Is Jesus God?

[E.E.N.S]

He says he doesn’t adhere to any (or that he doesn’t know which one), he is just a Christian that “believes in Christ.”

Figures. All too common of a problem when you come up with your own erroneous conclusions based on sola scriptura + private interpretation.

/sigh

 

[zach_dunn]

That sounds like it might be God creating Jesus.
Then He continues creating things on His own until verse 26 when it reads,
"Then God said, “Let us make people [fn] in our image, to be like* ourselves*.” NLT

Nope, you shouldn’t ignore the rest of the scriptures, John 1:1-2 for intance.

But then we have Proverbs 8:22-36NLT which also might be talking about Jesus.
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else."

That tells us Jesus was created before anything else which seems to contradict Genesis 1.

I wouldn’t suggest the NLT as a translation to use personally. But other versions read like this:

Proverbs 8:22
“22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.” [D-R]

So, in this translation it’s just saying that God had Jesus there already, not that He was created. The question is, which one is closer to the Hebrew/Greek. I vote for the D-R translation.

Maybe creation was a joint effort.
It has been said that Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus. If it is, then we have this:
Pro 8:30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.

Jesus was there but God did the creating:
Pro 8:27 "I was there when he established the heavens, when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
Pro 8:28 I was there when he set the clouds above, when** he established** the deep fountains of the earth.
Pro 8:29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas, so they would not spread beyond their boundaries. And when **he marked off **the earth’s foundations,

So maybe God created Jesus and then created everything else for him:
Pro 8:30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.

I’ll get back to you on this but I have to go now!!

 

[placido]

“Almighty God” = “Mighty God” = “God (the Father)”.

I don’t want to misunderstand you, but I think these signs (=) are supposed to mean EQUAL.
If not, explain what you mean.
If so, then you are saying “Almighty God” equal “Mighty God” equal “God (the Father)”.
In other words the Mighty God of Isaiah 9 is the same as God the Father. That means the father was born, not the son.
That is wrong then.

He (Jesus) was given God’s name.

That makes Jesus a false god because, not being God, He is called God.

Jesus was also a servant of God (Isa 42:1 & Matt 12:18).
To add to my previous list.

Don’t forget Jesus, the Son of Man, was 100 % human as well. Nothing wrong for a human being a servant of God.

placido

 

[Newbie2]

This whole thing is kinda silly, really.

By definition, a Christian worships Christ as God. If one does not consider Christ as God, he or she is not a Christian. Pretty simple.

Martin seems to be stubbornly refusing to accept these simple facts, instead trying to redefine what Christians believe and have believed for a couple thousand years.

 

[placido]

This whole thing is kinda silly, really.

By definition, a Christian worships Christ as God. If one does not consider Christ as God, he or she is not a Christian. Pretty simple.

Martin seems to be stubbornly refusing to accept these simple facts, instead trying to redefine what Christians believe and have believed for a couple thousand years.

That is the “strong delution” of 2 Tess 2:11.

placido

 

[Sunflower15]

Agreed!
I’m glad!

Thank you very much! I think you may have answered the question.
I’ll have to think about it some more but I think I now understand. I think my understanding of who Jesus is is correct but my understanding of trinity wasn’t.

Great!

To me, God is the creator and highest authority so nobody else can be God as there is only one. But you (I think) are saying God is like a family name, therefore, Jesus can also be God. Or two different cars can both be described as a Ford but they might be totally different models.

Are you saying that your issue was that you understood the Trinity to mean that the Son was the Father, and both of them, the Holy Spirit? No, they aren’t.

Each is a different ‘PERSON’ but the three Holy Persons form the Trinity, all share the Lordship or the Godhead. All Christians believe that Father has pre-eminence in the sense that the Son is ‘begotten of the Father’, and the Holy Spirit is ‘sent by the Father’…though Catholics believe that He is also sent by the Son,while Orthodox believe that just the Father. The Father just IS.

Now, ‘begotten’ does NOT mean ‘made/created’…Jesus is NOT a creature, nor is the Holy Spirit. But the Father is the Creator…Wisdom/the Word [Jesus] was ‘around’ when everything was created by the Father.

Though we are all using analogies that will be imperfect due to the nature of God vs. everything else, yes, the Ford analogy or the ‘family’ analogy would work…at least in a very imperfect, primitive way…

 

[Sunflower15]

It says, “The Father is neither made nor begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father;”

So The Father wasn’t made but has always existed. The Bible tell us that.

But “the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father”.

Can somebody explain that please? I’m trying to work out where that comes from.
Jesus has/has not always existed?
Begotten = “Came from” the Father. The Bible tells us that but as far as I can make out, it doesn’t say if He was created or has always existed.

I’ll humbly try …

Please, keep in mind that if we use human language, we are by necessity limited by human concepts that are way out of God’s realm… you can even see the differences when translating from one language/culture to another, which may not even have those words because they don’t think those thoughts/concepts! [at least not literally]

Yes, the Father is the ‘main’ Person in the sense that everything/everyone ‘proceeds’ in one sense or another from HIM WHO IS - The I AM.

The Son is ‘begotten’ , though NOT MADE/Created, and ‘ONE in BEING w/the Father’ meaning of the same ‘stock/stuff’ [don’t know how else to convey that they have the same nature, while We were made of clay/dust/earth]. The Bible says that Wisdom/the Word [2nd Person of Trinitiy] was there at the creation of everything while the Father was doing the ‘creating’…

Here the ‘family’ analogy works fine. The Son is not the Father, but definitely, he is a ‘heir’ because He is a Son, not a creature [as everyone else is]. They share the same nature, as a family would. Maybe it could also help imagining that everything that relates to God gets personified, * themselves].

In this case, His Word/Wisdom is the Son, His Love/Breath of Life is the Holy Spirit. God is ONE in three distinct PERSONS WHO form a community in the Godhead - the ‘I AM’.

The 2nd PERSON - the Word/Wisdom has always existed. The begotten part does not imply TIME…It establishes ‘Precedence’ not Time. [The other two Persons ‘Proceed’ from the Father’…not a Time issue, but an assessment of the ‘similar nature’ and of a ‘sense of belonging’ to each other.

God exists in the present moment - the I AM. However, the 2nd Person became INCARNATE [The Word became Flesh] and thus joined HISTORY [human/creation TIME] as fully human in Jesus.

Jesus has two natures simultaneously, the 2nd Person [divine] and Jesus [human], in Whom two distinct Wills operate. The Divine Will and the human will, which never contradicted His divine Will - Jesus never sinned.

Please, understand that I’m using plain language, a Theologian would at least use better terms, though even those would be human language and not exact enough. I’m just trying to convey at least the basics. It is not an easy concept…it’s counter-intuitive…like the Virgin-Mother one…

 

[Sunflower15]

That sounds like it might be God creating Jesus.
Then He continues creating things on His own until verse 26 when it reads,
"Then God said, “Let us make people [fn] in our image, to be like* ourselves*.” NLT A good point to consider an inclusive ‘community’ in the Godhead in the ‘creating of everything’

But then we have Proverbs 8:22-36NLT which also might be talking about Jesus.
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else."

My translation says:
‘The Lord begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago…’

Nothing to imply ‘creation/making’…but bearing a Son…

Remember HOW God creates everything…by ‘saying/commanding it’ …by HIS WORD!!! Yes, that means the Father created everything from His Will by HIS WORD [2nd Person] WHO always does the WILL of the Father! Then, those who are given LIFE are ‘ANIMATED’ by HIS BREATH of LIFE [3rd Person- Holy Spirit - Ruarch ‘WIND’ in Hebrew]

And there you have the Trinity - the Triune God - 3 Persons in ONE God!

 

[Sunflower15]

And another example here:
Exd 23:20
"See, I am sending my angel before you to lead you safely to the land I have prepared for you.
Exd 23:21
Pay attention to him, and obey all of his instructions. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sins. He is my representative–he bears my name.

So if an angel bears God’s name, why can’t Jesus?

That might also explain why Thomas called Jesus by God’s name when he finally realised who Jesus was.

Theologians traditionally understand many places in the Old Testament where God says that He will send ‘HIS ANGEL’ to mean the Holy Spirit… please understand that the ancient Hebrews did not have an understanding of the Trinity either.

[BTW: That is why I asked you the other day whether you were perhaps Jewish…I was going to get into this]

It seems that in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, God makes a difference between the ‘angels’ and HIS ANGEL…meaning HIS SPIRIT of LIFE & LOVE = Holy Spirit = 3rd Person of Trinity

 

[Sunflower15]

I am sorry to post so many comments, but I thought it better to address each question separately.

I just wanted to comment that when Jesus was questioned before the Sanhedrin, they were trying to establish whether Jesus was guilty of ‘blasphemy’ which means that HE had gone around claiming to be GOD, which is precisely the crime for which he was put to death!!!

During his questioning, the Sanhedrin asked him directly whether it was true that HE claimed to be God [or even -the Son of God, no one could claim that being a creature], He responded:
’You say that I AM’…
notice the name of GOD, of which the Jews are forbidden out of respect to even speak, Jesus speaks the forbidden name ‘I AM’ and even worse, about HIMSELF!

The Sanhedrin did NOT miss this! They said:
’What further need have we for testimony? We have heard if from his own mouth.'

Frankly, for me, regardless of anything else that might or might not be in the Bible, HE CLAIMED TO BE GOD and for THAT CLAIM was given the Death Penalty!!! for Blasphemy!

In that, I agree with the Sanhedrin,
’What further need have we for testimony? We have heard if from his own mouth.'

 

[Martin_R]

He wasn’t trying to say he always existed, He was trying to say that He is God invoking the name of “I am.” (This would imply that he had existed always, but that’s not what He was claiming.) The Jews knew perfectly well what He was saying and claiming to be, and that’s blasphemy, something that Jews were stoned for [Lev 24:16]. So the Jew KNEW that He was claiming to be God so they “took up stones to throw at Him.”[v. 59]

Why use Abraham? Because of the context, in verse 56 Jesus tries to use something familiar to them (their “father Abraham”) to try to demonstrate that He is the Messiah. Then they asked if He had seen Abraham, so He used this opportunity to claim that He is God.

In your way of thinking of God, yes. Father and Son are both God.
Now that I understand how you think of God thanks to Sunflower15, I can see your point of view.
But when I read John 8 I understand it like this:
Jesus is speaking with great authority which the people don’t realise He has been given by God. But He has (John 3:35). Before Jesus came along, God had said, “Who is my equal?” Isa 40:25 & Isa 46:5. So they thought the authority Jesus was speaking with was blasphemy e.g. v 51.
So they say in John 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Are you greater than the prophets, who died? Who do you think you are?"NLT
then He speaks of Abraham as if He’s met him and they respond in verse 57: The people said, "You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham? NLT then in verse 58 Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!” NLT

So their reasons for wanting to stone Him are:

1. They think He’s possessed by a demon (v 52)
2. He thinks He’s greater than Abraham (v 53)
3. He claims to be the Messiah, Son of God (v 56)
4. He claimed to be without sin (v 46)
5. He insulted them calling them children of the Devil (v 44)
6. He tells them they are not God’s children (v 47)

Regarding verse 58, I know you prefer the translation, “Before Abraham was, I am.”
But if you look up the word for “I am”, it’s “εἰμί” meaning to be, to exist, to happen, to be present. Which is how the NLT translates it and it does answer the previous verse - How can you say you have seen Abraham?
The word “εἰμί” is used 146 times in the Bible and doesn’t always refer to the name of God.

 

[Martin_R]

Read the verse again:

John 1:18
“18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” [NASB]

Who is this “He” referring to? The “He” is referring to “the only begotten God” who has made the Father known. This verse is talking about Jesus and it directly asserts that Jesus is God.

Martin, It is clear in scripture that Jesus claimed to be God, will you listen to Him and accept His claim? Or will you dismiss Him and go on not worshiping Jesus in the sense that He is God. I’ve asked you this before but you never answered me.

That verse uses the word “theos” again. I know you don’t like it but Strongs says it can mean “whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way or God’s representative”.

I don’t think it is clear that Jesus claimed to be God (only if you think of God as a family name that can describe a group of people). But I can’t think of any Biblical reasons why we should think like that. There ought to be verses like this

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and He’s also God (Jehovah or Yahweh)”

and should this:

1Cr 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life. NLT

really have been worded a little better? Maybe it should say:

But we know that there is only one God and He consists of three parts…

 

[Martin_R]

I don’t want to misunderstand you, but I think these signs (=) are supposed to mean EQUAL.
If not, explain what you mean.
If so, then you are saying “Almighty God” equal “Mighty God” equal “God (the Father)”.
In other words the Mighty God of Isaiah 9 is the same as God the Father. That means the father was born, not the son.
That is wrong then.

That makes Jesus a false god because, not being God, He is called God.

Don’t forget Jesus, the Son of Man, was 100 % human as well. Nothing wrong for a human being a servant of God.

placido

Yes = means equal.
I didn’t realise I had typed both “mighty” and “Almighty”. I should have picked one of those words and stuck to it.
What I was trying to say is as follows:

Jesus was not God but came in the name of God and, therefore, used God’s name as He was God’s representative.

Exd 23:21
Pay attention to him, and obey all of his instructions. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sins. He is my representative–he bears my name.
NLT

 

[Martin_R]

This whole thing is kinda silly, really.

By definition, a Christian worships Christ as God. If one does not consider Christ as God, he or she is not a Christian. Pretty simple.

Martin seems to be stubbornly refusing to accept these simple facts, instead trying to redefine what Christians believe and have believed for a couple thousand years.

Ha! That’s a quite a good point.
That made me think.
I suppose I’d answer that as follows:

I worship God but also His Son because He (God the Father) said we should.
Perhaps I should be called a Godstian-Christian.

 

[Martin_R]

Are you saying that your issue was that you understood the Trinity to mean that the Son was the Father, and both of them, the Holy Spirit? No, they aren’t.

No, it started from the “Why Catholics adore Mary” thread.
If Jesus is God, that makes Mary the mother of God, which I think is wrong.

 

[Martin_R]

please understand that the ancient Hebrews did not have an understanding of the Trinity either.

I wonder why Jesus didn’t explain it to them then.
Maybe He didn’t think of Himself as a trinity either.

Thank you for you explanations.

 

[Martin_R]

During his questioning, the Sanhedrin asked him directly whether it was true that HE claimed to be God [or even -the Son of God, no one could claim that being a creature], He responded:
’You say that I AM’…
notice the name of GOD, of which the Jews are forbidden out of respect to even speak, Jesus speaks the forbidden name ‘I AM’ and even worse, about HIMSELF!

No, the question in Mat 26:63 was: But Jesus remained silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I demand in the name of the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

and again:

Mat 27:40 “So! You can destroy the Temple and build it again in three days, can you? Well then, if you are the Son of God, save yourself and come down from the
cross!”

and again:

Mat 27:43 He trusted God–let God show his approval by delivering him! For he said, `I am the Son of God.’ "

and again:

John 19:7 The Jewish leaders replied,** “By our laws he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God.” ** Not because he called Himself God.

and again:

Mat 27:54 The Roman officer and the other soldiers at the crucifixion were terrified by the earthquake and all that had happened. They said, “Truly, this was the Son of God!”

He didn’t say, “Oh dear, we’ve killed God”, or a part of the Trinity.

I’m sure they would have accused Him of claiming to be God if He’d have said that.

Luk 23:35 The crowd watched, and the leaders laughed and scoffed. “He saved others,” they said, “let him save himself if he is really God’s Chosen One, the Messiah.”
(Not God, but God’s chosen one).

He was also on trial for claiming to be a king - king of the Jews.
John 19:12 Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders told him, “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”

Mar 15:2 Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied, “Yes, it is as you say.”

which is another reason He is worshipped:

Mat 2:2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We have seen his star as it arose, and we have come to worship him.”

Mar 15:18 Then they saluted, yelling, “Hail! King of the Jews!”
Not Hail Mary! But that’s another thread

(All quotes from NLT)

 

[zach_dunn]

No, the question in Mat 26:63 was: But Jesus remained silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I demand in the name of the living God that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

How about you read verse 65:

Matthew 26:65
"65 Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy.”

How was he committing blasphemy? To you the Son of God means nothing more than being God’s chosen one. The Jews didn’t have any problem with this, in fact, they were EXPECTING the chosen one to appear. There problem with Jesus is that He claimed to be God. When He says that He is the Son of God, the Jews KNEW He was claiming the Divine Nature and saying that He was in fact God! It doesn’t get anymore clear than this Martin. The Jews knew it, but somehow it has escaped many of Jesus’ own followers of the modern era. Like I said before Martin, you either have to trust Jesus in what He says about Himself, or you have to think He’s not telling the truth. I sincerely hope you choose the first option.

and again:

Mat 27:40 “So! You can destroy the Temple and build it again in three days, can you? Well then, if you are the Son of God, save yourself and come down from the
cross!”

and again:

Mat 27:43 He trusted God–let God show his approval by delivering him! For he said, `I am the Son of God.’ "

and again:

John 19:7 The Jewish leaders replied,** “By our laws he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God.” ** Not because he called Himself God.

and again:

Mat 27:54 The Roman officer and the other soldiers at the crucifixion were terrified by the earthquake and all that had happened. They said, “Truly, this was the Son of God!”

He didn’t say, “Oh dear, we’ve killed God”, or a part of the Trinity.

I’m sure they would have accused Him of claiming to be God if He’d have said that.

Luk 23:35 The crowd watched, and the leaders laughed and scoffed. “He saved others,” they said, “let him save himself if he is really God’s Chosen One, the Messiah.”
(Not God, but God’s chosen one).

Martin, you clearly do not know what it means to be the Son of God. No matter how many verses we show you, they won’t work unless you understand what the Son of God implies. It implies “of the same nature as,” meaning Jesus has a Divine Nature, meaning He is God. Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of man because He has two natures. The Jews unequivocally knew what this meant as very passages show Jn 8:59; Jn 5:18; Jn 10:33]. They knew and you should know, I guess the only way to convince you is to show you a verse that directly states that Jesus is God. So I’ve done some searching and I’ve come up with these, hopefully they’ll convince you:

Titus 2:13
“13 Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

1 John 5:20
“20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”

John here even says that being the Son of God is being the true God.

Romans 9:5
“5 To them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.”

These verses without a doubt teach that Jesus is God, I cannot see how you cannot believe it anymore. You have been given ample evidence, have these verses made you at least think of the possibility that Jesus is God?

He was also on trial for claiming to be a king - king of the Jews.
John 19:12 Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders told him, “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”

Mar 15:2 Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied, “Yes, it is as you say.”

which is another reason He is worshipped:

Mat 2:2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We have seen his star as it arose, and we have come to worship him.”

Let me share something with you:

Exodus 20:1-5
"1 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.”

Why do you worship Jesus? That would make Him a false god considering you don’t believe Him to be God. I’m sure you’ll say that God said to worship Him, but then God would be contradicting Himself, something He cannot do. He lets people worship Jesus precisely because Jesus is God.

Mar 15:18 Then they saluted, yelling, “Hail! King of the Jews!”
Not Hail Mary! But that’s another thread

Luke 1:28
"28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

This, Gabriel said to Mary.

(All quotes from NLT)

I still must say I don’t quite like the NLT, they’ve tried to modernize the Bible which shouldn’t be done. This translation has lost a lot of power because of it.

 

[zach_dunn]

I wonder why Jesus didn’t explain it to them then.
Maybe He didn’t think of Himself as a trinity either.

Thank you for you explanations.

Who says He didn’t? He could have taught it by mouth, what Catholics call Tradition. But that is another thread as well.

 

[zach_dunn]

That verse uses the word “theos” again. I know you don’t like it but Strongs says it can mean “whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way or God’s representative”.

You’re right Martin, I don’t like it because Strong is WRONG. Go here please, then go here (a Greek to English translator) and check the ancient Greek box then search theos. You know what? You don’t even have to check the box because either way there is only one answer, God.

I don’t think it is clear that Jesus claimed to be God (only if you think of God as a family name that can describe a group of people). But I can’t think of any Biblical reasons why we should think like that. There ought to be verses like this

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and He’s also God (Jehovah or Yahweh)”

We’ve given you plenty of quotes [Tit 2:13; 1 Jn 5:20; Rom 9:5], unfortunately the NLT distorts most of them. I have a question, why do you like the NLT?

and should this:

1Cr 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life. NLT

really have been worded a little better? Maybe it should say:

But we know that there is only one God and He consists of three parts…

This doesn’t prove your point, if anything it proves ours. Read past the “there is only one God” part. You’ll see it says “there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ.” Lord is used to refer to God hundreds if not thousands of times in the Bible. This doesn’t prove anything, just that the Father and Jesus are both God and Lord.

Just look at Luke:

Luke 1:43
“43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

This is, of course, referring to Jesus. The funny thing is that every time the word “Lord” is used before and after this verse, it is referring to God. This is just one of the many hints of Jesus’ divinity.