Is Jesus God?

[StrawberryJam]

Jesus said he raised himself up. Now, if he is not God as you propose, then what do we say about that?
If he is not God, then there really isn’t anything special about his being here. Any good teacher could have done what he did then. And, there would be no need for a miracle birth.

 

[Martin_R]

Stop blaspheming!

Jesus was accused of blasphemy in Mark 2:

5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves, 7 “What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!” NLT

Did Jesus reply, “Actually, I am God, so I can forgive sins.”?

No, he tells them:

v10 I will prove that I, the Son of Man, have the authority on earth to forgive sins."

and who gave Him that authority? God:

Matthew 9
8 Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority.[a]

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 9:8 Greek for giving such authority to human beings.

I’m still very busy and will try to respond to all the other comments when I can.
I’m not just picking those I like and ignoring the rest, it was just that I was reading Mark 2 today and spotted the answer to one of your comments. Coincedence?

 

[zach_dunn]

The Son of God - like He said.
But not God the Son - a phrase that is not in the Bible.
Holy? Yes. But not God.

God also said it was not HIm:

Luke 9:35
Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.”(NLT)

not

“This is me in bodily form, listen to me”.

Sorry for the delay in posting, I’m very busy but do have plenty more to add.

He was indeed the Son of God, which means that God is His father:

John 5:18 “18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.”

You see, Jesus being the Son of God implies equality, the Jews knew that. There’s also John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

I ask you to have faith in Christ and believe Him when He says He is God.

Pax,
Zach

P.S. There are many other instances where Jesus claims to be God.

P.P.S. A mere human’s death could not have taken away the sin of the world.

 

[MDK]

Jesus was accused of blasphemy in Mark 2:

5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves, 7 “What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!” NLT

Did Jesus reply, “Actually, I am God, so I can forgive sins.”?

No, he tells them:

v10 I will prove that I, the Son of Man, have the authority on earth to forgive sins."

and who gave Him that authority? God:

Matthew 9
8 Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority.[a]

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 9:8 Greek for giving such authority to human beings.

I’m still very busy and will try to respond to all the other comments when I can.
I’m not just picking those I like and ignoring the rest, it was just that I was reading Mark 2 today and spotted the answer to one of your comments. Coincedence?

The huge difference is that Jesus is God, and He did not blaspheme. He has authority, because He is God. He is in perfect union and communion with the Father, who begot Him. However, Jesus is uncreated, as He is begotten. Only those who have the Holy Spirit will be able to say “Jesus is Lord.”

You are not God, and are blaspheming. Please stop! It’s for your own sake.

Jesus is my Lord and my God. He is God over all creation.

 

[zach_dunn]

Jesus was accused of blasphemy in Mark 2:

5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves, 7 “What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!” NLT

Did Jesus reply, “Actually, I am God, so I can forgive sins.”?

No, he tells them:

v10 I will prove that I, the Son of Man, have the authority on earth to forgive sins."

and who gave Him that authority? God:

Matthew 9
8 Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority.[a]

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 9:8 Greek for giving such authority to human beings.

I’m still very busy and will try to respond to all the other comments when I can.
I’m not just picking those I like and ignoring the rest, it was just that I was reading Mark 2 today and spotted the answer to one of your comments. Coincedence?

The RSV-CE says this:

“5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’ 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 ‘Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ 8 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, ‘Why do you question thus in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, “Your sins are forgiven,” or to say, “Rise, take up your pallet and walk?” 10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins’”

This is a little clearer to me. Now, Jesus says nothing here to suggest that He is not God. He uses the term “Son of man”, does that mean He is not the Son of God? No, just like saying He is the Son of man does not mean that He is not God. Why does he use “Son of man” then? He uses it to stress that He is exercising His authority AS MAN. This sets up the sacrament of confession which is laid out in passages such as Mt 16:18-19, Mt 18:18, and Jn 20:22-23.

Pax,
Zach

 

[zach_dunn]

The huge difference is that Jesus is God, and He did not blaspheme. He has authority, because He is God. He is in perfect union and communion with the Father, who begot Him. However, Jesus is uncreated, as He is begotten. Only those who have the Holy Spirit will be able to say “Jesus is Lord.”

You are not God, and are blaspheming. Please stop! It’s for your own sake.

Jesus is my Lord and my God. He is God over all creation.

Instead of trying to keep him quiet shouldn’t we spend our time trying to convince him of the truth? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I know that Jesus will show him the truth in time. But I think we could help out by letting him present his doubt and we can explain the truth to him, don’t you think?

Pax,
Zach

 

[MDK]

Instead of trying to keep him quiet shouldn’t we spend our time trying to convince him of the truth? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I know that Jesus will show him the truth in time. But I think we could help out by letting him present his doubt and we can explain the truth to him, don’t you think?

Pax,
Zach

Zach,
If you look back, you’ll see that I’ve already shown him truth, as have others. So, the availability of truth is not really the problem here, is it? It is also a poor reading to say I’m trying to keep him quiet, as that’s not the effort at all. I’m asking him to stop blaspheming. I want him to talk, but not in blasphemy. Is it good to blaspheme, such that you seek to encourage that? Of course not. What I’m trying to do is to show how damaging his beliefs are, and to get him to actually learn what was taught. How good is it working when someone doesn’t stop to learn what is already taught, but continues stubbornly down a road of ruin for themselves?

 

[Martin_R]

He was indeed the Son of God, which means that God is His father:

Agreed.

John 5:18 “18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.”

You see, Jesus being the Son of God implies equality, the Jews knew that. There’s also John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

They though it was blasphemy to claim equality with God, not knowing He was God’s Son and had been given His authority by God.
They were going by human thinking.
Col 2:8 Don’t let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world, [fn] and not from Christ. NLT

and Christ did explain who He was. Plenty of times, He said He was the Son of God.

I ask you to have faith in Christ and believe Him when He says He is God.

I have faith in Christ but He didn’t say He was God.

P.S. There are many other instances where Jesus claims to be God.

I’ll get to those when I get time. I’m trying to do a bit each day.

P.P.S. A mere human’s death could not have taken away the sin of the world.

Agreed. That’s why God sent His Son - no ordinary human being would do.
The key word being God “sent” not “God went” as claimed by scottywolf777 in the other thread where he said “God to came down and became one of us so as to see what being human was all about and to finally breach the gap caused by sin.”
I agree with the last six words of that but not the rest.
He sent Jesus ***on His behalf ***as requested by the terrified people:

Deut 18:
16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai. You begged that you might never again have to listen to the voice of the LORD your God or see this blazing fire for fear you would die.
17 "Then the LORD said to me, `Fine, I will do as they have requested.
18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will tell that prophet what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command him.
19 I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf. NLT

 

[Martin_R]

He has authority, because He is God.

No, He has authority because He was given it.

Hebrews 2:8 You gave him authority over all things… NLT

Why would God give Him something if He was already God?

also:

John 14:28 …now I can go to the Father, who is greater than I am. NLT

and

1Cr 15:27 For the Scriptures say, “God has given him authority over all things.” (Of course, when it says “authority over all things,” it does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) NLT

 

[MDK]

No, He has authority because He was given it.

Hebrews 2:8 You gave him authority over all things… NLT

Why would God give Him something if He was already God?

also:

John 14:28 …now I can go to the Father, who is greater than I am. NLT

and

1Cr 15:27 For the Scriptures say, “God has given him authority over all things.” (Of course, when it says “authority over all things,” it does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) NLT

Once again, the ignorant will try to separate things with either/or. The truth is that Jesus is God, and all these things were given to Him by the Father. It’s not either/or. So, congrats on being able to read the English words in the Book given to the world through the Catholic Church… however, you really don’t get what they actually teach, do you? Also, why do you act as though there is only one nature in Christ Jesus?

Jesus is begotten by the Father, outside of time. Jesus, Who is God is eternal. Nothing was created without the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. His relationship with the Father existed before He became man for our sake. Christ with two natures and two wills can speak either from His Divine Nature or His human nature, can He not? Why do you act as though there is only one nature in Christ?

Another either/or with the ignorant is either God or the Church.
The wise, In truth will say it is God and His Church.

The ignorant will say either God or the priest.
The wise will say God through His priests.

The ignorant will say either Mary or Jesus.
The wise will say Mary with her Divine Son.

The ignorant will say the Bible or the church.
The wise will say God’s Church with the Bible it authored.

We could go on, but this is enough to illustrate the point (not that I think the ignorant will understand and go with this truth).

 

[rpp]

MartinR, you have yet to respond to the post which quotes the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Please do so as that does explicitly describe Jesus as God.

Also, you cannot claim to be a Protestant if you deny Christ’s divinity. To be a Christian of any sort, you must accept that. That is why JW, among others, are not considered Christians.

 

[mchale]

Lets not forget in John 14 where Jesus says that “all who have seen me have seen the Father” and later in the same chapter, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me…”.

Both of these statements suggest a stronger relationship between Jesus and the Father than that Jesus was simply the Son of God… it also suggests equality with the Father (who we all agree with God). If Jesus is equal to God, then he must be God unless we are willing to reject the notion that there is only one God.

–
Bill

 

[MDK]

MartinR, you have yet to respond to the post which quotes the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Please do so as that does explicitly describe Jesus as God.

Also, you cannot claim to be a Protestant if you deny Christ’s divinity. To be a Christian of any sort, you must accept that. That is why JW, among others, are not considered Christians.

Yes, it’s revealing that those who say they believe in the Bible alone, really only want their interpretation (of the Bible) alone. Some take their personal interpretations so far away from truth, that they can no longer be considered even a generic Christian.

Since God inspired all Godly Tradition including Scripture, and the Scripture includes Thomas identifying Jesus as God when he says to Jesus “my Lord and my God,” then one does not have the Holy Spirit who cannot also say to Jesus “my Lord and my God.”

I will say it here. Jesus is my Lord and my God. I thank Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, for all He has given and done for me and all mankind. To redeem fallen man, God told us that if He wanted it done right, He had to do it Himself.

 

[John7]

The Son of God - like He said.
But not God the Son - a phrase that is not in the Bible.

Martin should read his Bible !

John 1:18

18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us. NLT

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. NAB

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NASB95

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. ESV

18 No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father’s side, has revealed him. ISV

18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. NIV

18 Deum nemo vidit umquam; unigenitus Deus, qui est in sinum Patris, ipse enarravit. Nova Vulgata

Check UBS4/NA27 Greek…its ‘monogenous Theos’ NOT ‘monogenous Uios’.

From this one verse we see that Jesus is: himself **is God **/ The only Son, **God **/ The **only begotten God **/ the only **God **/ the unique **God **/ unigenitus **Deus **/ monogenous Theos

After reading this verse -even in the translation you chose, NLT- you can’t seriously think that Jesus isn’t God can you?

 

[Martin_R]

Jesus said he raised himself up. Now, if he is not God as you propose, then what do we say about that?
If he is not God, then there really isn’t anything special about his being here. Any good teacher could have done what he did then. And, there would be no need for a miracle birth.

Jesus didn’t say He raised Himself up. God raised Him up.
Mat 27:43 tells us:
He trusted God-let God show his approval by delivering him! For he said, `I am the Son of God.’ "NLT

And that’s what did happen.
How could He trust God if He was God? He had His own will:

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.KJV

and Acts 2:32 (and other verses) show God raised Him:

"This prophecy was speaking of Jesus, whom God raised from the dead, and we all are witnesses of this. NLT

But God cannot tolerate sin and is, therefore, separated from sinful man.
That’s why any good teacher could not have done what He did.
He was sinless.

But if Jesus is God, as you say, (and this is where it starts to go wrong) we have:

God sent God to mediate between God and man. God died on the cross as a sacrifice to God (ignoring the fact that there is only one God) and God, who was still alive because God can’t die, raised the other God from the dead.

And yes, I do intend to reply to the other comments, it’s just that these verses came up in today’s reading. Coincedence again?

 

[rpp]

And still no response to the first chapter of John. Looks like someone is dodging something.

 

[MDK]

And still no response to the first chapter of John. Looks like someone is dodging something.

Yes, and what they’re dodging is the truth.

 

[MDK]

Jesus didn’t say He raised Himself up. God raised Him up.
Mat 27:43 tells us:
He trusted God-let God show his approval by delivering him! For he said, `I am the Son of God.’ "NLT

And that’s what did happen.
How could He trust God if He was God? He had His own will:

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.KJV

and Acts 2:32 (and other verses) show God raised Him:

"This prophecy was speaking of Jesus, whom God raised from the dead, and we all are witnesses of this. NLT

But God cannot tolerate sin and is, therefore, separated from sinful man.
That’s why any good teacher could not have done what He did.
He was sinless.

But if Jesus is God, as you say, (and this is where it starts to go wrong) we have:

God sent God to mediate between God and man. God died on the cross as a sacrifice to God (ignoring the fact that there is only one God) and God, who was still alive because God can’t die, raised the other God from the dead.

And yes, I do intend to reply to the other comments, it’s just that these verses came up in today’s reading. Coincedence again?

What’s no coincidence is that each time you’re shown the truth, you deny it in favor of your own preferences. This is definitely a pattern, and one that needs to be corrected.

The Father is God. The Son, Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Three Divine Persons in One God. None of these three is created, all are eternal as God.

Jesus gave up His glory to become man, but not His Divinity. Jesus was the only Person ever with two natures, and therefore two wills… Divine and human in the same Person.

When Jesus (who is the Eternal Word made flesh) appeals to the Father, Jesus is appealing to God.

When Jesus (the God-man) prays to the Father, He is praying to God.

When Jesus (the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) talks about His Father, He is talking about God in the First Person of the Holy Trinity.

In all these, Jesus who gave up His glory to become man, is still the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and still may appeal to, talk to (in prayer), or talk about the First Person of the Holy Trinity or the Third Person of the Holy Trinity who are also God.

There is no contradition in the Scriptures and Godly Oral Tradition. It’s very clear that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and the One Who is the only Begotten Son of the Father, the Eternal Word of God.

 

[zach_dunn]

Jesus didn’t say He raised Himself up. God raised Him up.
Mat 27:43 tells us:
He trusted God-let God show his approval by delivering him! For he said, `I am the Son of God.’ "NLT

Do you have any idea what it means when Jesus calls Himself “the Son of God”? The Jews did, John 5:18 explains it.

“18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.”

Jesus, being a Jew, knew what He was claiming when He said He was the Son of God and that God was His Father. Jesus knew that He was calling Himself God. Why would He call Himself God? Simple. He IS God. Jesus was not one to make idle claims, why would claims about who He is be any different than His doctrines?

And that’s what did happen.
How could He trust God if He was God? He had His own will:

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.KJV

You obviously don’t understand the Incarnation and Hypostatic Union. This is how the Catholic Church defines who Jesus is: He is one Person with two natures. His Person is the second Divine Person of the Trinity and He has a Divine nature and a human nature. Because He has two natures, He has two wills. His Divine will and his human will. His human will did not want to suffer, but He knew He must listen to His Divine will which IS God’s will. The evidence for Jesus having the same Divine nature as God is in John 10:30.

“30 I and the Father are one.”

His human will trusts in His own Divine will which is God’s will.

and Acts 2:32 (and other verses) show God raised Him:

"This prophecy was speaking of Jesus, whom God raised from the dead, and we all are witnesses of this. NLT

Jesus IS God, so Jesus DID raise Himself up.

But God cannot tolerate sin and is, therefore, separated from sinful man.
That’s why any good teacher could not have done what He did.
He was sinless.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

But if Jesus is God, as you say, (and this is where it starts to go wrong) we have:

God sent God to mediate between God and man. God died on the cross as a sacrifice to God (ignoring the fact that there is only one God) and God, who was still alive because God can’t die, raised the other God from the dead.

If you seperate it out into the Persons of the Trinity, it makes more sense.

God the Father (First Person of the Trinity) sent God the Son (Second Person of the Trinity) to mediate between God and man. God the Son died on the cross as a sacrifice to God the Father. God the Father raised God the Son from the dead. It’s really not as silly as you try to make it out to be.

Zach

YAY, my 200th post!!

 

[Martin_R]

Yes I can understand your man made ideas, it’s just that they don’t come from the Bible - God’s Word.

The following words and phrases are just not there:

1.Triune
2.Trinity
3.God the Son
4.God humbled Himself (and became a man).
5.Fully God and fully man.