Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[Jimmy_B]

PART FIVE

276 CITED TEXT:

Lumen gentium 8

Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, “though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave”,(77) and “being rich, became poor”(78) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and selfsacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father “to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart”,(79) “to seek and to save what was lost”.(80) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled(81) knew nothing of sin,(82) but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(83) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, “like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God”(14*), announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes."(84) By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light.

NOTES
73. Cf. Eph. 4, 16.
74. Jn. 21, 17.
75. Cf. Mt. 28, 18, f.
76. 1 Tim. 3, 15.
77. Phil. 2, 6.
78. 2 Cor. 8, 9.
79. Lk. 4, 18.
80. Lk. 19, 10.
81. Hebr. 7, 26.
82. 2 Cor. 5, 21.
83. Cf. Hebr. 2, 17.
84. Cf. 1 Cor. 11,26.
Supplementary notes (*)
(9) Leo XIII, Litt. Encycl. Sapientiae christianae, 10 ian. 1890 AAS 22 (1889-90) p. 392. Id., Epist. Encycl. Satis cognitium, 29 iun. 1896; AAS 28 (1895-96) pp. 710 ct 724 ss. Pius XII, Litt. Eneyel. Mystici Corporis, 1. c., pp. 199-200.
(10) Cfr. Pius XII, Litt. Encycl. Mystici Corporis, 1. c., p. 221 ss. Id., Lin. Encycl. Humani genesis, 12 Aug. 1950: AAS 42 (1950) p. 571.
(11) Leo XIII, Epist. Encycl. Satis cognitum, 1. c., p. 713.
(12) Cfr. Symbolum Apostolicum: Denz. 6-9 (10-13); Symb. Nic.-Const.: Denz. 86 (150), coll. Prof. fidei Trid.: Denz. 994 et 999 (1862 et 1868).
(13) Dieitur. Saneta (catholica apostolica) Romana Ecelesia .: in Prof. fidei Trid., 1. c. et Concl. Vat. I, Sess. III, Const. dogm. de fide cath.: Denz. 1782 (3001).
(14) S. Augustinus, Civ. Dei, XVIII, 51, 2: PL 41, 614.

**My apologies for such a long post, but I want to make sure that those who do not know, that our Protestant brothers and sisters are Christians and are also afforded salvation without being a “Card Carrying Catholic” **

Nobody has fully addressed this post… Why not?

 

[me_again]

< snip >

But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.
Jimmy B;6842668:

Nobody has fully addressed this post… Why not?

It’s succinct and thought provoking.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Indeed! It is through Christ’s astoundikng mercy and grace which redeems humanity…not a religious organization.

Unless that organization is Christ Himself, 1 Cor all of 12
All other Chritsain Churches receiving overflow from the 2000 year old Mass.

I found Christ through the organization that is the Catholic Church. For me the Catholic Church is the body of Christ as we are fed spiritually by Jesus daily. I feel blessed to be this close to Jesus along with the Sacraments that allow me to heal from my fallen nature, which gets me closer to Him so that I can be closer to others in ways we were created to be.

We are not a special breed of people, we are sinners in transition. Jesus can save whom ever He chooses such as a thief on a Cross. All paths lead to Jesus and through Jesus.

Walking with Him in His Church is very humbling. I feel fortunate but refuse to see others as less fortunate as they also are in transition just like me.

If you look at another today and judge that one with human wisdom you will loose site of that one quickly because you have no idea where they will be tomorrow, plus it is not our place to play a god. We are simply called to love others as God loves us, unconditionally and never measured. I do not believe that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, which is Christ Himself to us here on earth. . It’s the timing that can not be pinned down. Can a Quaker be saved? Of course!

Indeed! It is through Christ’s astoundikng mercy and grace which redeems humanity…not a religious organization.

 

[Publisher]

Unless that organization is Christ Himself, 1 Cor all of 12
All other Chritsain Churches receiving overflow from the 2000 year old Mass.

I found Christ through the organization that is the Catholic Church. For me the Catholic Church is the body of Christ as we are fed spiritually by Jesus daily. I feel blessed to be this close to Jesus along with the Sacraments that allow me to heal from my fallen nature, which gets me closer to Him so that I can be closer to others in ways we were created to be.

We are not a special breed of people, we are sinners in transition. Jesus can save whom ever He chooses such as a thief on a Cross. All paths lead to Jesus and through Jesus.

Walking with Him in His Church is very humbling. I feel fortunate but refuse to see others as less fortunate as they also are in transition just like me.

If you look at another today and judge that one with human wisdom you will loose site of that one quickly because you have no idea where they will be tomorrow, plus it is not our place to play a god. We are simply called to love others as God loves us, unconditionally and never measured. I do not believe that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, which is Christ Himself to us here on earth. . It’s the timing that can not be pinned down. Can a Quaker be saved? Of course!

That is a difference we have that cannot be reconciled. I do not believe in any way shape or form that membership in the man made institution called the Catholic church gets me any nearer to “heaven” than will the Society of Friends. If the Catholic church has answered your deep spiritual questions concerning life in a frame work or ritual and dogma…I rejoice with you.

It is a personal belief that if we are “saved” it will be in spite of our religious affiliation not because of it.

 

[tomarin]

That is a difference we have that cannot be reconciled. I do not believe in any way shape or form that membership in the man made institution called the Catholic church gets me any nearer to “heaven” than will the Society of Friends. If the Catholic church has answered your deep spiritual questions concerning life in a frame work or ritual and dogma…I rejoice with you.

It is a personal belief that if we are “saved” it will be in spite of our religious affiliation not because of it.

Yet in the New Testament there is something called an “ecclesia” or “gathering” that the apostles appear to be establishing with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to proclaim Christ’s message to the rest of mankind. Catholics and Orthodox identify that ecclesia with their own churches respectively, while many Protestants seem to identify it with an institution that comprises all of Christianity past and present, the so-called invisible church. What do you think that ecclesia was and what is its relationship to the various branches of Christianity that exist today? Is there any relationship?

I guess what I’m getting at is: it appears there is something like a religious institution (the “ecclesia”) in the New Testament that forms when Jesus leaves the scene in his incarnational form. If you’re right that religious institutions are bad (or at least that they are not reliable as teachers), then what was that religious institution doing in the New Testament?

 

[Stylites]

Yes, only through the Lord Jesus Christ may a person enter His kingdom. For example, if a Buddhist from the year 3000 BC enters Jesus’ kingdom, it is through Jesus, even if the Buddhist never heard of Jesus.

Not to distract from your good point you were making, but it would be quite amazing to find a Buddhist in the year 3,000 BC, seeing that Buddha was born (or last reborn!) around 563 BC.

 

[Publisher]

Yet in the New Testament there is something called an “ecclesia” or “gathering” that the apostles appear to be establishing with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to proclaim Christ’s message to the rest of mankind. Catholics and Orthodox identify that ecclesia with their own churches respectively, while many Protestants seem to identify it with an institution that comprises all of Christianity past and present, the so-called invisible church. What do you think that ecclesia was and what is its relationship to the various branches of Christianity that exist today? Is there any relationship?

The “ecclesia” was a political term from what I remember that denoted a “gathering” or “congregation” or “meeting”…as in “town meeting”. Those called Christians gathered together at first within the structure of Judaism and were part of the synagouges. Later after more Gentile influence and the destruction of the Temple, separate Christian congregations formed under some of the various leaders…“Some say we are of Apollos, some of Cephas, some of Christ”…even before the Temple’s destruction groups were gathering together based on charismatic leaders…but Paul tells them that they are ALL of Christ.

The Church gathers each First Day to worship…the Church is not an institution but a redeemed people. While I understand the need for institutional organizations to help facilitate missions, buildings held in trust, all things material…there is nothing “sacred” or “holy” or “magical” about an organization. Christ redeems His people and gathers them to Himself in the Unity of the Holy Spirit REGARDLESS of one’s institutional affilliation.

 

[tomarin]

The Church gathers each First Day to worship…the Church is not an institution but a redeemed people.

That’s interesting. I guess I don’t see why it can’t be an institution and a redeemed people.

While I understand the need for institutional organizations to help facilitate missions, buildings held in trust, all things material…there is nothing “sacred” or “holy” or “magical” about an organization. Christ redeems His people and gathers them to Himself in the Unity of the Holy Spirit REGARDLESS of one’s institutional affilliation.

Not to mention assemble Holy Scripture, teach against heresies, appoint bishops to new territories (and launch Crusades, oversee Inquisitions, and burn heretics at the stake … I don’t want to leave out the bad parts.) But I guess that doesn’t fall within your paradigm.

 

[rickypaul]

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841*

Above is a reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this subject. It is clear on other Christian Denominations as well as Muslims and Jews have access to salvation for those who “through no fault of their own…seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace try in thier actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience” Therefore the answer is no, the Roman Church itself teaches that salvation can be achieved without faith in Jesus Christ or communion with the Roman Catholic church.

r

 

[Rence]

Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?
Your thoughts?

I don’t believe you have to be Catholic to be saved, and the reason why is the teaching given to us by the CCC:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I believe there will be many non-Catholic Christians and Jews in Heaven if they are true to their religion and believe in the teachings of their religion with their heart, mind and soul. And I see A LOT of devout non-Catholic Christians and Jews following their religion faithfully.

 

[Nicea325]

All “salvation” is through the grace and mercy of God in Christ. Church affiliation has nothing to do with it…unless of course one believes the religious instittuion one belongs to is the “true church”…then that “colors” one’s belief…but since I believe the Catholic church is just another “man made” organization…much older of course than the Society of Friends but in the same boat as the Society of Friends…the “Roman Catholic Church” really doesn’t come into play.

Agree and disagree. Salvation is through Grace Alone.However,church affiliation does play a part in it. If ‘church’ per se were not important,then Christ would have not founded His Church,but would have left a loose-knit,do-whatever-what-one-wants type of church.

As for the CC being another man-made church? Sorry,but that is historically inaccurate without empirical supporting such a charge. I have yet read a sinlge document or set of documents proving someone or a group of people founded the Catholic Church.

 

[catholic-rcia]

I used to complain about organized religion as well. It was like when I was 20 years old working in an underground gold mine. The older miners were complaining that they were not paid enough. I had been there for about two weeks and I joined them in their complaints. Why? It felt right.

I remember telling Catholics that my church was when I went to the mountains, camping and fishing, that’s where I find God I told them.

Even the family has to be organized to some point. So you could call it an organized family.

I remember when I use to do what I wanted to do not taking into account what my parents told me I should do. I guess I did not like the organized family expectations at that time in my life. I did not see how and why it was grounded, nor did I give it much thought as I was at the center of my own world. I wanted to do things my way.

As to the Catholic Church I have found a sense of structure that is not of this world. It has everything to do with the Mass, sin, forgiveness and reconciliation in Jesus. For me it is true freedom. I see this organization under a Cross with our savior upon it. I see death and I see life.

It is this organization that I am a small part of, yet loved just as much as every other part. It has helped me come to grips with my own fallen nature. It has shown me and continues to show me the love of Christ. As one who used to believe the Mormon Church was the true Church I have found that one is not always correct. I was a block head formed by others, with Christ I was able to move some blocks and now I am being formed by Him.

I love the organization that is the Catholic Church and thank God for it, for Jesus each and every day. I am not afraid of saying I am a fan of the Catholic organized religion, especially the Confession part. I once had a hard time expressing my beliefs, as a Catholic, for me it’s unbelievably natural. Again it is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is because of the Mass that we can even say His name, not only remember His name but be in the presence of Him in the here and now.

Howe can you say that you do not like a tree because it is organized? Can a limb live without the whole tree? Can a branch live apart from the trunk? Can the trunk live apart from the roots? Can a leaf suddenly appear without the tree? We are of Christ’s body and it is organized in a way that brings all praise and glory to Him. 1 Cor all of chapter twelve. The whole Bible Old and New for that matter.

 

[Nicea325]

I used to complain about organized religion as well. It was like when I was 20 years old working in an underground gold mine. The older miners were complaining that they were not paid enough. I had been there for about two weeks and I joined them in their complaints. Why? It felt right.

I remember telling Catholics that my church was when I went to the mountains, camping and fishing, that’s where I find God I told them.

Even the family has to be organized to some point. So you could call it an organized family.

I remember when I use to do what I wanted to do not taking into account what my parents told me I should do. I guess I did not like the organized family expectations at that time in my life. I did not see how and why it was grounded, nor did I give it much thought as I was at the center of my own world. I wanted to do things my way.

As to the Catholic Church I have found a sense of structure that is not of this world. It has everything to do with the Mass, sin, forgiveness and reconciliation in Jesus. For me it is true freedom. I see this organization under a Cross with our savior upon it. I see death and I see life.

It is this organization that I am a small part of, yet loved just as much as every other part. It has helped me come to grips with my own fallen nature. It has shown me and continues to show me the love of Christ. As one who used to believe the Mormon Church was the true Church I have found that one is not always correct. I was a block head formed by others, with Christ I was able to move some blocks and now I am being formed by Him.

I love the organization that is the Catholic Church and thank God for it, for Jesus each and every day. I am not afraid of saying I am a fan of the Catholic organized religion, especially the Confession part. I once had a hard time expressing my beliefs, as a Catholic, for me it’s unbelievably natural. Again it is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is because of the Mass that we can even say His name, not only remember His name but be in the presence of Him in the here and now.

Howe can you say that you do not like a tree because it is organized? Can a limb live without the whole tree? Can a branch live apart from the trunk? Can the trunk live apart from the roots? Can a leaf suddenly appear without the tree? We are of Christ’s body and it is organized in a way that brings all praise and glory to Him. 1 Cor all of chapter twelve. The whole Bible Old and New for that matter.

Nicely said and good luck with your journey of faith.One thing is for sure,conversion comes from within and with the graces of God.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Nicely said and good luck with your journey of faith.One thing is for sure,conversion comes from within and with the graces of God.

Yes and you do not have to be that smart, or better than that other religion over there. We our what we our…Catholic and anyone can take it or leave it. I for one am more than happy that I learned about it from other Catholics who understood what they have and care deeply about others.

Thanks and God Bless
Rich

 

[Nicea325]

Yes and you do not have to be that smart, or better than that other religion over there. We our what we our…Catholic and anyone can take it or leave it. I for one am more than happy that I learned about it from other Catholics who understood what they have and care deeply about others.

Thanks and God Bless
Rich

Exactly! Take it or leave it!

 

[me_again]

it appears there is something like a religious institution (the “ecclesia”) in the New Testament that forms when Jesus leaves the scene in his incarnational form. If you’re right that religious institutions are bad (or at least that they are not reliable as teachers), then what was that religious institution doing in the New Testament?

As an institution, the Catholic Church has been a significant repository of theological information. While governments and kingdoms and anarchy has risen and fallen, the Catholic repository has retained the Word of God and the Apostolic Tradition (Sacred Tradition) for over 2000 years. Has any other man-made institution or government done the same? No. That in itself is food for spiritual thought.

Protestantism tends to follow leaders more than institutions, which is on even shakier ground because if an organization is built upon a leader, it is more apt to have problems i.e. when the leader falls, the parishioners sometimes have nothing concrete to fall back on. Several names come to mind, such as Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker and others. However, if a priest or a bishop falls, the institution that Christ established remains intact to continue providing the seven valid sacraments, along with biblical and apostolic (sacred) teachings to feed the flock.

Most Protestants believe that the “Church” is exclusively the “Body of Christ” comprising living humans here on earth. Catholicism appears to believe that the “Church” comprises (1) the Roman Catholic Church as an institution and (2) living believers here on earth and (3) those who are in heaven. The following seems to sum up the Catholic belief quite poignently:

< snip >
But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.

 

[me_again]

Not to distract from your good point you were making, but it would be quite amazing to find a Buddhist in the year 3,000 BC, seeing that Buddha was born (or last reborn!) around 563 BC.

LOL – Oops, my mistake!

 

[Publisher]

That’s interesting. I guess I don’t see why it can’t be an institution and a redeemed people.

God’s redeemed people work within man made institutions…but the institution itself as an organization is not the Church…the Church often and most times works within a man made organization.

Not to mention assemble Holy Scripture, teach against heresies, **appoint bishops to new territories (and launch Crusades, oversee Inquisitions, and burn heretics at the stake … I don’t want to leave out the bad parts.) **But I guess that doesn’t fall within your paradigm.

That would fall into the paradigm of “institutions”.

 

[choy]

NOT ROMAN

Catholic Church, no ROMAN

there are 22 particular Churches within the Catholic Church, they are all equal. salvation is found inside the Catholic Church, but not limited to the Roman Church which is only 1/22 of the entire Catholic Church

 

[Doxiemom]

Jesus said that ALL who believe in Him shall be saved.

I will take His Word on that.

Now, has the Roman catholic Church been a vehicle for salvation ? yes…in that it spread the gospel throughout the known world. And continues to do so.

But so has many other liturgical and non-liturgical churches.

And so has it been done by the work of indivuduals.

But no one institution, or person, can claim to be part of salvation. Only Jesus Chrsit through His suffering and shed Blood comes salvation.

It is by faith alone that you are saved.

Grace is given by God and God alone.