Is Jesus God?

[Martin_R]

I’ve been trying to think where it says Jesus had two natures.
Can’t think of anywhere, maybe you can?
He was King, teacher, prophet, saviour, Son of God, etc. which is more than two.
Perhaps you mean he had two wills and obeyed one i.e. God’s.
But all men are like that - sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes not.
Jesus always did God’s, so in that respect, you could say He only had one and we have two.

 

[Martin_R]

I found the following on the net which would explain it but I don’t know if it is accurate and true of course as it’s not from the Bible:

In the 4th.Century AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. He convoked the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. This Council determined that God was a Trinity. All who did not believe this were called heretics. Thus, there was created a sharp division between those who held to apostolic beliefs, and those of the militant camp of Constantine. This division has lasted right through to the present day. Through Constantine, Imperial Rome was transformed to Ecclesiastical Rome (the Catholic Church). In the eleventh century AD, the Catholic Church broke into two parts: Roman Catholic; and Eastern Orthodox. These two sections are represented by the two iron legs of Daniel’s image. The feet are a mixture of iron and clay. Clay is symbolic of humanity, and here represents nations. Different toes, represent different nations. But, these nations are partly iron. That means, this collection of nations is influenced by ecclesiastical Rome. In the end times, this group of nations will form Catholic Europe. It will be hostile towards Jesus and try to destroy Him. But, Jesus (the stone) will destroy them at the battle of Armageddon. In doing so, all nations will become subject to the Lord, who will grow together with His saints, to fill the whole earth. Then, the peaceful Kingdom period will begin.

Revelation 12 and 13
Without going into much detail, these two chapters deal with the rise of the apostate church that would oppose the Truth and its believers. The apostate church was able to operate with the blessing of the Emperor Constantine (12:5) who embraced Christianity for his own political ends. Thus, Imperial Rome became the state sponsor of the so-called Christian church. He endorsed the Council of Nicaea’s declaration of the doctrine of the Trinity (AD 325), and commanded that it must be believed by all Christians. Those who did not were deemed heretics and subject to abuse. This abuse continued for many centuries resulting in horrible conditions and death for true believers. The ;papacy is characterised by the beast of 13:2. This is the same beast of Dan 7:4-7. The Lord Jesus will finally destroy this false system of worship when He returns (14:8;18:2,21).

 

[Martin_R]

What’s no coincidence is that each time you’re shown the truth, you deny it in favor of your own preferences. This is definitely a pattern, and one that needs to be corrected.

The Father is God. The Son, Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Three Divine Persons in One God. None of these three is created, all are eternal as God.

Jesus gave up His glory to become man, but not His Divinity. Jesus was the only Person ever with two natures, and therefore two wills… Divine and human in the same Person.

When Jesus (who is the Eternal Word made flesh) appeals to the Father, Jesus is appealing to God.

When Jesus (the God-man) prays to the Father, He is praying to God.

When Jesus (the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) talks about His Father, He is talking about God in the First Person of the Holy Trinity.

In all these, Jesus who gave up His glory to become man, is still the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and still may appeal to, talk to (in prayer), or talk about the First Person of the Holy Trinity or the Third Person of the Holy Trinity who are also God.

There is no contradition in the Scriptures and Godly Oral Tradition. It’s very clear that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and the One Who is the only Begotten Son of the Father, the Eternal Word of God.

None of that is from the Bible. It’s all man made ideas.

 

[Ghosty]

Assyrian Church of the East supreme leader His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV does not believe Jesus is God The Word, and he himself confessed this to Pope John Paul II at Vatican City: “I believe the Second Qnuma of the Holy Trinity, the eternal Word cannot be crucified or incarnated, as He is immortal. The immortal cannot be subject to death as he cannot become man. I believe there are two Qnume in Messiah, the Word and Jesus. Each Qnume has his own Kyana. On Good Friday, the uncreated Word did not die but the created Jesus died”.

This heresy is called Nestorianism and Assyrians such as Mar Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrrhus held that Messiah is one “person” in two “natures”, who are the immortal Word and the mortal Jesus. By “person”, they really mean “mask”, and by “natures” they really mean “person”.

The Vatican however recognises Assyrian sacraments as valid and refers these Nestorians as “seperated brethren”.

Mar Dinka IV was saying that the Divine Nature of the Son can not be crucified or die, and he is correct. The Assyrian’s do believe that Jesus Christ was indeed God, and have said so many times. They simply emphasize the language of two distinct natures in their theology, and there is nothing heretical in doing so.

Peace and God bless!

 

[MDK]

None of that is from the Bible. It’s all man made ideas.

This is how little you know God. None of this is in your understanding of God’s word. However, it never conflicts with Scriptures, but is true. If what I have spoken is truth, then these are originally from God. Simply because you don’t understand them, not only doesn’t mean they’re false, given what we’ve seen from you… it is another affirmation that they’re true… and they are.

 

[Newbie2]

Once again, the ignorant will try to separate things with either/or. The truth is that Jesus is God, and all these things were given to Him by the Father. It’s not either/or. So, congrats on being able to read the English words in the Book given to the world through the Catholic Church… however, you really don’t get what they actually teach, do you? Also, why do you act as though there is only one nature in Christ Jesus?

Jesus is begotten by the Father, outside of time. Jesus, Who is God is eternal. Nothing was created without the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. His relationship with the Father existed before He became man for our sake. Christ with two natures and two wills can speak either from His Divine Nature or His human nature, can He not? Why do you act as though there is only one nature in Christ?

Another either/or with the ignorant is either God or the Church.
The wise, In truth will say it is God and His Church.

The ignorant will say either God or the priest.
The wise will say God through His priests.

The ignorant will say either Mary or Jesus.
The wise will say Mary with her Divine Son.

The ignorant will say the Bible or the church.
The wise will say God’s Church with the Bible it authored.

We could go on, but this is enough to illustrate the point (not that I think the ignorant will understand and go with this truth).

Ignorant in the sense of not knowing the truth, not being stupid or obstinate.

Yes I can understand your man made ideas, it’s just that they don’t come from the Bible - God’s Word.

The following words and phrases are just not there:

1.Triune
2.Trinity
3.God the Son
4.God humbled Himself (and became a man).
5.Fully God and fully man.

OK, riddle me this, Batman, why does anyone worship Jesus if he’s not God? Everyone’s got it wrong, Protestants and Catholics alike, except you? Are you a Gnostic? You cannot seriously claim to be a protestant and not believe in the divinity of Christ.

I’ve been trying to think where it says Jesus had two natures.
Can’t think of anywhere, maybe you can?
He was King, teacher, prophet, saviour, Son of God, etc. which is more than two.
Perhaps you mean he had two wills and obeyed one i.e. God’s.
But all men are like that - sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes not.
Jesus always did God’s, so in that respect, you could say He only had one and we have two.

What we have here…is a failure to communicate. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of “nature”, instead, methinks, confusing it with “role” as in Jesus took on the role of King, the role of teacher, of prohphet, etc.

None of that is from the Bible. It’s all man made ideas.

So all of Christianity is mistaken in worshiping Christ as God? Please tell me that’s not what you’re saying, Martin. As St. Paul says IN THE BIBLE, we worship Christ crucified. If he’s not God, St. Paul is advocating blasphemy IN THE BIBLE.

But it’s all in there despite your claim that it’s not.

 

[Martin_R]

No, I’m not avoiding any of your comments.

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

The Greek word used here for “one” is “heis”. Unity - in purpose.
The same word is used here:
Eph 5:31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.”
A husband and wife join together as one, nobody claims they are one person.

The same word is used again here:

1Cr 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body {with her?} For He says, “the two shall become one flesh.”

and again here:

John 17:21-23 KJV
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Obviously it’s not saying the world should become part of the so called Trinity.

and again here:
Gal 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians–you are one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ghosty]

Martin R: Jesus was directly called God in the John 1, and he directly called Himself God later in the same Gospel, Chapter 8:

57] The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58] Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59] So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

He called Himself “I Am”, which is the name of God. If He was not calling Himself God, He would have said “before Abraham was, I was”. They picked up stones to kill Him because He had just committed blasphemy in their eyes, calling Himself God. They would not have stoned Him had He simply said He existed before Abraham, but would have merely considered Him a crazy person.

Peace and God bless!

 

[MDK]

Yes I can understand your man made ideas, it’s just that they don’t come from the Bible - God’s Word.

The following words and phrases are just not there:

1.Triune
2.Trinity
3.God the Son
4.God humbled Himself (and became a man).
5.Fully God and fully man.

The Bible doesn’t teach it’s own truths. That’s the job of God’s one Church, and they have taught these things without error. You take the Scriptures and come away with many errors on your own. Why is that? So, apparently it’s your job to take Scriptures, and create false “teachings” from God’s written word.

Would it surprise you to learn that Jesus said and did some “unbiblical things”. However, none of them are anti-Biblical.

It is ignorant to assume all of God’s revealed truths are in the Bible. My Church authored the NT and wrote the table of contents of the Bible. My Church knows what is in it and what is not. Even the Scriptures which were written by inspired Catholic men will tell you that not everything Christ did and said was written down.

 

[MDK]

I’ve been trying to think where it says Jesus had two natures.
Can’t think of anywhere, maybe you can?
He was King, teacher, prophet, saviour, Son of God, etc. which is more than two.
Perhaps you mean he had two wills and obeyed one i.e. God’s.
But all men are like that - sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes not.
Jesus always did God’s, so in that respect, you could say He only had one and we have two.

This is why God created His Church as pillar and foundation of the truth, not the Bible.

Jesus is the “I am” which is God.
Jesus became man.
It is clear throughout Scriptures that He did not give up His Divinity.
It is clear throughout Scriptures that Jesus is authentically a man as well.
Jesus is the God-man.
These are two natures.
When you have two natures, you have two wills.

 

[Newbie2]

So, Martin…how do you figure you’re a Protestant while denying the divinity of Christ?

 

[MDK]

Ignorant in the sense of not knowing the truth, not being stupid or obstinate.

Ignorant means just that, lacking knowledge of the truth. If something else were being identified and discussed, a different word would have been used.

 

[Martin_R]

OK, riddle me this, Batman, why does anyone worship Jesus if he’s not God?

God said He should be worshipped:
Hebrews 1
6 And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” NLT

Notice it says “worship him” not “worship me”.

 

[Newbie2]

Ignorant means just that, lacking knowledge of the truth. If something else were being identified and discussed, a different word would have been used.

That’s what I figgered. Some people might mistakenly take “ignorant” as an insult, which in this case it is not.

 

[MDK]

That’s what I figgered. Some people might mistakenly take “ignorant” as an insult, which in this case it is not.

Mistakenly is the key word, and it would obviously be their mistake to do so. There is no sin in being ignorant. We all have been ignorant of things at one time. I was not born with all the truths taught in the Catholic Church. I was ignorant of them. Now, I have pretty well resolved that in a big way. Still have a lot to learn, and we are all terribly ignorant compared to God. This is not a derision, but just the way it is. There is no acceptable reason to me, though to be largely ignorant of the wonderful truths that God has revealed for us about Himself. It is certainly no virtue to be ignorant, then. I wouldn’t consider it a grace from God, would you?

 

[davidv]

I’ve been trying to think where it says Jesus had two natures.
Can’t think of anywhere, maybe you can?
He was King, teacher, prophet, saviour, Son of God, etc. which is more than two.
Perhaps you mean he had two wills and obeyed one i.e. God’s.
But all men are like that - sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes not.
Jesus always did God’s, so in that respect, you could say He only had one and we have two.

Have you considered John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

The Word is divine in nature
Flesh is human in nature

Thus two natures in one person - Jesus.

 

[MDK]

I found the following on the net which would explain it but I don’t know if it is accurate and true of course as it’s not from the Bible:

In the 4th.Century AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. He convoked the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. This Council determined that God was a Trinity. All who did not believe this were called heretics. Thus, there was created a sharp division between those who held to apostolic beliefs, and those of the militant camp of Constantine. This division has lasted right through to the present day. Through Constantine, Imperial Rome was transformed to Ecclesiastical Rome (the Catholic Church). In the eleventh century AD, the Catholic Church broke into two parts: Roman Catholic; and Eastern Orthodox. These two sections are represented by the two iron legs of Daniel’s image. The feet are a mixture of iron and clay. Clay is symbolic of humanity, and here represents nations. Different toes, represent different nations. But, these nations are partly iron. That means, this collection of nations is influenced by ecclesiastical Rome. In the end times, this group of nations will form Catholic Europe. It will be hostile towards Jesus and try to destroy Him. But, Jesus (the stone) will destroy them at the battle of Armageddon. In doing so, all nations will become subject to the Lord, who will grow together with His saints, to fill the whole earth. Then, the peaceful Kingdom period will begin.

Revelation 12 and 13
Without going into much detail, these two chapters deal with the rise of the apostate church that would oppose the Truth and its believers. The apostate church was able to operate with the blessing of the Emperor Constantine (12:5) who embraced Christianity for his own political ends. Thus, Imperial Rome became the state sponsor of the so-called Christian church. He endorsed the Council of Nicaea’s declaration of the doctrine of the Trinity (AD 325), and commanded that it must be believed by all Christians. Those who did not were deemed heretics and subject to abuse. This abuse continued for many centuries resulting in horrible conditions and death for true believers. The ;papacy is characterised by the beast of 13:2. This is the same beast of Dan 7:4-7. The Lord Jesus will finally destroy this false system of worship when He returns (14:8;18:2,21).

Some things not in the Bible are accurate as well, but not this. Did Satan sign that himself or have a ghost writer?

 

[Martin_R]

So, Martin…how do you figure you’re a Protestant while denying the divinity of Christ?

2 reasons:

1. When joining this forum, they were only 2 choices if I remember correctly (drop down box).
2. Chambers 21st Century Dictionary defines it as:

“Protestant or protestant noun 1 a member of any of the Christian churches which embraced the principles of the Reformation and, rejecting the authority of the pope, separated from the Roman Catholic Church. 2 a member of any body descended from these. adj relating or belonging to Protestants. Protestantism noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 16c: originally applied to those princes and others who in 1529 protested against an edict denouncing the Reformation.”

I agree with the “rejecting the authority of the pope” bit.
I don’t know what the Reformation bit is all about. I’m guessing that’s all the bits the Catholics have made up e.g. Hail Mary, buying your way into heaven, calling men Holy Father, etc. etc.

 

[MDK]

2 reasons:

1. When joining this forum, they were only 2 choices if I remember correctly (drop down box).
2. Chambers 21st Century Dictionary defines it as:

“Protestant or protestant noun 1 a member of any of the Christian churches which embraced the principles of the Reformation and, rejecting the authority of the pope, separated from the Roman Catholic Church. 2 a member of any body descended from these. adj relating or belonging to Protestants. Protestantism noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 16c: originally applied to those princes and others who in 1529 protested against an edict denouncing the Reformation.”

Well, in that case watch out… you could be a serial theif, because they breathe air just like you do.

I agree with the “rejecting the authority of the pope” bit.
I don’t know what the Reformation bit is all about. I’m guessing that’s all the bits the Catholics have made up e.g. Hail Mary, buying your way into heaven, calling men Holy Father, etc. etc.

Have you checked to see what the Catholic Church actually teaches, or whether these are distortions from the ignorant made to fool other ignorant and vulnerable people? Or, do you just repeat falsehoods because opposing the Catholic Church woud “always be a good thing to do?”

What did the Archangel Gabriel say at the Annunciation as he was speaking to Mary?
“Hail full of grace.”

Where does the Catholic Church teach or have ever taught that you can buy your way into Heaven? If this is not an official Catholic teaching, then you owe God an apology for lying about His Church.

There is nothing wrong with calling the pope holy father. It is because of the pope’s participation with God, like we all do in different ways, that we can call him this. The ignorant think it takes away from God. God knows it’s because of Him and it glorifies Him as we trust our Heavenly Father to protect the earthly Prime Minister to the King.

 

[MDK]

…When joining this forum, they were only 2 choices if I remember correctly (drop down box)…

When you register as a new user, there is a blank box (not a drop down list), in which you can write anything you desire. The examples given above the blank box are “Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.” Do you see the etcetera? You can also change this in your user account at any time. Please feel free to do so, to reflect where you are. Where you currently are is unfortunately not a Christian of any sort. I hope you become a Christian for your own sake.