Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[KJK80]

Where in the passages you quote is it spoken of a “speaks of a cleansing fire” in relation to sin?

I would say that largely depends on your views of heaven & hell. Though I could be off track in saying that.

 

[distracted]

Polygamy has ceased to be a Mormon belief

There are some sects that still practice it, secretly… And also, this is a big belief to just do a 180 on… I mean, the truth never changes… so that proves right there that the Mormon religion is not the right one.

If anyone thinks the Catholic Church has changed doctrine, he/she doesn’t understand things… certain doctrines (dogmas) do not & cannot change…

 

[justasking4]

Hello again justasking4,

I am glad you agree in part, but it is important to know that all Truth and all Goodness originate from God, Jesus Christ is God! The “teachings” in the Old Testament and those in the New Testament, including those outside the “red letter” portions, come from God as well.

Jesus is God! He is the second person of the Holy Trinity.

I hope this helps.

Peace** **

Are there any teachings of Jesus outside the OT and NT?

 

[Lampo]

Didn’t know that, huh?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Are there any teachings of Jesus outside the OT and NT?

Hello again justasking4

Technically speaking, every book, every movie, every sermon and what people post here, for example that comment on Jesus or His “teachings, are Christian " teachings” of Jesus, which are “outside the OT and NT”, using your quote here.

Maybe you should stop posting… (just kidding)…Do you see my point?

The traditon of Christmas and Easter are not in the Bible, should we put a stop to these Christian traditions?

You might find this interesting – the Didache

Also look here and here

2 Timothy 16-16
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
1 Corinthians 11:2
2 praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours
John 21:21
25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Peace

 

[justasking4]

Jimmy B;3501090]Hello again justasking4

Technically speaking, every book, every movie, every sermon and what people post here, for example, are Christian " teachings of Jesus", which are “outside the OT and NT”, using your quote here.

Maybe you should stop posting… (just kidding)…Do you see my point?

The traditon of Christmas and Easter are not in the Bible, should we put a stop to these Christian traditions?

No. These are “traditions” that are grounded in Scripture and they help us to focus directly on Christ. Would that all traditions were like this.

You might find this interesting – the Didache

Also look here and here

2 Timothy 16-16
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
1 Corinthians 11:2
2 praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:1515 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours
John 21:21
25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Peace ]

i’m not against all traditions but against those traditions that distract from the purity and devotion to Christ.

 

[Jimmy_B]

No. These are “traditions” that are grounded in Scripture and they help us to focus directly on Christ. Would that all traditions were like this…i’m not against all traditions but against those traditions that distract from the purity and devotion to Christ.

Hello again justasking4,

Ok, so 'traditions" are fine if **"**grounded in Scripture". You’ll be happy to learn that Catholic traditions are “grounded in Scripture” and do not “distract from the purity and devotion to Christ”, they all lead Catholics to Jesus Christ.

This seems to be a departure from your earlier stance of “Bible alone” and in some cases “New Testament alone” and “red-letter alone” (here and on other threads at CAF).

Maybe you are slowly becoming Catholic and don’t know it.

Just so, you know, the Roman Catholic Church started the holiday Christian “tradition” of Christmas and Easter.

Peace

 

[peary]

Yeah, it is, at least in today’s common language. Granted, it’s the largest denomination of Christianity, and perhaps the most correct (open to interpretation by some), but it’s a denomination in everyday terms. To say otherwise, is just silly, confusing, and stubborn.

Catholicism is NOT a denomination. To ‘de-nominate’ something or someone is to “cut off” the relationship, to ‘de-name’. In stricter terms, it derives from the custom of family relationships in the Mediterranean area - if a member does something seriously wrong or deceives the family, that member is “cut-off”; the person is considered ‘dead’. De-nominations are those ecclesial communities that have cut themselves off from the fullness of Christian Faith and the graces derived from Christ through His Church.

Now, another question: do any of their members have the means to be saved and have eternal life? In this sense - a valid Baptism (Triune), and they have Scripture which can deepen their baptismal experience. It is definitely true when Christ said “Where two or more are gathered, there am I in the midst of them” but this is not the same as Eucharist or the graces from the sacramental life.

 

[justasking4]

Jimmy B;3501206]Hello again justasking4,

Ok, so 'traditions" are fine if **"**grounded in Scripture". You’ll be happy to learn that Catholic traditions are “grounded in Scripture” and do not “distract from the purity and devotion to Christ”, they all lead Catholics to Jesus Christ.

This is one of the major contentions between catholics and protestants. I know the catholic church claims what you say but when you look closely at the scriptures, how the scriptures are used to support various tradiitions i.e. doctrines and practices we don’t see this devortion to Christ but something else. If we are going to “see” we must see with the knowledge of the scriptures.

This seems to be a departure from your earlier stance of “Bible alone” and in some cases “New Testament alone” and “red-letter alone” (here and on other threads at CAF).

i realize that there are authorities in the church and practices but we must always measure these things be the scriptures. It is the Scriptures that have authority over the church and not the church that has authority over the scriptures make doctrines and practices not grounded in the scriptures. This is another fundamental difference.

Maybe you are slowly becoming Catholic and don’t know it.

FONT=Times New Roman]
Just so, you know, the Roman Catholic Church started the holiday Christian “tradition” of Christmas and Easter.

Peace

Sometimes catholics get things right—

 

[Jimmy_B]

**

peary

posted in post #785 - “Catholicism is NOT a denomination. To ‘de-nominate’ something or someone is to “cut off” the relationship, to ‘de-name’…”**
Hello** peary, **you are right on correcting mikew262, in stating the Catholicism is not a Christian denomination.

Catholicism is Christianity and Catholicism represents the earliest and purist expression of the Christian Faith. It is the first Christian religion. All other expressions of Christianity, which followed Catholicism, are Christian denominations.

All other expressions of Christianity, which followed Catholicism, are denominations of Christianity and not Catholicism because at some point, they have all rejected and removed various aspects of the original expression of Christianity - Catholicism.

To call Catholicism a denomination, would be to a call the “clay”… the “clay pot”. Denominations can be viewed as, many differently shaped clay pots, but they all originate from the same “clay”…

All Christian denominations are based on Catholicism, where Catholicism comes directly from Jesus Christ and not from another other Christian denomination. Only Catholicism can make this claim.

Peace

 

[mikew262]

With all due respect, you are wrong on two accounts. First, I wasn’t hinting that Catholics are “better” than non-Catholics. I think a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas applies here; “Things are received according to the mode of the recipient.” Second, the Catholic Church does not consider itself a denomination. The Catholic Church considers itself the one founded by Jesus Christ. The Catholic Churche does not use this term as its implication of interchangeability does not agree with its theological teachings.

Well of course the Catholic Church doesn’t consider itself a denomination; it considers itself the one true church, and everybody else are imperfect copies. To say otherwise might hint that it is no better than all the other denominations. However, in everyday common language, the Catholic Church is thought of as a denomination just like all the other slices of Christianity.

 

[mikew262]

Hi Justakin4,

You are incorrect. That Catholic Church, has not “added” anything to Christianity, the Catholic Church is Christianity.

The Catholic Church did not create Christianity, The Catholic Church defines Christianity and the Catholic Church defines aspects of Christianity, base on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Traditions. These Sacred traditions would include the Seven Holy Sacraments.

The Seven Sacraments

1.   [Baptism](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=1)

2.   [Penance/Reconciliation](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=4)

3.   [Eucharist](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=2)

4.   [Confirmation](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=3)

5.   [Matrimony](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=7)

6.   [Holy Orders](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=6)

7.   [Anointing of the Sick](http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=5)

The Catholic Church is not the “Church of a Book”. The Catholic Church, infallibly guided by the Holy Sprit, collected, organized and approved the “Book” - the Bible. Christianity was not based or founded on a “Book”, it is based on Jesus Christ and Founded on, and by Jesus Christ. We that Follow Christ, are called Christians…not Bible-ists

Peace

While your zeal for the Church is admirable, there is more to Christianity than just the Catholic Church. I’m Catholic and I don’t make statements like that. While the Catholic Church is the predominant denomination/slice of Christianity, it’s not the only one by far. Many faithful Christ loving non-catholic Christians would be insulted by a statement like that and rightfully so. Be careful. :tsktsk:

If by chance I misinterpreted what you said, then I apologize.

 

[KJK80]

While your zeal for the Church is admirable, there is more to Christianity than just the Catholic Church. I’m Catholic and I don’t make statements like that. While the Catholic Church is the predominant denomination/slice of Christianity, it’s not the only one by far. Many faithful Christ loving non-catholic Christians would be insulted by a statement like that and rightfully so. Be careful. :tsktsk:

If by chance I misinterpreted what you said, then I apologize.

And that message would have been better said in private, technically. As would this message, that you’re reading right now…

 

[Jimmy_B]

While your zeal for the Church is admirable, there is more to Christianity than just the Catholic Church. I’m Catholic and I don’t make statements like that. While the Catholic Church is the predominant denomination/slice of Christianity, it’s not the only one by far. Many faithful Christ loving non-catholic Christians would be insulted by a statement like that and rightfully so. Be careful. :tsktsk:

If by chance I misinterpreted what you said, then I apologize.

I accept your apology Mike.

 

[mikew262]

mikew262;3498595:

Yeah, it is, at least in today’s common language. Granted, it’s the largest denomination of Christianity, and perhaps the most correct (open to interpretation by some), but it’s a denomination in everyday terms. To say otherwise, is just silly, confusing, and stubborn.

Catholicism is NOT a denomination. To ‘de-nominate’ something or someone is to “cut off” the relationship, to ‘de-name’. In stricter terms, it derives from the custom of family relationships in the Mediterranean area - if a member does something seriously wrong or deceives the family, that member is “cut-off”; the person is considered ‘dead’. De-nominations are those ecclesial communities that have cut themselves off from the fullness of Christian Faith and the graces derived from Christ through His Church.

Now, another question: do any of their members have the means to be saved and have eternal life? In this sense - a valid Baptism (Triune), and they have Scripture which can deepen their baptismal experience. It is definitely true when Christ said “Where two or more are gathered, there am I in the midst of them” but this is not the same as Eucharist or the graces from the sacramental life.

I think it’s funny that some Catholics get all wrapped around the axle if you call Catholicism a denomination. I’ll say again, while maybe not technically correct, in common everyday language Catholicism is considered a denomination just like a Methodist, Baptist , etc… I’ve fill out enough forms in my life where under “Religious Denomination” (Yes, some say preference vs. denomination, I’ve seen it both ways), I’ve answered Catholic. It’s just not that big a deal.

 

[KJK80]

Let me rephrase what Jimmy’s trying to say.

Catholicism ROCKS like a hurricane… only without the destruction… or something. Ok maybe somebody else can come up with something better.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I think it’s funny that some Catholics get all wrapped around the axle if you call Catholicism a denomination. I’ll say again, while maybe not technically correct, in common everyday language Catholicism is considered a denomination just like a Methodist, Baptist , etc… I’ve fill out enough forms in my life where under “Religious Denomination” (Yes, some say preference vs. denomination, I’ve seen it both ways), I’ve answered Catholic. It’s just not that big a deal.

“while maybe not technically correct”

I agree but only on this point (in blue).

Why do you keep linking your quotes to peary as if they are peary’s quotes? Is this intentional or accidental?

Peace

 

[guanophore]

It appears your catechism says something different. What do you think this means?
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . **All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, **and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

This is a reference to those outside the catholic church.

No, ja4. These people are considered members of the Catholic Church. They are improperly joined to the one Body, but since there is only one Body, and all who are bapized properly are members of it, they are considered Catholic. Rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff, as one of my peers has noted.

On the other hand, persons such as yourself can most certainly be charged with willfull separation. Because, in spite of all you have learned, you still deny that we are all members of the same Body!

Are these protestant churches who do not accept the authority of a pope still saved without the catholic church?

There is only one Church, and one Body. All who are saved are members of it. Does it bother you that Catholics consider you catholic?

Here are some things that the catholic church has added i.e. doctrines and practices that the NT church did not have. Even catholic scholars admit to these things:
Purgatory which is not even mentioned until around the 3rd century.

That is because “purgation” is a Latin word, and prior to that time, most theology was written in Greek. However, the concept is clear in the NT. The same is true for the word “Trinity” which is not found in the NT, but the concepts are.

Indulgences–there is no sanction of this in the church fathers and nor Scripture. [/quute]

On the contrary, we see these practices dated back to the intertestamental period.
justasking4;3499054:

Treasury of Merit-Not seen until around the 13th century. Again, not only is this not found in scripture but is absent in the church fathers.

Actually, we do see this very clearly in scripture, though the term is not used. This, however, as well as the other two doctrines above are all related to the Communion of Saints. When this Apostolic Teaching is rejected, it is hard to understand how anything else fits.

Do you have some support for this assertion? Does the catechism say this or church fathers?

Did you not recall that the book of Acts records that the followers of Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch?

I agree your church may do these things but that does not mean they are automatically true.

They are certainly not true for those who reject the Apostolic Teaching.

What Sacred Traditions specifically are you referring to in regards to your claim that they defined Christianity?

There is One Church, One Body, One Lord, One Baptism. The Apostles and their successors defined what it meant to be Christian from the time they were thrown out of the synagogues to the present day. Every time a challenge comes up, more defining is done. This is the job of the Magesterium.

You said a mouthful here. Since you claim the catholic church is not a “Church of a Book” but is based Jesus Christ then i don’t know what you mean by this. The only teachings we have of Jesus Christ can only be found in the New Testament which it appears you reject as an authority over your church. If this is true, what Jesus are you speaking of since there are no teachings of Christ outside the NT?

Nothing exists FOR YOU, ja4, because you have rejected the divine deposit of faith that you cannot find in your book. However, Christianity was never intended to be a “religion of the book”. Jesus founded a Church, not a book. He built His church upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, not upon a book.

 

[KJK80]

in common everyday language Catholicism is

I have a hard time grasping how you find this acceptable… During my growing up, “in common everyday language Catholicism” was not even considered Christian. How far can we go with generalizations before you no longer find it acceptable?

I’m honestly not pointing you out here… however I think lots of Catholic’s feel this way these days, and it confuses me a bit.

Also, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m extremely proud to be a Catholic, and am still very ecumenical to my entire family (which is anti-Catholic), however, I will not water down my beliefs to fit in with how other’s see things. I don’t understand why anybody would want to. But maybe I’m just strange.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I have a hard time grasping how you find this acceptable… During my growing up, “in common everyday language Catholicism” was not even considered Christian. How far can we go with generalizations before you no longer find it acceptable?

I’m honestly not pointing you out here… I’ve seen a lot of good posts from you (not that my opinion matters in the least), however I think lots of Catholic’s feel this way these days, and it confuses me a bit.

Also, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m extremely proud to be a Catholic, and am still very ecumenical to my entire family (which is anti-Catholic), however, I will not water down my beliefs to fit in with how other’s see things. I don’t understand why anybody would want to. But maybe I’m just strange.

Hi KJK80, the quote that you are commenting on here - "in common everyday language Catholicism…" is actually a quote from** mikew262** here at post # 763 not from peary. Mike appears you be linking his quotes to peary. This is not peary’s quote.

Peace