Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[justasking4]

guanophore;3409483
Originally Posted by justasking4
The difference between catholics and protestants on this issue is significant. We both agree that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man. Catholics believe this but add another “layer” in “spiritual sphere” when they add mediators (Mary and the saints) between us and Jesus.

guanophore
No, ja4. It is only a “layer” in YOUR mind. Catholics understand the Apostolic Teaching about the communion of saints. We are all One Body in Christ. We are all members one of another, and God has fashioned the Body in such a way that we all need one another. The Apostolic Teaching is that the eye cannot say to the hand “I have no need of you”. Therefore, those who are alive on earth do not say to those perfected in faith “I have no need of you”.

Since you claim that those who have died also need us can you tell me specifically what someone who has died needs from you?

Please tell me who that has died has let you know of their specific need?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

sodak
Where is THAT in the Bible???

Thats just it. Its not in there. You will not find one reference of a person who has died praying for someone here nor will you find any exhortation to do so either.

Lets assume for argument sake the catholic view is correct. How do you know if a person who may be in purgatory:
1 can hear your prayer?

2- can do something about your request?

These are just some of the issues to consider if you believe that people who have died can hear your prayers to them.

 

[submittedjoy]

I am curious to know where you think you Bible originated. Do you think there was a Bible before the KJV feel out of the sky?

I did not “miss it all together”. I affirm without hesitation that Jesus is the One Mediator between God and Man. He is gracious and generous, and invites us to partake of His ministry of mediation.

Do you really never pray for anyone?!

Of course I pray for people. 1 Timothy chaper two tells us to. There is a huge difference of praying for someone and praying too someone.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3409483]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There are no examples of dead though people interceding for Christians.

guanophore
Oh, I agree! that would be some form of necromancy, which is strictly forbidden. That is why Catholics only pray to the living.

Those that practice necromancy do believe that as you do that the deceased in this world are alive in the next and can be communicated with in some fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
So long as you are referring to people who are alive in human bodies here i would agree. Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

guanophore
The saints and angels in the book of Revelation don’t have “human bodies”, yet they are praying. What makes you think a body is required?

i’m making a distinction because of the confusion on catholics about this. If a human being has died, he no longer has any part in this world.

Is the book of Revelation about what is happening now?

 

[sodak]

Thats just it. Its not in there. You will not find one reference of a person who has died praying for someone here nor will you find any exhortation to do so either.

And they say that Catholics don’t read the Bible…

2 Macabees, Chapter 12:

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

I suppose now you’re going to claim that Macabees shouldn’t be in the Bible because Martin Luther said so…

 

[justasking4]

sodak;3409596]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Thats just it. Its not in there. You will not find one reference of a person who has died praying for someone here nor will you find any exhortation to do so either.

sodak;
And they say that Catholics don’t read the Bible…

2 Macabees, Chapter 12:

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Lets look at this passage in detail. Who is the one who is saying this? Is he a prophet of God or something like that?

 

[sodak]

Lets look at this passage in detail. Who is the one who is saying this? Is he a prophet of God or something like that?

Sorry, I was under the impression that God was the author of the Bible.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Lets look at this passage in detail. Who is the one who is saying this? Is he a prophet of God or something like that?

sodak
Sorry, I was under the impression that God was the author of the Bible.

Using the apochyra for support of doctrines is problematic. For one, they were not recognized by the church as fully canonical until the council of Trent. The Jews did not accept them as part of the OT canon either.
Secondly, just because something is said does not mean its the truth.
Thirdly, no writer of the NT supports it either.
Fourth, no recognized author of the apochyra books was considered a prophet.

 

[c659smith]

Since you claim that those who have died also need us can you tell me specifically what someone who has died needs from you?

Please tell me who that has died has let you know of their specific need?

You are fixated in death.
You need to be fixated in life.
Eternal life as the Saints and Mary are not dead

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Since you claim that those who have died also need us can you tell me specifically what someone who has died needs from you?

Please tell me who that has died has let you know of their specific need?

c659smith
You are fixated in death.
You need to be fixated in life.
Eternal life as the Saints and Mary are not dead

Your answer doesn’t help. If it is true that we are all one body and we need each other then this question is something that deserve an answer.

 

[sodak]

Using the apochyra for support of doctrines is problematic. For one, they were not recognized by the church as fully canonical until the council of Trent.

Macabees is part of the Deuterocanonicals, NOT the “apochyra”. The Gospels were not recognized until the Council of Trent either. Are you going to start denying them?

The Jews did not accept them as part of the OT canon either.

Wrong. Some of the Jews didn’t, the Jews in Jesus’s area did.

Secondly, just because something is said does not mean its the truth.

Really? You want to break the news to God, or should I?

Thirdly, no writer of the NT supports it either.

Prove it.

Fourth, no recognized author of the apochyra books was considered a prophet.

See my first comment.

You made a bold assertion that praying for the dead was never mentioned in the Bible. I proved you wrong. You are now too proud to admit it, now it sounds like you are saying that the writer of the particular book of the Bible has to be proven a Prophet, or else that book in the Bible isn’t true. What a load of garbage!

Do you hear yourself?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes, because you cant seperate the divine head Jesus from his body the Catholic church. The two are one, though many members although in one body Jesus Christ.

What God has put together let no man put asunder.Jesus is the bride groom who takes his bride the Catholic church to be one with him, through the baptism and the consummation of the Eucharist where God is all and in all.

Now Jesus is the head, the Catholic church was given the commandment to go out into all the earth and teach all nations , What I have taught you and baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This great commission the Catholic church has been given birth to God’s children faithfully for the last 2 millenium, through baptisms and sacraments… Salvation comes from Jesus Christ and his body the Catholic church, through baptism.

The Catholic church consecrates the bread and wine, inorder for Jesus to be present to his bride at every Mass where the two made one exchange their vows of I love you. Jesus states in his Eucharist I give my life for you, I sacrafice my blood and body for you in order that you might have life eternally, the Catholic church the bride of Jesus Christ, states, Amen, so be it, I do, and I believe in you Jesus, and I as bride will consume your body and blood soul and divinity into my body, where we both become one. As you and the Father are one,

The best way for humanity to come to the saving salvation grace of Jesus Christ is to become a part of his body through baptism, in the Catholic church, where Jesus christ is truly present body, blood, soul and divinity.

 

[c659smith]

Your answer doesn’t help. If it is true that we are all one body and we need each other then this question is something that deserve an answer.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Is this good enough or do you want more.

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

 

[peary]

Of course I pray for people. 1 Timothy chaper two tells us to. There is a huge difference of praying for someone and praying too someone.

Of course, you mean praying TO someone. On the other hand, we can pray for someone TOO.

 

[jmcrae]

Is the book of Revelation about what is happening now?

Yes; the Book of Revelation tells us what was going on in Heaven from the time of Christ’s Resurrection until the deaths of Mary and the Apostles, and then also includes prophecies about what will happen at the Judgment Day. (What the heck did you think it was about? )

 

[c659smith]

Of course, you mean praying TO someone. On the other hand, we can pray for someone TOO.

WE ASK THE Saints to pray for us we do not pray to them as a God.

Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

This part of the prayer is directly from scripture.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death Amen.

We are asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus and God as you ask another. It’s okay she has eternal life you can ask for Her prayers.

 

[peary]

WE ASK THE Saints to pray for us we do not pray to them as a God.

Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

This part of the prayer is directly from scripture.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death Amen.

We are asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus and God as you ask another. It’s okay she has eternal life you can ask for Her prayers.

Well, I don’t know about you, c659, but I have particular saints who I definitely share an affinity with and I talk to them and with them as I would any other person in my life. Because they are in heaven, I also ask them for prayers for perseverence in my life and to help me in any way they see fit. If by ‘praying’ you mean holding an inner conversation with them, then, yes, I am praying TO them, not as God, of course, but as saints in Heaven.

 

[moondweller]

This is referring to the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It has nothing to do with people praying for us. Mary and the Saints don’t die on the Cross for our sins, and there is no Catholic on earth who thinks that they do. We understand perfectly that the Saints are only praying for us.

No, jm. Christ’s mediatorial work is His present, High Priestly work in heaven, functioning there as our Advocate before the Father if we should sin; and the fact that He always lives to make intercession for us He is able to save us forever (see Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1-2). For this reason we need no priests on earth to mediate for us.

Levitical priests were provided for national Israel under the Law, but Christ brought an end to the Law (Rom. 10:4) and its whole sacerdotal system. With our High Priest now powerfully interceding for us in heaven a sacerdotal system on earth is obsolete.

As a matter of fact, the word “presbytereos” (sp?) is found throughout the New Testament; this word means “priest”. I think Protestant Bibles translate it as “elder” or “presbyter” or something like that, but this is, in fact, the Christian (Catholic) priest.

Sorry, but the Greek word for priest is hiereus. Presbuteros is Greek for elder. The N.T., in reference to the church Christ is presently building, knows absolutely nothing of a separate, sacerdotal class in contrast to the laity. As was pointed out, Scripture emphatically states that there is only ONE Mediator between men and God, the Man Christ Jesus. The same who gave Himself as a ransom for all.

 

[c659smith]

Well, I don’t know about you, c659, but I have particular saints who I definitely share an affinity with and I talk to them and with them as I would any other person in my life. Because they are in heaven, I also ask them for prayers for perseverence in my life and to help me in any way they see fit. If by ‘praying’ you mean holding an inner conversation with them, then, yes, I am praying TO them, not as God, of course, but as saints in Heaven.

Which is fine and the prayers (conversations) will passed along to our Lord.Just as we ask prayers from eachother.

Just remember they have no more ability to grant those requests than anyone here on earth all prayers are given to Christ and are granted or denied by Christ for Jesus is the intercessor between Him and the Father.

For none comes to the father except through Me

 

[c659smith]

No, jm. Christ’s mediatorial work is His present, High Priestly work in heaven, functioning there as our Advocate before the Father if we should sin; and the fact that He always lives to make intercession for us He is able to save us forever (see Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1-2). For this reason we need no priests on earth to mediate for us.

Levitical priests were provided for national Israel under the Law, but Christ brought an end to the Law (Rom. 10:4) and its whole sacerdotal system. With our High Priest now powerfully interceding for us in heaven a sacerdotal system on earth is obsolete.Sorry, but the Greek word for priest is hiereus. Presbuteros is Greek for elder. The N.T., in reference to the church Christ is presently building, knows absolutely nothing of a separate, sacerdotal class in contrast to the laity. As was pointed out, Scripture emphatically states that there is only ONE Mediator between men and God, the Man Christ Jesus. The same who gave Himself as a ransom for all.

What are you rambling about?

I can pray for you as well as a Saint.

The prayers are given to Jesus.

Are you saying once in heaven we are not Man?
If we are not then give me the scriptual reference in the NT

Are you saying that those in heaven are not alive and have eternal life?