Is Jesus God?

[Martin_R]

A verse that supports what I said in post #121:

Hbr 1:3 The Son reflects God’s own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly… NLT

 

[Martin_R]

This sounds like a correct explanation of John 1:1

answeringantimormons.com/John%201-1.htm

 

[Martin_R]

If no one has seen God and Jesus was seen by thousands, that tells me Jesus can’t be God.

Jesus made His Father known.

 

[placido]

Dear Martin R, if I understand you correctly you believe Jesus is the

1. Son of God,
2. God’s Messenger,
3. High Priest,
4. Our Lord and master,
5. The head of the church and our Savior.
   That is true, but that is not the whole truth.
   Let us prayerfully consider the following Bible texts (I have capitalized some words for emphasis):

Luke 1:26-33:

Luke 1: In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a VIRGIN betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of DAVID, and the virgin’s name was MARY. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear A SON, and you shall name him JESUS. He will be great and will be called SON of the MOST HIGH, and the Lord God will give him the throne of DAVID his father, and he will rule over the house of JACOB FOERVER, and of his KINGDOM there will be no end.”

Isaiah 7:13-14:

Then he said: Listen, O house of DAVID! Is it not enough for you to weary men, must you also weary my God? Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the VIRGIN shall be with child, and bear A SON, and shall name him IMMANUEL.

Isaiah 9:5-7:

For a child is born to us, a SON is given us; upon his shoulder DOMINION rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, Mighty-GOD, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace. His DOMINION is vast and forever peaceful, From DAVID’s throne, and over his KINGDOM, which he confirms and sustains By judgment and justice, both now and FOREVER. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this! The Lord has sent word against JACOB, it falls upon Israel;

It seems the Bible texts above are talking about Jesus, whose dominion over the house of DAVID (his father) is forever. We know this child is Jesus – and Isaiah 9 says He is Mighty God. I repeat: MIGHTY GOD.

Jesus will rule the Kingdom for 1000 years then hand it back to God.

Half true. As we have seen above, His rule is forever.

placido

 

[Martin_R]

John 8:58
“58 Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’”

I’ve often wondered about that verse.
If He was saying, “I have always existed”, then why pick Abraham? Wouldn’t it be better to say before Adam?

If He was saying “I Am God”, then why mention Abraham at all?

 

[Martin_R]

Dear Martin R, if I understand you correctly you believe Jesus is the

1. Son of God,
2. God’s Messenger,
3. High Priest,
4. Our Lord and master,
5. The head of the church and our Savior.
   That is true, but that is not the whole truth.

No, I know that.
I put “etc.” at the end to show I hadn’t included everything.

As for Isaiah 9, all the main translations (except the NIV) say his name shall be called…
It appears to be saying his name is mighty God, not that he is God Almighty himself.

Philippians 2:9
Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,

1John 3:23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.

Hbr 1:4 This shows that God’s Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is far greater than their names.

Also lots of people in the bible were given names that contain the word God e.g. Jehu means “Yahweh is He.”, Eliakim means “God raises”, Elzaphan means “God is Protector”, Elisha means “God is Salvation”, Michael means one who is like God, Elijah or Eliah = “my God is Jehovah” or “Yah(u) is God” etc. etc. (There are lots more)

Also Acts 3 tells us to have faith in the name of Jesus:

16 “Through faith in the name of Jesus, this man was healed—and you know how crippled he was before. Faith in Jesus’ name has healed him before your very eyes.

Which fits in with, “his name shall be called mighty God”.

God Himself tells us that He has given somebody else His name in Jeremiah 23:

5 “For the time is coming,”says the Lord,
“when I will raise up a righteous descendant[a]
from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom.
He will do what is just and right throughout the land.
6 And this will be his name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’**
In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

** Hebrew Yahweh Tsidqenu.

And another example here:
Exd 23:20
"See, I am sending my angel before you to lead you safely to the land I have prepared for you.
Exd 23:21
Pay attention to him, and obey all of his instructions. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sins. He is my representative–he bears my name.

So if an angel bears God’s name, why can’t Jesus?

That might also explain why Thomas called Jesus by God’s name when he finally realised who Jesus was.****

 

[placido]

I’ve often wondered about that verse.
If He was saying, “I have always existed”, then why pick Abraham? Wouldn’t it be better to say before Adam?

If He was saying “I Am God”, then why mention Abraham at all?

I agree. That verse can only be used as supporting/additional evidence but not as the main evidence because even angels existed before Abraham, yet they are not Divine. But … the phrase “I Am” seems to mean more than meets the eye. Why “I Am”? Why not not “I was” or simply “I existed before Abraham”?

placido

 

[placido]

It seems now, for us to achieve the desired progress, we will have to move a step at a time.

No, I know that.
I put “etc.” at the end to show I hadn’t included everything.
As for Isaiah 9, all the main translations (except the NIV) say his name shall be called…
It appears to be saying his name is mighty God, not that he is God Almighty himself.

You believe Jesus’ other name is “mighty God” but He is not God, is that what you are saying?
If so, let’s start counting: so far we have one Almighty God and one mighty God. In other words, One true God and one false god (god by name only), right?

placido

 

[Martin_R]

In post #129 I said Proverbs 8 might be referring to Jesus.

Well, it starts at verse 1 with, “Listen as wisdom calls out!”

and
1 Corinthians 1 says:
30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself.

so that looks like it probably is.

 

[Martin_R]

It seems now, for us to achieve the desired progress, we will have to move a step at a time.

You believe Jesus’ other name is “mighty God” but He is not God, is that what you are saying?
If so, let’s start counting: so far we have one Almighty God and one mighty God. In other words, One true God and one false god (god by name only), right?

placido

“Almighty God” = “Mighty God” (Sorry didn’t mean to say it 2 different ways).

and “Almighty God” = “Mighty God” = “God (the Father)”.

and Jesus was given God’s name as shown in my quotes.

 

[Martin_R]

Something else I just discovered:

The Hebrew word “elohim” means angels (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Psa 8:5, Psa 68:17) but can apply to Yahweh Himself (Gen 1:26).

 

[placido]

“Almighty God” = “Mighty God” (Sorry didn’t mean to say it 2 different ways).
and “Almighty God” = “Mighty God” = “God (the Father)”.

and Jesus was given God’s name as shown in my quotes.

Fine, you are systematically destroying your own arguments.
You said “Almighty God” means (=) “Mighty God”. And “Mighty God” means (=) “God (the Father)”.
Now, according to Isaiah, “Mighty God” was born. According to you “Mighty God” means “God (the Father)”. In other words, Isaiah 9 is talking about the birth of God the Father. Hahahahahahahaha!!!

placido

 

[Martin_R]

No, read post #136 again.
He (Jesus) was given God’s name.

 

[Martin_R]

Jesus was also a servant of God (Isa 42:1 & Matt 12:18).
To add to my previous list.

 

[Newbie2]

Jesus will rule the Kingdom for 1000 years then hand it back to God.
The Bible, therefore, sometimes speaks of the Kingdom of Jesus and sometimes the Kingdom of God. There are several stories Jesus tells to illustrate the Kingdom of God but none of those stories illustrate a 3 in 1 concept. Don’t you find that curious?

Since Christians believe in a triune God, myself included, no…I do not find that curious, no do I find a lack of the word “trinity” in Scripture.

So you worship Jesus but do not consider him God. THAT I find curious.

 

[zach_dunn]

I’ve often wondered about that verse.
If He was saying, “I have always existed”, then why pick Abraham? Wouldn’t it be better to say before Adam?

If He was saying “I Am God”, then why mention Abraham at all?

He wasn’t trying to say he always existed, He was trying to say that He is God invoking the name of “I am.” (This would imply that he had existed always, but that’s not what He was claiming.) The Jews knew perfectly well what He was saying and claiming to be, and that’s blasphemy, something that Jews were stoned for [Lev 24:16]. So the Jew KNEW that He was claiming to be God so they “took up stones to throw at Him.”[v. 59]

Why use Abraham? Because of the context, in verse 56 Jesus tries to use something familiar to them (their “father Abraham”) to try to demonstrate that He is the Messiah. Then they asked if He had seen Abraham, so He used this opportunity to claim that He is God.

 

[zach_dunn]

Surely if Jesus is God, the first and second parts of that sentence should be identical i.e. it should read:

The Father is neither made nor begotten; The Son is neither made nor begotten.

Not really Martin, it’s critical for you to understand a little Trinity Theology. The most important part being the difference between a person and a nature. I think I might have explained this before, but, here it goes:

A nature is what makes something what it is. It is it’s substance, it’s essence.

A person is what distinguishes us from other beings.

The Trinity professes three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) that share one Divine Nature. The Divine Nature is what makes God God, all three of the Persons have the same Divine Nature. That is how there is only one God, there is only one Divine Nature. But, there are three Divine Persons in the Trinity, that distinguish them from each other. I’ll demonstrate that this is completely possible. Let’s look at humans.

Each human (excluding Jesus) is one human person with one human nature. My person distinguishes me from you, we are not the same person. But we are both human, because of our human nature we are both humans. There is only one human race because there is only one human nature.

So the original statement (The Father is not made or begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten) is possible with Jesus being God. Jesus’ Divine Person was begot by the Father. And with a Divine Person comes the Divine Nature. That is why that statement is possible.

 

[zach_dunn]

If no one has seen God and Jesus was seen by thousands, that tells me Jesus can’t be God.

Jesus made His Father known.

Read the verse again:

John 1:18
“18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” [NASB]

Who is this “He” referring to? The “He” is referring to “the only begotten God” who has made the Father known. This verse is talking about Jesus and it directly asserts that Jesus is God.

Martin, It is clear in scripture that Jesus claimed to be God, will you listen to Him and accept His claim? Or will you dismiss Him and go on not worshiping Jesus in the sense that He is God. I’ve asked you this before but you never answered me.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Martin R, if you don’t mind me asking, which sect of Protestantism do you adhere to? I am unfamiliar with any Protestant denominations that deny the divinity of Christ. (Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not included.)

 

[zach_dunn]

Martin R, if you don’t mind me asking, which sect of Protestantism do you adhere to? I am unfamiliar with any Protestant denominations that deny the divinity of Christ. (Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not included.)

He says he doesn’t adhere to any (or that he doesn’t know which one), he is just a Christian that “believes in Christ.”