Is Jesus God?

[Martin_R]

I expect when Jesus criticized some of the 7 churches, they were surprised, each thinking they were correct.
What are you talking about?

Revelation 2

Jesus was telling the churches what He thought of them and in some cases it was not good.

My point being, all churches *think *they are right, how are we to tell?

My answer is to check it against the Bible.

 

[placido]

Matthew 10
1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

may god bless you and your whole entire family

i am here to fellowship i do dot mean to disrespect you or your view. i would like to be your friend.

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
Buddha

Ms Alternative, did you post this to show me that the Bible speaks of only 12 apostles (and that Paul is not includede)? So, you believe what the Bibles says in the above verses, but you don’t believe what the Bibles in the verses below:
1 Corinthians 1:1;
2 Corinthians 1:1
Galatins 1:1

placido

 

[placido]

Yes but which church? Surely the one to pick is one that goes by God’s word - The Bible.

I’m just saying maybe “none of them have got it right”. I started to read a booklet one of them gave me but it didn’t agree with the Bible so I didn’t bother reading the rest. Which is another example of the point I’m making. A church that doesn’t go by the Bible can’t be any good, can it?

Creating copycats has always been the method the evil one used to confuse God’s people. During the pos-apostolic era there circulated many false books claiming to be written by apostles. The aim was to confuse and make the identification of inspired books difficult.
Same with churches. Jesus founded One Church. The mushrooming of churches is a way of confusing and making the identification of Jesus’ True Church difficult.

placido

 

[Sunflower15]

Yes but which church? Surely the one to pick is one that goes by God’s word - The Bible.

I’m just saying maybe “none of them have got it right”. I started to read a booklet one of them gave me but it didn’t agree with the Bible so I didn’t bother reading the rest. Which is another example of the point I’m making. A church that doesn’t go by the Bible can’t be any good, can it?

Well, I recently read that there are about 3800 Protestant denominations…all of which ‘go by God’s word’. Then, add all the Orthodox Christians, and the 23 Catholic churches [1 Western and 22 Eastern], all of which ‘go by God’s word’.

The problem is this…and I’ll use a secular philosophical example to avoid offending anyone! Plato told that Socrates had seen a poor, uneducated, slave boy at the shore of the beach carrying buckets of water from the sea into a hole he had dug himself in the sand. The boy worked very hard at this for hours. Socrates approached the boy to inquire what exactly was he trying to achieve. The boy explained that it was his intent to empty ALL of the contents of the ocean into the hole he had dug himself. Socrates told him that it was impossible to do so! The boy’s reply was that it was no different from what he, and all other ‘learned free-men’, attempted to do. To ‘pour’ God’s thoughts & knowledge entirely into their limited human minds.

I’m reading the back & forth of ‘this’ biblical passage vs. ‘that’ other passage…which people have been doing for a couple of milleniums now…no way any of us in this forum will reach a conclusion that satisfies everyone! However, when the Word became flesh, His LIFE - the Word in action - should be considered a definitely good roadmap, blueprint, checklist [whatever image works for you! ].

And, just in case, we were SO ‘smart’ that even after careful reading and debating, we STILL could not ‘Get IT’… His name and His reply for when He was asked in court for his identity, His answer regarding Himself was…‘I AM’… Hm, m…the ‘Word’ in the ‘Action’ of simply ‘Being’…

Let’s be better Christians by how we follow His teachings, and His example of Love…rather than empty arguing…

How many ‘GOOD’ Christians are there in 3800+ Christian denominations [also Catholics + Orthodox]??? Good question???

Pax Christi.

 

[Sunflower15]

Yes but which church? Surely the one to pick is one that goes by God’s word - The Bible.
God’s Word is more than the Bible…it is also in Creation/Nature, in natural law withing Man/Woman, in relationships such as parent/child and husband/wife…that is why the Bible alludes to all of these to make important teachings…everything speaks of God’s Word…especially the Incarnate Himself…read his actions, his charity, his teachings… and I’m not even going into the Tradition of those who kept the writings so that the Bible could be compiled!

Why do you focus on the theology of a church so much when trying to get to know Jesus? He LIVES! Go to HIM…then, He will guide you to where to worship in community.

I’m just saying maybe “none of them have got it right”. I started to read a booklet one of them gave me but it didn’t agree with the Bible so I didn’t bother reading the rest. Which is another example of the point I’m making. A church that doesn’t go by the Bible can’t be any good, can it?

Who cares whether anyone else has ‘got it right’? What if you were to die soon [God forbid!] would it had mattered what ‘churches’ believed/taught? Really? What about YOUR personal Eternal Life? This thing about ‘booklets’ and ‘tracts’ I will never be able to understand! It must be a cultural thing…as if God could distill all of His Truth in a convenient marketing brochure that would answer Every question beyond all doubt! The entire Bible cannot do that!!! Have you not noticed???

Now, there is the Holy Spirit, Who together with the Father [Creator, Who put important information intrinsically into the nature of all creatures], and the Son [Word, Who put all needed info into action by Being & Living like one of us to show authority by example]…the Holy Spirit, Who animates and gives Life ‘the Lord, the Giver of Life’ breathed into clay/dust creatures] also guides us into Becoming the Word in action in Living…

What sort of Protestant are you, if not a Mormon nor JW? * I thought ALL Christians believed in the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, and even the Athanasian Creed, no??? I am just trying to discover where the doubt comes from, that’s all!

Pax Christi
*

 

[zach_dunn]

Oops
Sorry, yes, I got that one wrong.
I think I was in a hurry to go out and thought I’d better post something or I’ll get moaned at.
Was going to look it up to make sure I’d got that right, then I saw the time and rushed out.
Lesson learnt… I hope!

I kinda felt bad about that post…I wanted to use the tsktsk smiley face but it looked mad! I’m sorry, I wasn’t mad or anything, I was just pointing that out!

Zach

 

[zach_dunn]

Yes but which church? Surely the one to pick is one that goes by God’s word - The Bible.

Martin, the Bible itself paints a different picture of the “Word of God”

1 Peter 1:25
“25 but the word of the Lord abides for ever.” That word is the good news which was preached to you."

As you can see, the word of the Lord (aka, Word of God) is the preaching of the Apostles. The preaching of the Apostles is what Catholics call Sacred Tradition. Not what Jesus condemned in various parts of the Gospels, but the Traditions that were sanctioned by the Apostles themselves. In various passages such as 2 Thess 2:15; 1 Cor 11:2; and 2 Tim 2:2. So, by your definition of “the one to pick,” the one to pick would have to be one that went by the Bible (which is some Tradition that had been written down) and Tradition (or the preaching of the Apostles). The only Church around that fits the requirements is the Catholic Church. Although, I think that the Orthodox churches believe they go by Tradition as well but I’m not sure of that. At the very least we’ve narrowed it down to two!

One more thing to note about what you said. How do you determine whether or not a certain church “goes by God’s word?” How do you know that what you see in the Bible is the correct way of interpreting it? There has to be some authority (which, by necessity, cannot be wrong) to say whether or not a certain interpretation is right or wrong. What is your authority? Usually Protestants say the Holy Spirit, this can easily be proven false by looking at the number of Protestant denominations there are today. Over 30,000 and growing. Each one claiming to go by God’s word, and each one claiming that the Holy Spirit is guiding them, showing them the correct interpretation of the Scriptures. This cannot possibly be true because denominations cannot agree on even the most important things, such as Christ’s divinity.

I think it’s obvious that the Holy Spirit does not guide everyone to the right interpretation, just look at the above example. But, Jesus did send the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is leading someone “into all truth” [Jn 16:13]. But who? The Apostles, that’s who. On Pentecost, Jesus fulfilled His promise to the Apostles and sent them the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth. But we shouldn’t assume that the truth died with the Apostles, no, the Holy Spirit (and Jesus for that matter) would be with us always, continually leading the Apostles into all truth. And that begs the question, how can the Apostles be lead into all truth if they are dead? That’s an easy one, the Apostles had successors. Successors that were taught all the truths the Apostles had and they kept that truth with them, with the help of the Holy Spirit all the way until today.

We know even today many successors to the Apostles, all Bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox churches can trace their lineage back to the Apostles. We even know every single successor of Peter. The truth has not been lost, or been left to individuals to figure out for themselves. Christ gave all truth to the Church (the Catholic Church, that is), and the Church is where it has stayed.

I’m just saying maybe “none of them have got it right”. I started to read a booklet one of them gave me but it didn’t agree with the Bible so I didn’t bother reading the rest.

I’ll agree with you in saying that the Mormons do not have it right, but as I’ve said, there is more to the Word of God than the Bible.

Which is another example of the point I’m making. A church that doesn’t go by the Bible can’t be any good, can it?

Here we get into that same conversation, Martin. You can’t go by just the Bible. It was never meant to be the sole source of Christian doctrine. Even though it does contain most, if not all, Christian doctrine in it. Even if it’s only alluded to slightly, you just gotta know how to interpret it correctly.

Hope this helps!

Zach

 

[zach_dunn]

why do we need to kill god’s son to be accepted by him?

Who said we needed to? That’s the way the Father decided to have it done, who am I to question the Father’s judgement?

when Jesus was on the cross did he ask himself or god oh lord oh lord why have you forsaking me?

He asked God the Father.

did he pray to himself?

He prayed to God the Father.

do you read the bible?

Yes, I do, does it seem like I don’t?

Jesus talked of god in heaven?

Yes.

the religion that you follow is Paul’s Mytharism.

Nope, I follow Jesus, through His Church. The way He intended for Christians to follow Him.

Paul was not appointed an apostle the 12 are mentioned and he contradicts Jesus.

Wrong, there were many other Apostles besides the Twelve.

if Jesus was god he could not have died on the cross god is and was and is to come.

god can not be killed!

With God all things are possible. [Matt 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27]

this douse not make sense and if it douse you are polytheistic 3 gods father son holy spirit

This shows that you are very unfamiliar with the theology of the Trinity. We profess three Divine Persons in one God. What makes them all the same (and Divine) is the Divine Nature that they all share.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha

It does agree with my own reason and my own common sense. I have a DVD of a class my old priest used to teach. He explained the Trinity in ways I don’t think I’ll ever be able to explain. The point is that I saw the Trinity explained and explained well. It made perfect sense to me. I’ll try to see if you can buy it online and give you the link because it’s really spectacular.

Matthew 10
1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

You left out a passage:

Acts of the Apostles 1:25-26
“25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.’ 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.”

If you’re going to accept the Gospels as inspired, you’re going to have to accept the Acts of the Apostles as well. From Acts, we can see that there was indeed another Apostle, making thirteen, and counting. placido gave you a few references to Paul being an Apostle. So please, don’t try to tell Christians what’s up in Christianity.

may god bless you and your whole entire family

Thank you, and may God bless your family as well.

i am here to fellowship i do dot mean to disrespect you or your view. i would like to be your friend.

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
Buddha

I’m not angry, are you?

Zach

 

[zach_dunn]

Correct.

Strong’s definition of theos includes this:

1. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God’s representative or viceregent

I’m going to have to go with theos meaning only God. I’m not sure of anyone who speaks or teaches Greek would say that theos means anything but simply God.

So can’t it be translated as follows?

‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God’s representative’

I’m sorry Martin, it just cannot be translated any other way. The Greek is clear, and Christians have known what this verse says from Pentecost until probably the 19th century. Maybe the 18th century, but I doubt it.

Then it ties in with what God said about sending somebody to speak on His behalf (Deut 18 v16-19).

Jesus being God does not contradict this, God the Father sent God the Son to speak on behalf of Him. It’s not contradictory at all.

It also fits with the following verses:

1 John 4
9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.

“Sending” not “going Himself”.

Once again, if you understand that there is a distinction between the Divine Persons of the Trinity, it isn’t difficult. God the Father sent God the Son into the world to die for our sins.

Mat 21:37 "Finally, the owner sent his son, thinking, Surely they will respect my son.' Mat 21:38** "But when the farmers saw his son coming, they said to one another, Here comes the heir to this estate. Come on, let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’

Once again, God the Father sent God the Son.

1 John 4
14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

For the last time, God the Father sent God the Son into the world to save it from its sins. The Son is God because He shares the same nature as God the Father [Jn 10:30; Jn 1:1; Jn 1:14], but He is distinct from God [Jn 1:1]. Therefore, God the Father is able to send God the Son into the world.

Revelation 2

Jesus was telling the churches what He thought of them and in some cases it was not good.

My point being, all churches think they are right, how are we to tell?

My answer is to check it against the Bible.

But when you “check it against the Bible,” you are using your own interpretation of the Bible to determine if they are right. St. Peter warns us against this.

2 Peter 1:20
“20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”

Many Protestants try to say that you just have to look at the face of scripture, but we can’t do this either, because much of scripture is hard to understand. The ignorant turn the scriptures into something they’re not, and send destruction upon themselves.

2 Peter 3:16
“16 speaking of this as [Paul] does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

Do you see what I mean? You can’t just “check it against the Bible” because first of all, it’s incomplete in the ways of Divine Revelation. To completely understand the Bible, you need to make sure anything you get out of it doesn’t contradict Sacred Tradition (see post 106). And second of all because you’ll have your own interpretation, not an authoritative one. Again see post 106 for more details.

I hope you are beginning to see that, first of all, Jesus is God. And second of all, that the “Bible alone” theory doesn’t hold up under inspection.

God bless you, Martin.
Zach

 

[Martin_R]

I kinda felt bad about that post…I wanted to use the tsktsk smiley face but it looked mad! I’m sorry, I wasn’t mad or anything, I was just pointing that out!

Zach

Don’t worry, I didn’t think anything bad about you.
On the contrary, you were right to point out my mistake. Also I wanted it to be known that I do listen and don’t just bulldozer over other peoples’ point of view as I think some people on the other thread seemed to think.

 

[Martin_R]

As for post 106, God’s inspired word, the Bible, has to be the highest authority.
As the Holy Spirit, that is something I have been told by various Protestants, is what you need to have in you to be able to understand the Bible. But I’ve heard different people who claim to have the Spirit in them, hold opposite views on things.

God bless you too.

 

[Martin_R]

What sort of Protestant are you, if not a Mormon nor JW? * I thought ALL Christians believed in the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, and even the Athanasian Creed, no??? I am just trying to discover where the doubt comes from, that’s all! *

I don’t know what sort of Protestant I am.

 

[Martin_R]

From Zach’s post 108:

The Son is God because He shares the same nature as God the Father

It sounds like you’re saying cats only give birth to cats and dogs only give birth to dogs and God’s only produce Gods. So Jesus must be God. It sounds as if “God” is a species. But that can’t be right because we are told there is only one God.

Also being the “Son of God” doesn’t prove He is God because Adam and Solomon were also called sons of God ( Luk 3:38 and 2 Sam 7).

 

[zach_dunn]

As for post 106, God’s inspired word, the Bible, has to be the highest authority.

I would say that the Word of God has to be the highest authority. As I’ve stated in many other posts (106), the Bible alone is not completely God’s Word. God’s Word is Scripture and Tradition. Even though God’s Word is the highest authority, you cannot go to the Scriptures or Tradition for everything. Such as in the following passage:

Matthew 18:15-17
“15 If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

Jesus required that people go to the Church rather than the Scriptures. Why is this? Because not everyone can interpret God’s Word correctly (2 Pet 3:16), they need a guide that is infallible. Such is the case with the Ethiopian eunuch, he needed a guide to understand the Scriptures correctly. Jesus left us this guide in the Church (Matt 16:18; 1 Tim 3:15). So while the Word of God is the highest authority, the Church is what some Catholics call the immediate authority. While Catholics are allowed to go to the Bible to settle things, we must always understand the Bible through the infallible interpretation of it that the Church provides.

As the Holy Spirit, that is something I have been told by various Protestants, is what you need to have in you to be able to understand the Bible. But I’ve heard different people who claim to have the Spirit in them, hold opposite views on things.

God bless you too.

Just one thing I was trying to point out to you, you can’t suppose that you are individually guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible correctly if someone who says the same thing about themselves holds an opposing view to you. It comes down to who has the authority to interpret the Bible without error, such authority was left to Jesus’ Church.

God bless,
Zach

 

[zach_dunn]

It sounds like you’re saying cats only give birth to cats and dogs only give birth to dogs and God’s only produce Gods. So Jesus must be God. It sounds as if “God” is a species. But that can’t be right because we are told there is only one God.

Do cats give birth to anything but cats? Do dogs give birth to anything but dogs? We do not believe Jesus was “produced,” He was “begotten” [Jn 3:16]. The whole “begotten” v. “produced” gets complicated. Begotten means that Jesus (the Word) was never made, He always was (Jn 1:1). Once again, we do not believe in three gods. We believe in one God, three Persons. Each Person is the same one God. The thing that makes God God is His nature. His Divine Nature is what makes Him God, without it He is not God. We claim that Jesus is God because He claims to share the same Divine Nature as God (Jn 10:30; Jn 17:22). I know it’s hard to understand but the thing you have to face is that Jesus claims to be God, which leaves you with a decision. Do you or do you not believe in Jesus? If you do, you must accept that He is God and do some research on the theology of the Trinity, if you decide that you do not (and I’m sure you do)…that’s a whole different subject.

Also being the “Son of God” doesn’t prove He is God because Adam and Solomon were also called sons of God ( Luk 3:38 and 2 Sam 7).

There is a difference between the way they each use them. It was clear to the Jews that Jesus claiming to be the Son of God (making God His Father) that He was claiming to have the same nature and as a consequence, being God Himself. This is made evident by passages such as John 5:18. The Jews accept 2 Samuel as scripture, so they were most definitely aware of the difference between Solomon’s sonship and Jesus’.

God bless,
Zach

 

[ms_alternative]

if the “Trinity” is so simple why can you not explain it?
i understand simple math
god the father + the holly spirit + Jesus = 1 or 3
1+1+1= 1 or 3
if Jesus is god you are polytheistic the belief in more than 1 god.

or you can come up with a confusing parable of an egg and try to make sense of it.
but if Jesus is god he did not die on the cross because god can not die and 1/3 of something dieing is not death

god the father forsaken Jesus on the cross and Jesus did not understand why.
1 god understands its actions and douse not forsake ones self.

 

[zach_dunn]

if the “Trinity” is so simple why can you not explain it?
i understand simple math
god the father + the holly spirit + Jesus = 1 or 3
1+1+1= 1 or 3
if Jesus is god you are polytheistic the belief in more than 1 god.

or you can come up with a confusing parable of an egg and try to make sense of it.
but if Jesus is god he did not die on the cross because god can not die and 1/3 of something dieing is not death

god the father forsaken Jesus on the cross and Jesus did not understand why.
1 god understands its actions and douse not forsake ones self.

Who ever said that the Trinity is “so simple?” It’s not, as I’ve stated in other posts. In one post I mentioned that the Trinity is an absolute mystery something that we will never be able to completely understand, ever. We may not be able to completely understand it, but we can understand some things about it.

For example, we can understand that the Trinity IS NOT 3 gods, as has been previously stated several times. There are three PERSONS in the Trinity. A person is different than a god. A person distinguishes us from another being, a nature, on the other hand, makes a being what it is. You and I have two different persons, but we have the same nature. The person is what distinguishes us, but the human nature makes us both human. That’s how it is in the Trinity, there are three Persons (that means they are distinguished) that share one Divine Nature (that is what makes them God). And from the Bible we can conclude that there is only one God [Deut 6:4], that is why we call them Persons, not gods.

I cannot make it any clearer than this Martin and ms alternative, but I would appreciate it if you would stop saying that we claim three gods, we don’t, as I just stated there is a philisophical and theological difference between a person and a god. A person is one part of a being and a god is a Divine Person with a Divine Nature.

Zach

P.S. I’m not sure if this philosophy/theology is exactly on the mark (I’m sure it’s close though!), so if someone more knowledgable in Catholic philosophy/theology wishes to correct me, please do so.

 

[Sunflower15]

How many Persons in ONE God? You don’t think ONE God can have three Persons?
Why? Maybe it is your definition of God…the Christian one is a Triune God…or Godhead.

The Bible uses the image of marriage a lot as an analogy of God.

How many Persons in ONE marriage? Is the marriage not a NEW identity distinct from the Persons in it? [If you don’t believe me, go see a credit report of a husband and wife, their marriage has becomes a new legal identity holding both responsible!]

Well, there is the Husband, there is the Wife, there is the Marriage which is the LOVE between them that becomes a new legal identity [as well as social, religious, etc,…that is why an annulment is only possible if a defect is found since the beginning, otherwise, no one can ‘break it apart’] None of these is the ‘same’ as the others, but all are equal ‘the Marriage’.

There is the Father, there is the Son, there is the Holy Spirit, the LOVE flowing between Father and Son personified, all three Persons into one Godhead, the Triune God of 3 Persons.

The best explanation I have read is from St. Athanasius [3 c.] in the famous Athanasian Creed…he explains clearly and in detail, step by step, almost fool-proof, unless one is ‘intellectual dishonest’’. He was the one who defeat this extremely ancient heresy that keeps coming back every generation, as if someone rediscovered the wheel!

Yes it is possible to explain this, just most people are not as accurate as the early Fathers of the Church used to be, this heresy is SO old and had been refuted SO many times, that most people don’t even pay much attention to it…you can go online and find all the refutations…

I’m including the link, but please understand that when it says ‘catholic’ it means Christian, because on the 3rd c.[when this was written] every Christian was Catholic…today, many Reformation Protestants believe it as well, it is a prominent doctrinal document for Lutherans, for example. Obviously, to them, Catholic doesn’t mean the Latin Rite under the Pope…

newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Athanasian_Creed

Enjoy! It is a beautiful doctrinal document for all Christians!

 

[zach_dunn]

Well, there is the Husband, there is the Wife, there is the Marriage which is the LOVE between them that becomes a new legal identity [as well as social, religious, etc,…that is why an annulment is only possible if a defect is found since the beginning, otherwise, no one can ‘break it apart’] None of these is the ‘same’ as the others, but all are equal ‘the Marriage’.

Wow, that’s an impressive analogy that I never thought of before, thank you!

Zach

 

[Sunflower15]

if the “Trinity” is so simple why can you not explain it?
i understand simple math
god the father + the holly spirit + Jesus = 1 or 3
1+1+1= 1 or 3
if Jesus is god you are polytheistic the belief in more than 1 god.

or you can come up with a confusing parable of an egg and try to make sense of it.
but if Jesus is god he did not die on the cross because god can not die and 1/3 of something dieing is not death

god the father forsaken Jesus on the cross and Jesus did not understand why.
1 god understands its actions and douse not forsake ones self.

You are actually presenting two ancient heresies, not one! And the funniest thing is that both are opposite, which means that these two heresies contradict each other! And, you say that the Trinity makes no sense!

Well, the Athanasian Creed should dispel both heresies for you, as it did for countless ‘intellectually honest’ Christians throughout history who sincerely wanted to understand both the Holy Trinity -Triune God- and the dual nature of Jesus as fully Man and fully God. The Man died at the cross, the divine cannot die, of course. NO 1/3 odf God died! Another IMPORTANT aspect of understanding God is the indivisibility NOT containing ‘parts’ but a whole. The 3800+ traditions of Christianity cannot avoid these truths, even when they truly seek to find ‘differences’ or ‘contradictions’…do you not find that odd?

In a very primitive analogy, which is NOT the same because our human nature is spiritual and physical together/combined, [not as Jesus double nature is], but can you not speak of your body/mind as distinct from your spiritual soul? Can’t you? Why then can you not at least in a VERY imperfect analogy [for the reason I pointed out] can you not think of the spiritual Father & Holy Spirit, along with the Son, WHO also is physical besides spiritual?

And, let me ask you, where does the material world come from if God has not materiality within HIM? Were we not created in His ‘image and likeness’? Does that not mean that somehow, He must have at least the potentiality of physicality? If we are like Him and He has NO possibility of physicality, how come we do have bodies?

A strictly philosophical axiom [devoid of faith or religion] states that ‘one cannot give what one does not have’ [in Latin, ‘nemo dat quat non habet’]. God had to have physicality at least in potentiality [in the sense that an acorn has the potentiality to become a tree, even if it isn’t yet].

The Athanasian Creed clearly explains both truths that dispel the confusion of these heresies. We must remember, it is the objective of Evil to bring confusion, division & doubt, it doesn’t have to offer answers or solutions, just doubt! But, instead, Jesus claimed to be the Way, the Truth, the Light’…

Pax Christi!