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peacelight
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I could not have said it better myself.
Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?
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BloodWashed
Guest
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thne heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9.
The end.
If I infer that in 2 Timothy, the man caught up to the third heaven was Paul, am I adding to scripture? No. I’m inferring. You compare scripture with scripture. I’m not just foolishly putting my own spin on it. Let’s take out the words “Born Again” and “Saved.” The message in Matt. 7 stays the same. The people being judged worked WONDERFUL WORKS, but Christ still cast them into the lake of fire. This ought to show that your wonderful works cannot save you.
And no one has yet answered my three problems:
Romans 4:4-5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Jesus told the malefactor on the cross he was going to heaven. The malefactor was a CRIMINAL. He probably never worked a good work in his life–he was dieing for his sins. He most certainly didn’t hop off the cross and go live a good life from then on. All he did was confess Jesus.
When Paul and Silas sing down the jail, the prison guard asks what he must do to be saved. They tell him “Believe on Jesus.” They didn’t say ANYTHING about baptism, or feeding the hungry, or clothing the naked. If you need those things to be saved, then Paul and Silas LIED to the poor guy!
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Lampo
Guest
Most Protestant Bibles don’t anymore. Nonetheless, it is a fact Martin Luther added the word “alone” to Rom. 3:28.
Please do. Not so much for my benefit, but for yours. I already know the history.
You are using a Bible with the tradition developed by a man attached to it. You are using a Bible with the exact same Canon as the Jewish Palestinian Canon. The Jewish council (Jamnia) that determined this Canon (the current Protestant Bible) also denied Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
I think we are on the same page here.
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Lampo
Guest
As much as you would like for it to be “the end”, it simply is not. Did St. Paul confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in his heart that God was raised from the dead? I’m sure you agree that he did. Why would St. Paul say this, “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”? What does he think he could be disqualified from?
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BloodWashed
Guest
I think what Paul is saying here is that he wants to make sure he is living what he is preaching, so that he doesn’t appear a hypocrite, but I can’t be sure. I’ll have to get back to you.
Neverthelss, 1 John 5:13 screams as loud as ever: That ye might KNOW ye have eternal life.
Plus, many Bible scholars believe that Paul had already died and gone to heaven once, and God sent him back to earth to keep preaching. Paul knew he was going to heaven–he went there. He said that his sould longeth to be with Christ, but that he was sticking around on earth for the people who needed him. Paul knew he was going to heaven, and everyone can know for sure.
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distracted
Guest
If you believe enough to confess Christ with your mouth to the whole world and believe in your very heart (the part that is really YOU), you know Jesus enough to be saved… and this passage says “thou shalt BE SAVED…” (future tense) It does not say:
You ARE Saved…
It DOES NOT say that Christ cast them into the lake of fire… And also, just because Jesus rejects a person at the gate of Heaven, does not mean He rejects them forever & always… It could be he rejects them temporary and they go to Purgatory to get their sins purged off their souls… Of course, i am not going to say absolutely that that is the case with these Scriptures… I submit all my thoughts and conjectures to the authority of the Beautiful Church Christ established… (I also don’t have my Bible handy…)
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that works save a person… Though works are necessary for salvation, it is not the works per se that get you saved…
Again, how can you say you love Christ if you do not do as he says? And he says to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners… If you love Jesus you will do these things instead of making excuses about how you don’t need to ;'cause youre already saved (You have 'arrived")…
I would have to get my Bible here in order to see the context in which this passage appears. But without my Bible… or a priest or (etc)… I would say that this means that, if i am somehow unable to do any works (and even praying for people is a work of charity, probably one of the highest ones…) then i can “rest” in Jesus Christ (His person) and, well, my faith in Him is counted as righteousness… which also explains the thief on the cross who couldn’t do good works. His good work was accepting Christ and repenting of his sins… and also, there is no absolute way of knowing that this man didn’t go to Purgatory before he entered Heaven… Or… and/or, he could have offered up his crucifixion … as expiation for his sins…
When Jesus said, “I say to you this day you will be with me in Paradise.” Well, where is paradise? Is that Heaven? Not necessarily. It could be a reasonably high level of Purgatory… (the lower depths would not be called paradise, i am sure
)… Also, in that statement of Christ’s at the Cross, to the thief, it depends of which words you emphasize, what exactly the meaning is… Try emphasizing different words in that statemnet and you will understand what i mean…Jesus knows better than we do what good works we are capable of. Obvioiusly, no one believes that Jesus would condemn this thief to Hell (or even to the lowest part of Purgatory) just because he was totally incapable of doing works of charity…
Also you don’t seem to realize that works are not always things like giving clothing to the poor, visiting people in prison. Works are also: forgiving people when you don’t feel like it, when you feel like holding onto your anger/ bitterness, etc… Praying for people is a work (especially when you would rather do something else… [or think you would…]…)l
Part of believing in Jesus is to do everything, absolutely everything he says, or at least attempt to do all that has been revealed to you to do…
Jesus said elsewhere to go to the ends of the earth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…
You can’t just make a whole religious system out of one or two scripture passages…
God bless…
D
distracted
Guest
Amen… Once saved Always saved is a very dangerous belief system. Even if a person has accepted Christ and been filled with the Spirit, he/she will have to undergo Purgatory to be perfectly ready for Heaven (Revelation 21:27, etc.)… Unless the person died as soon as he/she accepted Christ and was baptized. That is one the few instances where a person would probably enter Heaven directly…
The marian apparitions (Mary) tells us that a lot of people go to Hell and very few enter heaven directly.
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distracted
Guest
Thank you for the encouragement. I sometimes get discouraged by all the negativity on the forums and have thought of “retiring” therefromI could not have said it better myself.
but then i got to thinking that maybe i could contribute something (or better yet, that Jesus could contribute something through me)…God bless…
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BloodWashed
Guest
The reason for the tensing in Romans 10:9 has to do with the English language, nothing else. If I were to say to my friend’s little sister: “If you clean up your room, you’ll get a fudge pop,” That doesn’t mean anyting other than clean room=fudge pop. The future tense in the second part of the conditional statement is there because it is something that happens in the future after the first part has been fufilled.If you believe enough to confess Christ with your mouth to the whole world and believe in your very heart (the part that is really YOU), you know Jesus enough to be saved… and this passage says “thou shalt BE SAVED…” (future tense) It does not say:
You ARE Saved…
It DOES NOT say that Christ cast them into the lake of fire… And also, just because Jesus rejects a person at the gate of Heaven, does not mean He rejects them forever & always… It could be he rejects them temporary and they go to Purgatory to get their sins purged off their souls… Of course, i am not going to say absolutely that that is the case with these Scriptures… I submit all my thoughts and conjectures to the authority of the Beautiful Church Christ established… (I also don’t have my Bible handy…)
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that works save a person… Though works are necessary for salvation, it is not the works per se that get you saved…
Again, how can you say you love Christ if you do not do as he says? And he says to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners… If you love Jesus you will do these things instead of making excuses about how you don’t need to ;'cause youre already saved (You have 'arrived")…
I would have to get my Bible here in order to see the context in which this passage appears. But without my Bible… or a priest or (etc)… I would say that this means that, if i am somehow unable to do any works (and even praying for people is a work of charity, probably one of the highest ones…) then i can “rest” in Jesus Christ (His person) and, well, my faith in Him is counted as righteousness… which also explains the thief on the cross who couldn’t do good works. His good work was accepting Christ and repenting of his sins… and also, there is no absolute way of knowing that this man didn’t go to Purgatory before he entered Heaven… Or… and/or, he could have offered up his crucifixion … as expiation for his sins…
When Jesus said, “I say to you this day you will be with me in Paradise.” Well, where is paradise? Is that Heaven? Not necessarily. It could be a reasonably high level of Purgatory… (the lower depths would not be called paradise, i am sure
Also you don’t seem to realize that works are not always things like giving clothing to the poor, visiting people in prison. Works are also: forgiving people when you don’t feel like it, when you feel like holding onto your anger/ bitterness, etc… Praying for people is a work (especially when you would rather do something else… [or think you would…]…)l
Part of believing in Jesus is to do everything, absolutely everything he says, or at least attempt to do all that has been revealed to you to do…
Jesus said elsewhere to go to the ends of the earth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…
You can’t just make a whole religious system out of one or two scripture passages…
God bless…
Any of your arguments with involve the word “purgatory” are obselete because there is no biblical justification for purgatory. The presecence of purgatory implies that we could suffer for our sins for x-amount of years in order to be good enough for heaven. My Bible says for the wages of sin is DEATH. Not suffering for a couple years in purgatory, death. If your sins are not paid for, you’re going to be paying for EVER.
I have no problem doing works. I like doing good works. Good works are good. Good works help me fellowship with the Father. Hooray for good works!
However, if I never worked a good work again in my life, I’d still go to heaven. Christ did all the work! My sins are washed away! 1 John 1:7 says so. If my sins are washed away, then they’re flat out gone. I don’t need to do anything to reconcile for sins that don’t exist.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204&version=9;
There’s your context for the Romans 4 quote. The whole chapter is talking about faith, and how you don’t need works to go to heaven. Works are great, but they are a FRUIT of salvation, not a means to salvation.
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distracted
Guest
The Bible isn’t big enough to hold all that Jesus said and did… and it says that in the Bible.
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peacelight
Guest
You are welcome I myself need encouragement. I have been tempted before by all the negativity not just from the forum but other website too. I tell you the power of prayers is very powerful. If you seek the truth Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth and help us to show and lead someone to the truth through us. Never stop spread the truth. Just remember where there is truth there is God. God bless you too.Thank you for the encouragement. I sometimes get discouraged by all the negativity on the forums and have thought of “retiring” therefrom
God bless…
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jmcrae
Guest
So, what this means is that if we follow Christ throughout our entire lives (not just at one moment in time) then we will go to Heaven. St. Paul deals with those who fall away from the faith in other passages of his epistles, and he doesn’t sound very optimistic, in those cases. It doesn’t seem as though St. Paul believed in “once saved always saved” especially in his many rebukes to the Church at Corinth.
You misunderstand the teaching about Purgatory. No educated Catholic thinks he’s going to be “forgiven of sins” in Purgatory - that happens in the Confessional with Jesus, during this lifetime. Those who have been to Confession and who have been given the forgiveness of their sins there by Jesus (in the person of His priest) will go to Purgatory to become detached from their inclination to sin - not from the sins themselves.
If anyone dies with unforgiven sin, he will go to Hell; not to Purgatory.
True, you don’t. Our sins are washed away by Christ in baptism and in Reconciliation. But if someone never gets baptized, or never goes to Reconciliation, he cannot imagine, or pretend to himself, that his sins have been washed away, yet - they haven’t.
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peacelight
Guest
Purgatory in Scriptures. Please read for those who doesn’t believe that Purgatory is existed. Then you decide.
geocities.com/heartland/plains/7955/ptory.html
geocities.com/heartland/plains/7955/ptory.html
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Lampo
Guest
The Church doesn’t declare how long one spends in purgatory. It may be instantaneous. We don’t know for sure.
- Are you perfect now?
- Will you be perfect in Heaven?(assuming you make it there!)
- If you answered “no” to question #1, then “yes” to question #2, what changed in you?
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distracted
Guest
Exactly what traditions are u calling “man’s” ? Jesus condemned only man-made tradition, not God-made tradition…
Many non-Catholics have man-made traditions: private interpetation is one (the book of Peter [1 or 2??] says we are not to personally interpret Scripture…
another one is believing the Bible to be the sole authority - when Jesus said that it was the Church against which the gates of Hell would not prevail. He never promised that the gates of Hell (Satan) would not prevail against antyhing or anyone else… just the Church… If a person is outside His church… well, good luck… is all i can say… Jesus knew what he was doing when he built his Church (st. Matthew 16:18)… He (and He alone) knows how weak and vulnerable and needy we are… He did things in his Church just the way they needed to be done… Then Martin Luther came alone and wreaked havok…
It is very true that certain religious people, those who just go and warm a pew every Sunday or even those who do great things for the Church (etc.) but the Word goes in one ear & out the other, are not going to make it… but that does not mean that going to Church and loving the Church (obeying…) and therefore being “religious” is a bad thing… I have been filled with the Holy Spirit (the term the Church uses…), and i am more devout Roman Catholic than i have ever been in my life… (because i have studied the catechism, Church history and secular history). As Newman (covert) said, “to be deep into history is to cease to be Protestant”.
But i came back to the Catholic faith long before i studied history… (…long story…)… i would not, repeat NOT be a strong Christian today if it weren’t for the Catholic Church…
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Lampo
Guest
Do you have to forgive others that have sinned against you in order to have your sins forgiven by God and attain eternal life in Heaven?
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BloodWashed
Guest
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peacelight
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jmcrae
Guest
BloodWashed;3591134:
This is accurate.
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