Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[jmcrae]

No, jm. Christ’s mediatorial work is His present, High Priestly work in heaven, functioning there as our Advocate before the Father if we should sin; and the fact that He always lives to make intercession for us He is able to save us forever (see Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1-2). For this reason we need no priests on earth to mediate for us.

In that Christ’s Crucifixion is eternally present in Heaven, yes, Christ’s work on the Cross is eternal, and continually mediating for us, which is why priests no longer need to continually make blood sacrifices on our behalf.

The Christian priesthood continually offers, not sacrifices for sin (blood sacrifices), but sacrifices of thanksgiving (bread and wine), and Christ then offers back to the priest (and through him, to us) the once and for all blood sacrifice of His work on the Cross, which is what we consume in Holy Communion instead of the flesh of whatever animal would have been sacrificed by the Levitical priests.

 

[moondweller]

What are you rambling about?
I can pray for you as well as a Saint.

That doesn’t make you my mediator.

The prayers are given to Jesus.

No prayers need to be given to Jesus. As our heavenly High Priest He hears all the prayers of His saints on earth.

Are you saying once in heaven we are not Man?

If we are not then give me the scriptual reference in the NT

Are you saying that those in heaven are not alive and have eternal life?

I’m saying what the Bible says:1 Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,"Really can’t get any clearer than that.

 

[moondweller]

At this moment it’s 91 yes,** 80** no. I didn’t think there were 80 non-RCs on this forum. If not, then there are a bunch of RCs that do not believe JC & the RCC is the only way to salvation.

 

[jmcrae]

That doesn’t make you my mediator.

Good, then what are we arguing about?

The Saints are also not our “mediators” - they just pray for us.

 

[moondweller]

In that Christ’s Crucifixion is eternally present in Heaven, yes, Christ’s work on the Cross is eternal, and continually mediating for us,

Nice spin. But 1 Tim. 2:5 states nothing of the sort and makes no reference to an eternal crucifixion of Christ. His crucifixion occurred in this world system into which He incarnated and was born. It began and ended right here on this earth and He Himself proclaimed “it is finished.”

which is why priests no longer need to continually make blood sacrifices on our behalf.

Which is why Communion is to be done “in remembrance” of Him. We proclaim His death until He comes, we don’t re-present it (see 1 Cor. 11:26). Scripture knows of no such notion. There’s no need: “it is finished.”

What was needed to be accomplished for our redemption, our reconciliation and God’s propitiation, was perfectly accomplished right here on earth, “once for all,” and then He was buried and rose again on the third day. The only things eternal about it are the effects and His resurrected, glorified state in which He now intercedes for us as our High Priest in heaven.

It’s impossible for His crucifixion to be eternally present in heaven since it was finished on earth and He is now eternally glorified. It’s how He returned back to heaven. Nor is there any divine revelation stating such an impossibility.

The Christian priesthood continually offers, not sacrifices for sin (blood sacrifices), but sacrifices of thanksgiving (bread and wine), and Christ then offers back to the priest (and through him, to us) the once and for all blood sacrifice of His work on the Cross, which is what we consume in Holy Communion instead of the flesh of whatever animal would have been sacrificed by the Levitical priests.

According to Scripture the only sacrifice required by believes is mentioned in Rom. 12:1:Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship."The only sacrifice believers are involved with this side of the cross is a “living” sacrifice.

 

[Jimmy_B]

At this moment it’s 91 yes,** 80** no. I didn’t think there were 80 non-RCs on this forum. If not, then there are a bunch of RCs that do not believe JC & the RCC is the only way to salvation.

Hello moondweller,

This is kind of a difficult question for many Catholics to answer one why or the other because the answer is not a simple one. It is not in “black or white” but rather a gray issue. Like many things, the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t usually sum-up doctrine in a few sentences, answers often times, take entire “books” to “explain”, understand or appreciate. There are also at times, “exceptions to a rule”. Like real life, answers are not always simply defined.

There will usually be a short answer, like Pope Benedict’s “God is Love” followed up by a “book” or “books” (Encyclicals) to properly understand it’s fuller meaning . This shouldn’t surprise anyone, the process involved in becoming a Catholic Saint sometimes takes a couple hundred years.

The Catholic Church can be viewed much like a big ship in the ocean, a big ship can turn around, 180 degress and go in the opposite direction but a big ship cannot “turn on a dime”. When it come to Christianity, sometimes a long detailed process is the best way to prevent human error.

I hope this helps.

 

[submittedjoy]

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship."[/indent]

Very good! The King James Version says it better!

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[moondweller]

Hello moondweller,

This is kind of a difficult question for many Catholics to answer one why or the other because the answer is not a simple one. It is not in “black or white” but rather a gray issue. Like many things, the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t usually sum-up doctrine in a few sentences, answers often times, take entire “books” to “explain”, understand or appreciate. There are also at times, “exceptions to a rule”. Like real life, answers are not always simply defined.

There will usually be a short answer, like Pope Benedict’s “God is Love” followed up by a “book” or “books” (Encyclicals) to properly understand it’s fuller meaning . This shouldn’t surprise anyone, the process involved in becoming a Catholic Saint sometimes takes a couple hundred years.

The Catholic Church can be viewed much like a big ship in the ocean, a big ship can turn around, 180 degress and go in the opposite direction but a big ship cannot “turn on a dime”. When it come to Christianity, sometimes a long detailed process is the best way to prevent human error.

I hope this helps.

Yes. Very unlike divine salvation as revealed in the Scriptures, which is based completely on Christ and uncomplicated GRACE.

Men have made salvation difficult, not God. Leave it to men to confound a simple thing like a GIFT (Eph. 2:8-9). :coffeeread: Good morning, Jimmy. Are you like me and have a hard time sleeping with the time change?

 

[moondweller]

Very good! The King James Version says it better!

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Yes, anything else is considered “unreasonable.”

 

[jmcrae]

Very good! The King James Version says it better!

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Obviously this is also part of it. Personal sacrifices are also essential to the Christian lifestyle - we can’t go around getting rich off of other people’s poverty, or indulging ourselves - we have to have a spirit of poverty and generosity. This, too, is very, very Catholic.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3408590]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There are no examples of dead though people interceding for Christians.

jmcrae
Revelation 5:8; Revelation 8:1-5. (Who are the dead praying for, then, if not us?)

Here is Revelations 5:8- When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
There is to mention here in this verse of “praying to these dead saints” but that the angels have "bowls of incense …which contain the.prayers of the saints.

Quote: justasking4
So long as you are referring to people who are alive in human bodies here i would agree. Once someone has died they no longer can pray for you.

jmcrae
Revelation 5:8; Revelation 8:1-5. (Again - who are the dead praying for, then, if not us?)

In Revelations 8:1-5 it is the same kind of idea. There is no prayers coming from earth that are being addressed directly to any created being in heaven.

Do you have access to a catholic commentary on these passages? If so, what do they say this means?

 

[Lampo]

The Jews did not accept them as part of the OT canon either.

The Jews that you are referring to also reject the NT! The Jewish council that decided this was Jamnia in 90AD. They used the Palestinian Canon as opposed to the Alexandrian (Septuagint), which Jesus used. This is precisely why the Church declared the Canon of Scripture to consist of 73 books. So, if you consider the Council of Jamnia as authoritative, you also need to reject the NT. You are following a Jewish Council that rejected Christ and the revelation of the New Testament.

 

[jmcrae]

Here is Revelations 5:8- When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
There is to mention here in this verse of “praying to these dead saints” but that the angels have "bowls of incense …which contain the.prayers of the saints.

What, or who, are the Saints praying for? Themselves? (They are already in Heaven.)

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3411037]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Here is Revelations 5:8- When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
There is to mention here in this verse of “praying to these dead saints” but that the angels have "bowls of incense …which contain the.prayers of the saints.

jmcrae
What, or who, are the Saints praying for? Themselves? (They are already in Heaven.)

What makes you think these saints are in heaven?
As for what exactly these prayers are it doesn’t say.

 

[jmcrae]

What makes you think these saints are in heaven?

Because it’s a vision of Heaven?

As for what exactly these prayers are it doesn’t say.

True, it’s not specific. However, at the same time that St. John was writing these words, people were in the Catacombs writing prayers to the Saints in Heaven.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3411133]Because it’s a vision of Heaven?

I agree but he says nothing about saints being present in heaven at this time as far as i can tell.

True, it’s not specific. However, at the same time that St. John was writing these words, people were in the Catacombs writing prayers to the Saints in Heaven.

This does not mean these are the prayers that are in the bowls of incense though. Better to say we just don’t know.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree but he says nothing about saints being present in heaven at this time as far as i can tell.

Who is he talking about, then? (Who are the 24 Elders?)

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I agree but he says nothing about saints being present in heaven at this time as far as i can tell.



Who is he talking about, then? (Who are the 24 Elders?)

It doesn’t say. It could mean a number of things.

 

[jmcrae]

It doesn’t say. It could mean a number of things.

It seems obvious to me that they are in Heaven. (I am often accused of being somewhat simple-minded, though. Perhaps you could show me what else it could mean?)

 

[steve_b]

I’m letting the Scriptures stand on their own. The interpretation that Peter meant “Babylon” to be a code word for Rome is just that.

That you can say you’ll let scripture stand on its own requires you then to accept the Catholic Church’s interpretation, AND decision to admit 1 Pet, as well as all 73 books as scripture.