Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[c659smith]

).
No doubt he played a leadership role and a significant one.

True. However in Galatians 2:7-9 Paul goes to meet not only Peter but James and John with Peter who were the “pillars” i.e. persons of authority and influence in the church. This counts heavily against the idea that Peter alone was the supreme leader of the NT church.

No doubt he was significant. It does not prove he was the supreme leader though.

I don’t know. No indication of it in the NT.

Does not the catholic church claim that Peter was the first pope who founded Rome and was its first leader there?

Because Peter the head of the Apostles was first arrested there and put in prison there.

Yes because it was the beginning of the end for Rome as the Romans knew it. Approximately 200 years after Peter was crucified Rome would fall and Catholism took over. The original Church (Catholic) never left Rome even under severe persecution.

 

[c659smith]

For those not understanding definitions of Catholic

1. Catholic
   a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
   b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
   c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
   d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.
   n. Catholic
   A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.

Catholic Church - any of several churches claiming to have maintained historical continuity with the original Christian Church
The Roman Catholic Church or Catholic Church (see terminology below) is the Christian church in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, currently Pope Benedict XVI. It traces its origins to the original Christian community founded by Jesus and spread by the Twelve Apostles, in particular Saint Peter.[1][2]

The Catholic Church is the largest Christian church, representing around half of all Christians, and is the largest organized body of any world religion.[3][4] According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Catholic Church’s worldwide recorded membership at the end of 2005 was 1,114,966,000, approximately one-sixth of the world’s population.[5]

The worldwide Catholic Church is made up of one Western or Latin and 22 Eastern Catholic autonomous particular churches, all of which look to the Bishop of Rome, alone or along with the College of Bishops, as their highest authority on earth for matters of faith, morals and church governance.[6] It is divided into jurisdictional areas, usually on a territorial basis. The standard territorial unit, each of which is headed by a bishop, is called a diocese in the Latin church and an eparchy in the Eastern churches. At the end of 2006, the total number of all these jurisdictional areas (or “Sees”) was 2,782.[7]

 

[guanophore]

Even in this reference i don’t see anything about bishops being the same thing as an apostle. It is one thing to “succeed to their ministry” and another thing that they “succeed to their office”.

That is because there were no more Apostles. It was no longer possible to meet the requirements to be an Apostle after that. The bishops are the successors of the Apostles. Where do you see a difference between succeeding to a ministry and an office?

). However in Galatians 2:7-9 Paul goes to meet not only Peter but James and John with Peter who were the “pillars” i.e. persons of authority and influence in the church. This counts heavily against the idea that Peter alone was the supreme leader of the NT church.

I hope you will continue to find evidents that counts against this idea, ja4. It is a worldy attitude that has been introduced to you by some anti-Catholic source. Jesus’ teaching about leadership has nothing to do with “supremacy”, and should not be applied to the Apostles at all. Instead, I hope that you will allow this error to be parted from you, and that you will no longer be conformed to this world, but that your thinking will be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

).
No doubt he was significant. It does not prove he was the supreme leader though.

You are right. This “supreme leader” idea is a figment of your imagination. I don’t blame you, though. I am sure it was planted there first by some other anti-Catholic bigot, and that you are just following what you were taught.

).
Does not the catholic church claim that Peter was the first pope who founded Rome and was its first leader there?

No. Rome, the city, was founded by Pagans. The Church in Rome was populated first most likely by Jews that traveled to Judea for Pentecost, and were present at Peter’s first sermon. The Christian Church in Rome was greately strengthened by the teaching of Peter and Paul, who labored there until they were martyred by the same Pagans that founded the city.

 

[guanophore]

Where does Paul write about the Roman Catholic church in his letters?

There was no separate Roman Rite when the NT was written. Neither was there when it was canonized in the 4th century.

Where does he even come close to mentioning praying to Mary and the saints?

Scripture has many references that we should pray one for another. Jesus taught us that when we are in Him, we will never die. We believe that those in Christ have eternal life, and that they cannot be separated even by death. Note how the writer of Hebrews speaks about the part of the Holy Church that is already in heaven:

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

This is the sinless part of the Church, ja4. This part of the Church, unlike those of us who are not yet made perfect in faith, they can no longer sin, as they have been purified. No sin exists in heaven. The spirits of just men made perfect, are in the best position to pray for us, even more so than we are for one another, because they have already laid aside every weight and sin which so easily besets us.

Where does he write that church leadership requirement should be celibate men for example?

I don’t see that it does, but I also don’t see that this is relevant, either, since this is not the teaching of the Catholic Church either.

Where does Paul write about Apostolic succession in his letters?

“…what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” 2 Tim 2:2

This represents four generations of Apostolic succession, ja4. THe Apostle has given the Sacred Traditions to TImothy, who is to entrust that Divine Deposit of Fatih to faithful men, who are able to teach others also. This is the office and ministry of the bishop.

What makes you think that Peter was ruling from Rome the entire church? What evidence is there for this?

I think nothing of the sort. In fact, I think you idea of “supremacy” and “ruling” is a contamination from Paganism. This is a secular attitude about leadersthip, and has no place in God’s kingdom. I think the NT is very clear on this point. I am surprised to hear that you would espouse such an anti-scriptural attitude! But, none of us are perfect. In fact, we all fall short in many ways. Many people, including some of the Popes, had their understanding of leadership perverted by the world, the flesh, and the devil. I just don’t see that Peter was one of them.

 

[guanophore]

Just curious, have always wanted to know… where in the Bible is the doctrine of Purgatory taught?

Can’t we take this to a purgatory thread? The Bible does not "teach’. People teach.

<<<It is His perogative to draw, and not ours. It is not our place to try to pull up the tares in the wheat field.>>> You are right about the tares… but this does not exclude one from witnessing to others or telling them the truth. See… Luke 14:23

Is that your goal on CAF, to witness and tell all us poor lost CAtholics the “truth”?

You can *confess *your sins publicly (where people can hear) **but **you are still confessing your sins to Jesus in reality. It is God that forgives. You can confess your sins in church or in the privacy of your own home… The key is that you are sincerely repentant. (meaning you are truly sorry and have a desire to turn from those sins) If you are truly repentant then Jesus (as our advocate- 1 John 2:1) will wash away those sins (**with his blood - Praise the Lord) If you were the only person left alive on this earth, no priest, no church people, if it was only you and God, then you could believe in your heart that Christ died for your sins, you could repent of those sins (in sincerity) Believe what God’s Word says and act upon it, and have assurance that you would go to Heaven. {I John 5:13, Romans 10:9, Romans 3:22-24, John 20:30, John 1:12}Have *you *believed and repented?

I agree with all these things you say about repentance. Jesus set things up so that we could confess one to another, because that is part of the healing He intended. When the priest gives absolution, he does so in the person of Christ. It is not as though Catholics confess to a priest “instead” of to God. Jesus ordained that we come to HIm through one another.

 

[peary]

I believe that Jesus Christ and the CATHOLIC CHURCH are the only way to salvation.

 

[guanophore]

<<<I don’t know what Bible your reading, but in mine, the topic of Confession is rampant. We are constantly called to repent and confess our sins. The Lord gave only the Apostles (and their successors) the authority to forgive or retain sins (John 20:19-23).>>>

This may be so but… we can also go directly to the Father… The veil has been ripped we can go directly to the throne of God and ask Jesus for forgiveness of sin and he is just and righteous to forgive us of that sin. John 2:1 says that Jesus is our Advocate… no other

This kind of thinking seems to eliminate the possiblity that God has allowed people to participate in HIs advocacy.

Yes… but… if one studies the scriptures out here in 1 Samuel chapter 28, one will find that God nor Samuel endorsed what Saul did. Saul contacted a woman who had a “familiar spirit” (a channeler, a spiritist, a witch in other words) this was plainly against God! {Lev. 20:27, II Chr. 33:6,} In another place it says that the dead know not {Ecc. 9:5} God might have allowed it in this one instance, (but he was **not happy **about it) but this doesn’t mean that we may all go around praying (talking) to dead people, no matter who they are or were when they were alive. Now Jesus on the other hand is always ready to hear our praise and are petitions. Glory be to Jesus!

I never claimed that God or Samuel endorsed what Saul did. My point is that Samuel is not in some kind of “soul sleep” invented by Reformers. He is very much alive, and he is very much aware of what is going on here on earth. Samuel gives Saul a prophesy from God, which means he has awareness of God’s plan before it occurs here on earth. All these factors make it clear that the saints are alive and well in heaven, and able to be conscious of what goes on here.

Divine Revelation is all well and good as long as it agrees with God’s Holy Word. As long as it doesn’t disagree, change, corrupt, add to, or **take away **from what has already been written in God’s word. {Revelations 22:18-19}

Perhaps you are somewhat lacking in your own family history, submittedjoy. Divine Revelation is not limited to the Scripture. God’s Holy Word is Jesus HImself, and He is not limited to the pages of a book. The problem with this view of scripture is that scripture itself does not claim to contain the whole of revelation from God. Furthermore, that Sacred Scripture is taken from the Sacred Tradition, and should not be separated from it.

 

[guanophore]

Yes… It is good for the soul to confess and be under some sort of accountability but… The point I was making is simply this… we don’t “Have to ask man to forgive us” we can go directly to the Father through Jesus himself. We have a God-given Biblical right to do so. I think it is a mistake to put our trust “solely” in man. There is a place for instruction and leadership obviously {Romans 10:14 - I Co. 11:1 - Php. 2:12} Some people don’t pray or read their bible at all they just lean on man for their understanding. They don’t talk to God and have a personal relationship with Jesus at all!

Actually, Jesus made it pretty plain that we are no to come to worship until we have made peace with our brethren. He was clear …" So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matt 5:23-24

We do need to ask forgiveness from one another.

What do you think is “the place for instruction and leadership”?

 

[submittedjoy]

Actually, I think it is you who have missed the whole point of Catholicism! Evidently you do not know that what you have written comes from the Catholic Church (Scripture).Actually it come from the Bible… period… The catholic church does not hold a monopoly on “thus sayeth the Lord”…

Amen! The only point that you seem to have missed is that Jesus has shared HIs priestly ministry with us, and that He calls some to join with Him in His role as mediator.

Here you miss it all together… you put “man’s tradition” above what God says. 1 Timothy 2:5 “There is only one mediator between God and Man…” it goes on to say who that meditor is… Jesus… Period!

 

[Lampo]

1 Timothy 2:5 “There is only one mediator between God and Man…” it goes on to say who that meditor is… Jesus… Period!

Has anyone ever asked you to pray for them? If so, did you?

 

[guanophore]

Here you miss it all together… you put “man’s tradition” above what God says. 1 Timothy 2:5 “There is only one mediator between God and Man…” it goes on to say who that meditor is… Jesus… Period!

I am curious to know where you think you Bible originated. Do you think there was a Bible before the KJV feel out of the sky?

I did not “miss it all together”. I affirm without hesitation that Jesus is the One Mediator between God and Man. He is gracious and generous, and invites us to partake of His ministry of mediation.

Do you really never pray for anyone?!

 

[peary]

The terms ‘mediation’ and ‘intercession’ are understood differently by the Catholic Church. They are not the same.

 

[moondweller]

Has anyone ever asked you to pray for them? If so, did you?

Non sequitur. That is not what 1 Tim. 2:5 is referring to. You praying for someone does not set you up as that person’s “mediator” between him and God.

In the O.T. Moses was Israel’s mediator. Under the Law of Moses (Mosaic Covenant) the Levitical priesthood became that nation’s mediator.

However, this side of the cross, during this church age, Scripture is explicit that we, Christ’s church, have but ONE mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

That’s why you don’t find the word “priest” in the N.T. Scriptures which refer directly to the church Christ is presently building (see Eph. 4:11-12).

 

[jmcrae]

Non sequitur. That is not what 1 Tim. 2:5 is referring to. You praying for someone does not set you up as that person’s “mediator” between him and God.

In the O.T. Moses was Israel’s mediator. Under the Law of Moses (Mosaic Covenant) the Levitical priesthood became that nation’s mediator.

However, this side of the cross, during this church age, Scripture is explicit that we, Christ’s church, have but ONE mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

This is referring to the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It has nothing to do with people praying for us. Mary and the Saints don’t die on the Cross for our sins, and there is no Catholic on earth who thinks that they do. We understand perfectly that the Saints are only praying for us.

That’s why you don’t find the word “priest” in the N.T. Scriptures which refer directly to the church Christ is presently building (see Eph. 4:11-12).

As a matter of fact, the word “presbytereos” (sp?) is found throughout the New Testament; this word means “priest”. I think Protestant Bibles translate it as “elder” or “presbyter” or something like that, but this is, in fact, the Christian (Catholic) priest.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by submittedjoy
Here you miss it all together… you put “man’s tradition” above what God says. 1 Timothy 2:5 “There is only one mediator between God and Man…” it goes on to say who that meditor is… Jesus… Period!

guanophore
I am curious to know where you think you Bible originated. Do you think there was a Bible before the KJV feel out of the sky?

I did not “miss it all together”. I affirm without hesitation that Jesus is the One Mediator between God and Man. He is gracious and generous, and invites us to partake of His ministry of mediation.

Do you really never pray for anyone?!

The difference between catholics and protestants on this issue is significant. We both agree that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man. Catholics believe this but add another “layer” in “spiritual sphere” when they add mediators (Mary and the saints) between us and Jesus.
Protentants believe we can pray directly to Jesus because He alone is the High Priest that intercedes for us before the Father. This can be seen clearly in Hebrews 4:14-16 which says:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The scriptures do not teach that dead saints are also our high priests that can intercede for us. Only Jesus can do this.

 

[jmcrae]

The scriptures do not teach that dead saints are also our high priests that can intercede for us. Only Jesus can do this.

Actually, the Scriptures are full of people interceding in prayer for each other.

What Jesus does for us is He dies on the Cross for us, which is an eternal event that we can access at any time, for the forgiveness of our sins, by means of the Sacraments of His Church.

Jesus doesn’t pray for us however, since He is God, and He is the one to whom the prayers are being directed. The Saints can pray for us to Jesus, and we can also pray for each other.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3408489]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The scriptures do not teach that dead saints are also our high priests that can intercede for us. Only Jesus can do this.

jmcrae
Actually, the Scriptures are full of people interceding in prayer for each other.

There are no examples of dead though people interceding for Christians.

What Jesus does for us is He dies on the Cross for us, which is an eternal event that we can access at any time, for the forgiveness of our sins, by means of the Sacraments of His Church.

Jesus doesn’t pray for us however, since He is God, and He is the one to whom the prayers are being directed. The Saints can pray for us to Jesus, and we can also pray for each other.

So long as you are referring to people who are alive in human bodies here i would agree. Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

 

[jmcrae]

There are no examples of dead though people interceding for Christians.

Revelation 5:8; Revelation 8:1-5. (Who are the dead praying for, then, if not us?)

So long as you are referring to people who are alive in human bodies here i would agree. Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

Revelation 5:8; Revelation 8:1-5. (Again - who are the dead praying for, then, if not us?)

 

[sodak]

Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

Where is THAT in the Bible???

 

[guanophore]

The difference between catholics and protestants on this issue is significant. We both agree that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man. Catholics believe this but add another “layer” in “spiritual sphere” when they add mediators (Mary and the saints) between us and Jesus.

No, ja4. It is only a “layer” in YOUR mind. Catholics understand the Apostolic Teaching about the communion of saints. We are all One Body in Christ. We are all members one of another, and God has fashioned the Body in such a way that we all need one another. The Apostolic Teaching is that the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you”. Therefore, those who are alive on earth do not say to those perfected in faith “I have no need of you”.

Protentants believe we can pray directly to Jesus because He alone is the High Priest that intercedes for us before the Father.

This is part of the Catholic Teaching that has been retained by Protestants.

The scriptures do not teach

You are right on that point. Scripture does not “teach”. People teach.

that dead saints are also our high priests that can intercede for us. Only Jesus can do this.

The Catholic Church does not teach or believe in “dead saints”. We believe that not even death can separate us from the love of God, and that in Christ, we are “alive forevermore”. The newfangled doctrine of “soul sleep” is just that, a newfangled invention of modern man, who needs an excuse to reject Apostolic Teaching (the communion of saints).

Jesus, in his gracious mercy, allows us to participate in His mission to bring the world to Himself.

There are no examples of dead though people interceding for Christians.

Oh, I agree! that would be some form of necromancy, which is strictly forbidden. That is why Catholics only pray to the living.

So long as you are referring to people who are alive in human bodies here i would agree. Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

The saints and angels in the book of Revelation don’t have “human bodies”, yet they are praying. What makes you think a body is required?