Is it wrong to not oppose secular gay marriage?

[Rau]

No, I am sure there are…But the vast majority dismiss such attractions as abnormal or, in the case of Catholics, as potential sinful attractions and never act on them and lead a normal life… .

So the vast majority who experience SSA and no OSA recognise the “abnormality” of their experience and choose to live chastely. So clearly, they did not choose their experience (SSA and no OSA). So, from where did it come?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

So the vast majority who experience SSA and no OSA recognise the “abnormality” of their experience and choose to live chastely. So clearly, they did not choose their experience (SSA and no OSA). So, from where did it come?

I didn’t say “chastely”.

To be more precise…they do not act on the SSA they act on OSA and live happily ever after.

 

[Rau]

If they were same-sex teenagers would they not self identify as homosexuals??

Good grief no! The hormones are running before the maturity is there to become engaged with girls (socially). It’s about masturbation, fun, thrills, pleasure, a race to the “finish”.

 

[Rau]

Right you are, Rau. So let’s agree to leave out the “very few” and the “vast majority” type of descriptives until we find some credible evidence.

No. The credible evidence that exists supports the position I put. You appealed to evidence that you acknowledge does not exist!. See the difference?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Good grief no! The hormones are running before the maturity is there to become engaged with girls (socially). It’s about masturbation, fun, thrills, pleasure, a race to the “finish”.

Ahh the fun, thrills, pleasure, of Mortal Sin…

Good point…this is why it is vital for children, before maturity, to be properly educated. Homosexual teachers are delighted to encourage such acts and promote SSA as natural.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

No. The credible evidence that exists supports the position I put. You appealed to evidence that you acknowledge does not exist!. See the difference?

Ok, so you are right and I am wrong…?

Let’s see your evidence.

 

[Rau]

Ahh the fun, thrills, pleasure, of Mortal Sin…

Good point…this is why it is vital for children, before maturity, to be properly educated. Homosexual teachers are delighted to encourage such acts and promote SSA as natural.

Perhaps a different tone could be taken when referring to 13 yr old boys. If you never masturbated (alone) in your youth Zoltan, you are indeed special.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Perhaps a different tone could be taken when referring to 13 yr old boys. If you never masturbated (alone) in your youth Zoltan, you are indeed special.

What do you mean by “tone”?

As a youth, Zoltan found real girls to be more pleasurable than “Rosie Palm and her five sisters.”

 

[Rau]

I didn’t say “chastely”.

To be more precise…they do not act on the SSA they act on OSA and live happily ever after.

They have no OSA to act on, they are homosexually inclined, not heterosexually and not bisexually. We are talking about persons for whom SSA is their exclusive inclination. Do you believe these people exist?

 

[Rau]

What do you mean by “tone”?

As a youth, Zoltan found real girls to be more pleasurable than “Rosie Palm and her five sisters.”

You were obviously an early starter Zoltan. Fornication is wrong too you know!

 

[Elizium23]

The Church hasn’t weighed in on 1 or 2, correct?

I just want to confirm that these are medical conclusions.

The Church has certainly weighed in on (1) and (2). The Church teaches that homosexual inclinations are disordered. That is “like” a disease. Surely disorders in the psyche must be cured in order to achieve personal holiness and sanctification. The Church teaches that everyone is capable of these things. I don’t think that the Church would say that the inclinations can always be cured, because not everyone is capable or willing of salvation, and all of us who get to Heaven will do so despite our sinful natures and predisposition to sin (concupiscence).

Prayer is a powerful tool that cannot be underestimated. It must of course be complemented by practice and discipline, but yes, if one prays earnestly and it pleases God to grant the petition, homosexual activity, and even inclinations, will go away.

 

[Rau]

The Church has certainly weighed in on (1) and (2). The Church teaches that homosexual inclinations are disordered. That is “like” a disease. Surely disorders in the psyche must be cured in order to achieve personal holiness and sanctification. The Church teaches that everyone is capable of these things. I don’t think that the Church would say that the inclinations can always be cured, because not everyone is capable or willing of salvation, and all of us who get to Heaven will do so despite our sinful natures and predisposition to sin (concupiscence).

Prayer is a powerful tool that cannot be underestimated. It must of course be complemented by practice and discipline, but yes, if one prays earnestly and it pleases God to grant the petition, homosexual activity, and even inclinations, will go away.

Let’s just remind ourselves what the propositions (1) and (2) were:

1. Do you think homosexuality is like a **disease **that must be cured?
2. If so, do you think that by prayer homosexual feelings will just go away in time ?

Regarding [1]: If by “like a disease”, you are saying that the condition suggests something is “amiss” with the individual (be it brain, hormones, DNA, whatever…), I tend to agree, though I have no idea of the nature of what is amiss. The Church admits it has no competence to make pronouncements on medical matters and it makes none. The Church explicitly states that the cause is not known. The Church does not assert that it “must be cured”. There is NO requirement for the SSA to be eliminated for the individual to be pleasing to God (or to achieve salvation). The SSA is not sinful.

Regarding [2]: It is hardly insightful to conclude that God will do what God wishes to do! Further, that SSA may not leave an individual cannot be pointed to as evidence that a person is not “capable or willing of salvation”.

 

[glendab]

Hello Rau.

So the vast majority who experience SSA and no OSA recognise the “abnormality” of their experience and choose to live chastely. So clearly, they did not choose their experience (SSA and no OSA). So, from where did it come?

As Catholics we are given the fullness of the truth regarding this an many other matters. We see homosexuality as a grave sin and so those thoughts that precede acts are correctly seen as temptations and thusly their author is the devil who is the source of all temptations for as the Scriptures state: “no one is tempted by God.” That’s the truth about the where it came from.

Also, the sin against faith that some unknowingly commit when they incorrectly try to attribute SSA and homosexual actions as a non-chosen from-birth affliction that cannot be changed or challenged is to claim that God is the author of this disorientation. They are in fact, sinning against faith by stating that persons with homosexual behaviors are born that way and are helpless to change it and that it is a biological in origin. It is not. It is a sexual sin that is learned and it’s author is the devil. God created us male and female in His image. To say otherwise is also a sin against faith.

Glenda

 

[Godspells]

Hello Rau.

As Catholics we are given the fullness of the truth regarding this an many other matters. We see homosexuality as a grave sin and so those thoughts that precede acts are correctly seen as temptations and thusly their author is the devil who is the source of all temptations for as the Scriptures state: “no one is tempted by God.” That’s the truth about the where it came from.

Also, the sin against faith that some unknowingly commit when they incorrectly try to attribute SSA and homosexual actions as a non-chosen from-birth affliction that cannot be changed or challenged is to claim that God is the author of this disorientation. They are in fact, sinning against faith by stating that persons with homosexual behaviors are born that way and are helpless to change it and that it is a biological in origin. It is not. It is a sexual sin that is learned and it’s author is the devil. God created us male and female in His image. To say otherwise is also a sin against faith.

Glenda

This is entirely untrue. This is a classic example of the problems that are caused by scholasticism. To blame everything on the devil that you don’t understand.

Christianity is not dualistic, God gives each of us our own crosses to bare and for a homosexual person that is SSA. But, to whom much is given, much is expected, and those with many crosses to carry are glorified by God.

Now wouldn’t that be a surprise, in heaven to see the homosexuals who have been put through so much disdain and cruelty in this life, yet who struggled to remain chaste and faithful to God, and they might very well be exalted over the heterosexuals!

There is absolutely no medical evidence to support homosexuality being a choice, and twins in which one is homosexual, the other is 70% more likely to experience SSA. Such a fact does not mean that it is moral behavior, (I have OSA but that doesn’t mean I can fornicate) but I find it appalling that Christians do not have more sympathy for people who have that cross, and I suspect it is because they are an easy target for judgment as their sin is easy for us to avoid. Any why homosexuality is singled out as a sin is beyond me. Adultery just as prevalent and IMO does far more damage to families, not to mention betrayal, deception, and at times even downright malignity.

 

[Godspells]

Let’s just remind ourselves what the propositions (1) and (2) were:

1. Do you think homosexuality is like a **disease **that must be cured?
2. If so, do you think that by prayer homosexual feelings will just go away in time ?

Regarding [1]: If by “like a disease”, you are saying that the condition suggests something is “amiss” with the individual (be it brain, hormones, DNA, whatever…), I tend to agree, though I have no idea of the nature of what is amiss. The Church admits it has no competence to make pronouncements on medical matters and it makes none. The Church explicitly states that the cause is not known. The Church does not assert that it “must be cured”. There is NO requirement for the SSA to be eliminated for the individual to be pleasing to God (or to achieve salvation). The SSA is not sinful.

Regarding [2]: It is hardly insightful to conclude that God will do what God wishes to do! Further, that SSA may not leave an individual cannot be pointed to as evidence that a person is not “capable or willing of salvation”.

The APA and AMA and just about every medical association concludes that homosexual tendencies are a natural variation in human behavior.

It is not unlike the fact that heterosexuals can experience different levels of sexual tendencies ranging from hyper sexuality (people addicted to sex) all the way to asexuality (people who have no interest in sex).

The fact that it is natural doesn’t make it moral, but I think by now we can move away from this medieval perception that gay people are “possessed by demons”. I agree with your post.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

The APA and AMA and just about every medical association concludes that homosexual tendencies are a natural variation in human behavior.

Ahhh, but is this not a fairly recent about face for both organizations? Isn’t it true that for the majority of these organization’s histories, they both declared homosexuality to be a disease? And if one examines the process by which these two organizations conducted their about-face, it was based upon popular vote and opinion rather than on science? Perhaps a defensive response to the inability to cure the disease, especially since a majority of the afflicted did not want their disease cured?

To suggest that homosexual tendencies are just a natural variation in human behavior is the same logic as to suggest that cancer is just another natural variation of a human cell.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

They have no OSA to act on, they are homosexually inclined, not heterosexually and not bisexually. We are talking about persons for whom SSA is their exclusive inclination. Do you believe these people exist?

Yes I do.

But you would have to agree that there are many homosexuals who freely admit that their
lifestyle is a voluntary preference.

There is also a considerable body of testimony from men and women who once lived as homosexuals. These ex-“gays” have renounced their former lifestyles and many have become heterosexual in self-identification and desire, while others have stopped at the point of comfort with their own gender and freedom from same-sex desires. There people are to be applauded.

 

[Godspells]

Ahhh, but is this not a fairly recent about face for both organizations? Isn’t it true that for the majority of these organization’s histories, they both declared homosexuality to be a disease? And if one examines the process by which these two organizations conducted their about-face, it was based upon popular vote and opinion rather than on science? Perhaps a defensive response to the inability to cure the disease, especially since a majority of the afflicted did not want their disease cured?

To suggest that homosexual tendencies are just a natural variation in human behavior is the same logic as to suggest that cancer is just another natural variation of a human cell.

Well, truly doctors are not infallible. However, characterizing homosexuality as a disease is hardly bringing any homosexuals to the love of Christ.

To be sure, I’m not entirely certain what constitutes a genetic “disease” or “disorder” as opposed to a “variation”, but I presume it depends on whether or not the condition produces destructive tendencies. I do not believe homosexuality is, in and of itself, destructive. At least not any more than promiscuity is in general.

Homosexuality is, however, a complex condition that is caused by many genetic and environmental factors, and most people have very little control, if any, over their sexual preferences. Of course, anything is possible with God, but we as servants of the Almighty certainly cannot “expect” Him to intercede if He has called us to bare that cross. So this “reparative” therapy or “cure” is non-sense both from a medical and spiritual perspective.

That’s like praying, “O God, if you could just make me not want to sin, then I wouldn’t.”

Yeah, nice try. Not going to say that I haven’t prayed that, but I will say it did not work. Although with spiritual growth, virtue becomes more appealing than sin.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The APA and AMA and just about every medical association concludes that homosexual tendencies are a natural variation in human behavior.

The American Medical Association has stated that attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation can be harmful. It says NOTHING about homosexual tendencies being a natural variation in human behavior.

The American Psychological Association has a different story:

"…Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth.

Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments."

Nota Bene…the word “SUGGESTS”.

The APA does not state that research has conclusively proven anything.

Heck! I could say that Zoltan’s research suggests that the APA is a bunch of lunatics and I would be as credible as they are.

Remember our history…until 1973 the APA considered homosexuality to be a disorder and not a natural orientation. Militant homosexual groups began disrupting numerous scientific programs and conferences in the early to mid seventies, including the APA and it’s meetings. Gay political groups especially targeted and disrupted national and local meetings in which the psychopathology and treatment of homosexuality were being debated.

The results were that 243 practitioners and members of the APA petitioned for a referendum to vote on a reversal of the ruling. That vote occurred in April 1974 in which 40% of the voters disagreed with the ruling, asserting that there were no legitimate scientific reasons for the APA’s change in fundamental psychiatric therapy.

In late 1977, 68% of American Medical Association psychiatrists responding to a poll still viewed homosexuality as a pathological adaptation as opposed to a normal variation.

The 1973 APA ruling did not resolve the issue…it simply silenced 80 years of psychoanalytic observation."

As of this moment there exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is innately homosexual.

If it ever is scientifically proven that “homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth.”…then a cure or treatment could be developed. That would send the gay activists into orbit. If science were to identify a biological cause of homosexuality, that day would begin the “race for the cure.” (And a great many purportedly happy homosexual men and women would secretly join that race.) If it is discovered that homosexuality can be genetically determined before birth I would expect an increase in abortions.

 

[Havard]

The Church has certainly weighed in on (1) and (2). The Church teaches that homosexual inclinations are disordered. That is “like” a disease. Surely disorders in the psyche must be cured in order to achieve personal holiness and sanctification. The Church teaches that everyone is capable of these things. I don’t think that the Church would say that the inclinations can always be cured, because not everyone is capable or willing of salvation, and all of us who get to Heaven will do so despite our sinful natures and predisposition to sin (concupiscence).

Prayer is a powerful tool that cannot be underestimated. It must of course be complemented by practice and discipline, but yes, if one prays earnestly and it pleases God to grant the petition, homosexual activity, and even inclinations, will go away.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I should have been more clear in my question. I was really just referring to whether the Church has weighed in on whether homosexuality can be “cured.” Since the Catechism just mentions the call to chastity, and says nothing about the removal of the inclination, it seems to me that the focus should be on chastity.