Is Jesus God?

[Martin_R]

Except that logically speaking, God cannot have ‘parts’ because it is a perfect whole being… so we speak of ‘Persons’ instead…which means something different from what the modern sense means…as does most of the philosophical/theological language

Another thing to consider about the Holy Spirit [3rd Person of Trinity] is that the HS is the one Who:

1. overshadows Mary to conceive
2. rests over Jesus at His baptism to begin His ministry
3. lifts Jesus up at His resurrection

Only GOD can do those things…as well as the following for us:

1. breaths Life into living things and humans at Creation [animates]
2. descends upon the disciples at Pentecost

I haven’t spent time looking into the Holy Spirit being/not being a person yet.
I’ve seen verses to suggest it could be and other that suggest not.
But like I said that’s off topic really as that’s why I called this post “Is Jesus God?” and not “Is God a trinity?”.

 

[Martin_R]

Wait a minute…HOW so?

IF the Holy Spirit is GOD…but is not the Father…NOR another Person of the triune GOD,
THEN…Who is it?

How can it be God, but NOT the Father, and NOT any other Person of God because there are NO other ‘persons’???

Well I’m saying maybe you could be right about that, I can’t really discuss it as I haven’t yet studied it.

 

[NotWorthy]

Haven’t I explained that already?
Calling Jesus “God the Son” seems wrong to me, saying God came to earth in human form seems wrong to me, saying God is three persons in one seems wrong to me. I can’t find any of these ideas in the Bible.

Jesus was seen by a very large number of people performing miracles. When Paul and Barnabas healed a crippled man in Acts 14, the crowd brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates and began to offer sacrifices to them because they thought they were gods in human form. Now if Jesus really was God in human form, you’d expect the same reaction wouldn’t you? Instead Jesus tells people He is the Son of God (and, of course, they don’t believe it (Matt 4, Matt 27, Luke 4)).

Well, what are the settings? Paul and Baranabas are in a pagan territories where it is believed that gods walk the earth with men.

Jesus is in the heart of the only monotheistic culture in the ancient world. The idea of “son of God” is alien to them.

Then there was the story of the man who rented his vineyard to some farmers (Mark 12) and they kept beating and killing the servants the owner had sent. In the end he sends his son thinking they won’t kill him but they do. This is obviously speaking of God sending prophets and then His Son to earth. Wouldn’t the story be a bit better if it had something about three in one in it? Something along the lines of, “the owner was God and He sent His Son and He was God as well”? I can’t believe Jesus forgot about that bit.

I don’t think He did. But, look at the Old Testament, especially at the Covenants. Does God reveal Himself to the ancient Jews in baby steps, teaching them a little more as they go along? Jesus is facing the same thing with the Jews. If he’d walked up one day out of the blue and said, “Hey, by the way, I AM”, He would have been the laughing stock.

 

[Martin_R]

In time Martin, God will soften your heart. You will not be able to cover your ears so as to not hear nor close your eyes so as to not see. During that time all that will be left is your pure decision and will. You can choose to be prideful and believe that every single Christian up until you had it wrong all along, or you can submit to God and learn from all the others who not only lived closer to the time of Christ, compiled the very bible that you use and for some reason “still got it wrong” even though they may have studied it more extensively than you, humble yourself and hear the truth and seek not to understand but to believe. Till then, God bless you, I will pray for you.

Maybe or maybe what I’m reading is correct.
Don’t need to cover my ears or close my eyes.
I just just check what I hear or see with what I read in the Bible.
It’s not about what every single Christian believes as they didn’t believe in a trinity in the first century. It’s also not submitting to God, it’s submitting to people. I don’t think they did get it wrong - they didn’t mention a trinity. I’m trying to believe what I read in the Bible, not what people say. Thank you and God bless you too, I pray for you as well.

 

[Martin_R]

But he did. You have to read his writings in light of the the other passages in the New Testament. A good apologist does not take one verse as doctrine without first viewing it in light of the other gospels. Once you do you will see that the Trinity Is.

That is what I do.

 

[Martin_R]

Ok, that cuts it. You must be reading a Jehovah Witness bible.

No but I think they are right about this.

 

[Martin_R]

But its not. The Spirit is not Power nor Will but a Person, just as Christ was or as God the Father. A person, like you or me but divine and apart of the trinity. This is why many people keep asking you if you are a Jehovah Witness. Either you once were, you learned from them or you are reading their bible.

No, never been one or read any of their Watchtower mag’s.
As a friend said, why do they give out that and not the Bible?
I don’t think they believe in the pre existence of Jesus, do they?
I do.

 

[Martin_R]

Can any one tell a lie to a “power” or to a “will”? Can a “power” or a “will” take a decision? I don’t think so.
And, if you believe the Spirit is “part of God” then it is just a question of semantics: we do believe the same thing, the only difference being we say the Spirit is one of the three Divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - one God.

placido

Yes maybe but why is there no mention of the Holy Spirit on God’s throne (Acts 7:55-56; Rev 7:10)?
Why is there no mention of it (Him) in the Divine order:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (King James Version)
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Luke 1:35*- says the Holy Spirit created Christ. Ifthe Holy Spiritwas a literal beingother thanthe Father (i.e. God) Christ would be said to be the son of the Holy Spirit and not the son of the Father wouldn’t He?

John 20:21-22 (King James Version)
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So Christ gave the apostles God?

OK I’ve made a few quick notes but not more than that.

 

[Martin_R]

On Jesus being God:

Luke 6:1
Then he said to them: ‘The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.’

Jesus here claims to be ‘lord of the Sabbath’ which is the day of the Lord in the commandments, and in the commandments, the Lord is meant as God.

Also, please note that from the point of view of God, Jesus is the ‘Son of Man’…though from our point of view, Jesus is the ‘Son of God.’

But Jesus came later and was given all authority so, yes, He is lord of the Sabbath.

Mat 9:8
Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen right before their eyes. They praised God for sending a man with such great authority. NLT

 

[Martin_R]

In the Holy Scriptures we see the Holy Spirit taking decisions; the Holy Spirit being sinned against; the Holy Spirit being lied to … seems the Holy Spirit is a person.

I think it depends on the number of posts. Until recently I was still a junior even though I joined a year ago, while some who joined after me are already senior simply because they posted more.

placido

Maybe but see post #278.

 

[Martin_R]

Quote Sunflower15 (in black)

Originally Posted by Martin R (in blue)

Yes but the Bible says God’s Son, Jesus became flesh, not God became flesh.
Hbr 2:14 & 1John 4:2

Actually, it doesn’t say that Jesus became flesh…rather that the Word/Wisdom [of God] became flesh in Jesus.

But “I am” doesn’t sound like a correct name for God if that is the case.
“We are” would be better. I’m not trying to tell God what His name should be, just trying to understand from the information we have.

In Hebrew, one of God’s names in the Bible is ELOHIM, which seems to be in plural form…something to the effect of ‘WE ARE’. It is used from our point of view towards God.
However, if ANY of the 3 Persons were to address HIMSELF it would logically be with ‘I AM’…that actually points to the individual personhood of the 3.

Oh yes it does say that:
1John 4:2 Says that Jesus (g2424 Ἰησοῦς Iēsous) **Christ **(g5547 Χριστός Christos) has come in the flesh is from God. NASB

The plural *could *be referring to God and the Holy Spirit, yes.
But God, Jesus and the Spirit - all three? Seems unlikely.

 

[E.E.N.S]

We see in John 1 that Scripture tell us that the Word was God, and that the Word became flesh:

*1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

*14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

We also see that the Apostles thought Jesus was God:

28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

St Paul says in Phil 2:6, “[w]ho, being in very nature God,…”

And also one of John’s disciples, Ignatius of Antioch, believed that Jesus was God:

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (*Letter to the Ephesians *1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.,18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (*Letter to the Romans *1 [A.D. 110]).

 

[E.E.N.S]

Luke 1:35*- says the Holy Spirit created Christ. Ifthe Holy Spiritwas a literal beingother thanthe Father (i.e. God) Christ would be said to be the son of the Holy Spirit and not the son of the Father wouldn’t He?
.

Luke 1:35 in no way says that the Holy Spirit CREATED Christ, no it says: “35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

This is when the Word (God) became man as also mentioned in John 1. (See my post above.)

 

[E.E.N.S]

My belief about the Spirit is the same as yours, I expect, not the Trinity.

Wait a minute…HOW so?

IF the Holy Spirit is GOD…but is not the Father…NOR another Person of the triune GOD,
THEN…Who is it?

How can it be God, but NOT the Father, and NOT any other Person of God because there are NO other ‘persons’???

Well I’m saying maybe you could be right about that, I can’t really discuss it as I haven’t yet studied it.

You haven’t studied it, yet you come in here making these outlandish assertions??

…

 

[zach_dunn]

No, I don’t find that verse a problem. Christ is God’s representative and exact likeness, He shows us what God is like so saying God is in (or dwells in) Christ is a perfectly reasonable way of putting it. He has God’s character and qualities.

A verse that supports what I said in post #121:

Hbr 1:3 The Son reflects God’s own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly… NLT

You said this to me in reply to Colossians 2:9. I find it funny that you use Hebrews to defend your position when it is utterly refuted a few verses later:

Hebrews 1:8-9
“8 But to the Son he says,‘Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. 9 You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.’” (emphasis mine, this is from the NLT, wow! )

This is one of the most compelling passages in showing Christ’s divinity. God (the Father) directly calls the Son “God.” Then, in verse 9, God refers to both the Son and the Father. Does this promote polytheism? No. It shows that the Son and the Father are both one and the same [John 10:30] God, just different persons.

What do you make of this Martin?

 

[zach_dunn]

“Almighty God” = “Mighty God” (Sorry didn’t mean to say it 2 different ways).

and “Almighty God” = “Mighty God” = “God (the Father)”.

and Jesus was given God’s name as shown in my quotes.

There’s something you seem to be missing here about what a name meant in the time of Christ. It was very different then now. A name was not something you were called, it defined who you were. This is evident in scripture, a good example is Peter. In Matthew 16:18 Simon’s name was changed to Peter (rock). This changed his identity, he went from being a simple fisherman to being the foundation of Christ’s Church (cf. Matt 16:18). It is also evident in the name Christ itself. Christ means “anointed one,” which is precisely what Jesus was, the anointed Messiah of Israel.

This helps us understand Isaiah 9. When Jesus is to be called “Mighty God” it defined who He is, i.e. God Himself. This also helps us understand John 8:58, Jesus claims God’s name, “I AM.” The name means that God IS, that means that God is simply BEING or EXISTENCE. This means that Jesus was claiming to be existence Himself which the Jews knew was not possible unless He is God. That means that the Jews knew He was calling Himself God which is why they tried to stone Him!

I sincerely hope you are coming to a deeper understanding of who Jesus is.

 

[Martin_R]

1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Shouldn’t that say," the God, Jesus Christ"?

 

[NotWorthy]

1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Shouldn’t that say," the God, Jesus Christ"?

So, do you get to pick and choose Scripture verses.

Ignore John 1, 1-3 and choose 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[placido]

1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Shouldn’t that say," the God, Jesus Christ"?

Jesus is 100 % God (Colossians 2:9, John 1:1) who became 100 % man (John 1:14) without ceasing to be God.
Yes, I know that only with the necessary faith one can understand this.

placido

 

[zach_dunn]

1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Shouldn’t that say," the God, Jesus Christ"?

I guess you just glossed over post 285. This does not conflict with Catholic teaching at all.

This is what the Catechism says in paragraphs 461-464:

461 Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”, the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it. In a hymn cited by St. Paul, the Church sings the mystery of the Incarnation:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

462 The Letter to the Hebrews refers to the same mystery:

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, Lo, I have come to do your will, O God.”

463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.” Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings “the mystery of our religion”: “He was manifested in the flesh.”

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

As you can see, this verse does nothing to the orthodox Christian position. Jesus was man which is evident from that verse, but it is also evident that Jesus is also God
which is evident from several verses [Jn 1:1, 14; Heb 1:8-9; Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1].

I really don’t understand how you can’t see that scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is God.