churches. There are even Catholic priest that believe homosexuals are born that why; however, they cannot teach that as apart of the Catholic Churches beliefs.

 

[shelby_sun]

Let me try to simplify this for you.

Everyone BELIEVED the Earth was flat. Then Columbus REVEALED that it was round.

That is a self evident truth.

Catholics believe that the Earth is round, not because the Church says so…but because it is true.

It is very cruel to compare it to a malformed baby or children born with Cystic Fibrosis or damaged hearts to homosexuality. These children have no control over their physical problems.

Homosexuality is NOT natural or innate.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is innately homosexual. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.”

We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that his or her homosexuality is natural Self-declared homosexuals can’t even prove that they really believe that their
homosexuality is innate.

No it actually isn’t. That is simply your opinion. How do you know for a fact that homosexuals have any control with their sexual orientation, not their behavior, but you they are attracted to.

Why would any one chose to be disrespected, outcast, subjected to all kind of negative opinions by others for years and told they are going to hell but so many so call God loving people. Many are lead to suicide to stop how they feel. Why would anyone chose that?

Bottom line is you cannot prove anymore than I can, but I am taking the chance that homosexuals are born that way and am going to treat them as the human beings God created letting God decide their fate. I am not so presumptuous to know what they do behind closed doors anymore than what you do behind closed doors.

 

[Rau]

No it is his “truth” and the Catholic Churches. There are even Catholic priest that believe homosexuals are born that why; however, they cannot teach that as apart of the Catholic Churches beliefs.

The Catholic Church has no position on the cause. A Catholic priest, you and me, are all entitled to form any view we like on the cause. There is zero theological consequence attached to the cause - whether genetic, whether a biological influence in the womb, whether due to psychological influence later - it matters not. One day, medical science may have a firm theory, but such medical matters are not ever the subject of Church teachings. [The Church admits it had no business taking a position on astronomical matters in the past for they are outside its area of teaching competence.]

And the Church certainly does not assume that all homosexuals lie about their orientation.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Forget “movements”. Forget “normalcy” which is a poorly understood word and not central to the point. Just think about the individuals, your fellow humans, including faithful Catholics.

You appear to take the view that those claiming a same sex orientation are all liars. Even those who who seek to remain chaste. You question the morality (truthfulness) of those who claim to experience the orientation, regardless of how they actually live their lives.

Your basis for taking that position seems to be “if they can’t prove otherwise, I’m quite entitled to deem them liars”. Guilty until proven innocent.

I am not calling those claiming a same sex orientation liars.

But to claim that same sex orientation it innate (better word) is simply not true. Many homosexuals have admitted that their “orientation” was a choice and they have returned to a normal life.

 

[shelby_sun]

I am not calling those claiming a same sex orientation liars.

But to claim that same sex orientation it innate (better word) is simply not true. Many homosexuals have admitted that their “orientation” was a choice and they have returned to a normal life.

After someone like you condemned them to hell. Those who returned to “normal” life were not truly gay to begin with. They were simply one of those individuals who experimented or tried to fit in somewhere, like that college girl that has a one time sexual experience with another women, usually when they are drunk out of their minds. I would bet there are much fewer of those you speak of than actual homosexuals.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Why would any one chose to be disrespected, outcast, subjected to all kind of negative opinions by others for years and told they are going to hell but so many so call God loving people. Many are lead to suicide to stop how they feel. Why would anyone chose that?

Many people choose lifestyles that others condemn. Moreover, there are many homosexuals who freely admit that their lifestyle is a voluntary preference.

There is a very considerable body of testimony from tens of thousands of men and women who once lived as homosexuals. These ex-“gays” have renounced their former lifestyles and many have become heterosexual in self-identification and desire, while others have stopped at the point of comfort with their own gender and freedom from same-sex desires.

Bottom line is you cannot prove anymore than I can, but I am taking the chance that homosexuals are born that way and am going to treat them as the human beings God created letting God decide their fate. I am not so presumptuous to know what they do behind closed doors anymore than what you do behind closed doors.

Shelby, I do not have to prove anything. Misguided homosexuals are the ones claiming that homosexuality is innate, or they were “born that way”. The burden of proof is theirs.

They really can’t prove that.

A gay male is physically nothing more than a heterosexual with a behavior problem.