Is Judas in heaven?

[jcrichton]

What does that mean? The part where Jesus words are not conclusive. The words in red are the most important. If Jesus’s words are not conclusive then then leaves room for us to do what ever we want under the guise that Jesus words are not conclusive?

…not! …not conclusive to Judas’ state; the Chruch is stating that Christ did not demonstrate, with that particular statement, that Judas had been condemned… the Church is not saying that those who were not picked to Betray Jesus but choose to do so fall under the same understanding of that particular passage.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sure, yeah…I think most people would agree it’s best not to betray someone you love–not the most loving or enlightened choice, indeed.

But still…to say it’s better that he not be born at all?
When so much of the religion is about admitting one’s errors and asking forgiveness, etc, etc.
You really don’t see those two ideas contradicting each other?

If he was born, it means he was meant to be born. Why, even tho he made a bad choice, would Jesus say it’s better that he *not *be born?
Judas was integral in the events outlined.

Why do you think Jesus says–if he did say this–that it’s better he had not been born? What does he mean by this?

…Jesus is speaking of the magnitude of the event (Betrayal of God) not of the man–had Judas’ betrayal not been paramount then all of the prophecies relating to Jesus’ death at the hand of the foreigners, on the behest of Jewish religious after being Betrayed by one of His Own would have been mute (this includes everything about the Suffering Servant and the Lamb of God); it is the reason why Jesus did not pray for Judas conversion… still, the magnitude of the event was that it was better for the betrayer not to have been born… personally, I think that it is also a special clause (get out of hell, if you will) to allow Judas back from damnation: Judas actually offered the only thing he had in exchange for Jesus’ life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In my opinion Jesus means: it would be better for Judas to have never been born because of his choice to betray Me and despair of My forgiveness and remain impenitent unto death and spend the rest of eternity in Hell!

If Judas winds up in heaven with Jesus–even if he went through the greatest suffering of anyone during a hypothetical purgatory–if he wound up with Jesus then the statement–

“it would be better for that man if he had never been born” could not be true!

That is IMPOSSIBLE since Jesus cannot lie!

Therefore Judas must have wound up in Hell!

…or your speculation could mean that God’s Mercy is not so grand since He Knew that Judas would Betray Him and then kill himself and in an egotistical and tyrannical whim God allowed it all to happen so that His Plan could take off without a hitch!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But I thought Judas was repentant…and very regretful, remorseful…immediately after?
Didn’t he feel so terrible about what he’d done that he returned that silver–tossing it back into the temple in anguish–and then hung himself?

(Matthew 27:3): When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

He saw his terrible choice and admitted it and “confessed” his sin and was filled with remorse. The words in the Matthew book describe him as very repentant before he dies.

Jesus doesn’t seem like someone who’d toss around words lightly and say something that isn’t true.
But perhaps he was…misquoted?

…or perhaps the interpretations are wrong… just as the take that Judas was not really repentant but rather just felt bad that his plan did not work out or something to that effect…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Remorse because he betrayed Jesus or remorse because he knew what would await him after he died?

He could have gone to Jesus and asked for forgiveness and mercy on his soul, Jesus would give him these if it was real but he hanged himself instead.

If I commit a mortal sin and feel bad afterwards followed by suicide, do you think I would go to Heaven? What if I went to confession and continued with my life?

Sometimes we all do or say things that are not very nice, afterwards we may feel bad about it but do we all then say sorry to the one we hurt? Not everybody, not always.

…actually not all Jews believed in life after death… not even the religious; there existed two houses (Pharisees and Sadducees) one did not believe in angels and the afterlife (check the challange to Jesus about the woman who married seven brothers)… so why would Judas, who was as fringe a Believer if there ever was one, would be so concerned with the afterlife?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Only God knows but the information we have from Scripture would indicate he is in Hell.

From the mouth of Jesus:

Matt 26:

24 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.

Nobody can convince me that he is in Heaven.

I know that’s something between you and your God.

But consider too that you are stating that Jesus Knew that Judas was a devil and that he would commit suicide and Jesus just let it happen!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We dont know if Judas confessed in his heart after his betrayal though. I wonder if he committed suicide because of his guilt, shame and remorse over what he did. No sin is greater that the mercy of Christ.

…but that is the point… Judas did not know this… Peter did not either… and Peter was the most ready-to-Believe of Christ’s Disciples!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

How can you go from guilt and confessing in one’s heart to suicide and then to Heaven?

…well… ignorant of God’s Mercy… thinking he has to pay ‘eye for an eye’ and meeting Jesus, in the Spirit, and becoming convicted of God’s Love and Mercy!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Gods mercy is greater than our sin and transcends our logic and comprehension… maybe Judas was sorry for what he did but couldn’t live with the consequences. if he wasn’t sorry or remorseful he probably would have felt comfortable with his choice to betray and would have walked away from the situation at peace with himself. But he clearly did not and was tormented with guilt and shame to point of hanging himself. was he apologetic before? maybe, who knows.

I don’t agree that suicide equals hell if that is what you imply. The Catechism will tell that that is not the case.

…no one wants to place themselves in Judas’ shoes: Betrayer, ignorant, impotent to undo, impotent to rescue Jesus, impotent to continue to Live with the Guilt, empty of everything but sorrow and remorse, knowledgeable of Roman Crucifixion, ignorant of Christ’s ability to lay down His Life and Take Up again…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is understandable but he killed himself which would throw any remorse into Jesus’ face.

I understand that anyone no matter how evil they have been in their entire life can still go to Heaven if he repents but to repent and then kill yourself negates the repentance.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!’

He would not have said this as He knew what Judas would do in the end.

If Judas would have repented and asked for Mercy he would have received it.

…did Judas and the other Eleven know this?

…are we forgetting that they did not have nearly 2000 years of Church History… but that the Church had not even began her infancy at the time of Christ’s Crucifixion?

…we get so caught up with interpretation… some claim that John never abandoned Jesus… that somehow his Faith was stronger than the rest… yet the same people do not understand that Judas lacked Faith and understanding!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Correct.

I don’t know why people are in love with this theory that contradicts the clear words of Christ.

It veers dangerously close to the heresy of universal salavation.

God Bless

…so the Church is on the verge of heresy?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Christ said, Judas is in his own place, and that it was worse for judas to dispair of God’s Mercy than the betrayal.
all he had to do was to beg forgiveness of Jesus, at the point in the garden Christ still called him friend. He dispaired of God’s Mercy he didnt trust the Lord to forgive him.

…so if that’s all it took, why did Jesus not pray for Judas as He prayed for Peter?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Do any of you have compassion and mercy in your heart for Judas?

…yes, it is found at the five and ten; we the saved ones have no need for compassion (I hope you understand that I’m being facetious)! :harp:

 

[jcrichton]

Catechism 2283 on suicide. Was Judas exempt from this?

…not versed on the Catechism, does it mention anyone who has been destined to Betray Jesus?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Nelka;9551703:

Allow me to explain.

It matters not whether I have compassion or mercy, this happened a long time ago.

If you teach that people who commit suicide go to Heaven or Purgatory instead of Hell you are actually helping people to commit suicide as they have nothing to fear.

Many years ago I was on the very edge of such actions but the thought of Hell was all that stopped me. If I had been an atheist or if I had been taught that I would still go to Purgatory than I would have continued.

Remember the two on the crosses each side of Jesus? One repented but the other did not. One defended Jesus but the other did not. This teaches us that whatever we do in life we can always ask for Mercy and forgiveness and we will receive it.

Judas felt guilty but it was not enough. It is like gambling away the mortgage money, feeling guilty and running away, how does that help your family? Whereas seeking help and forgiveness from your spouse you can together fix the problem and have a happy life.

Judas made a choice after the betrayal and now has to live with it for eternity.

Poor soul, I have compassion for all lost souls but it is too late for them now, better to focus on those who are to die today who will be lost without our prayers.

…we do not even know the exact manner in which he died since there are two version: hanging and dropping from a clif… finally, it is not about Judas’ shortcomings but about God’s Mercy, if Christ could pray for Peter to return to Him, and Peter’s Denial pales in comparison to Judas’ Betrayal, why did a Merciful and Loving God not go out on a limb for the most needy of His Sheep?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sometimes we “help” people without realising.

Judas did not go to confession, he did not go to Jesus, he did not go to the other apostles, he hanged himself. Do you not see the difference in these acts?

He did not trust in the Mercy of God, if he did he would have not killed himself.

Jesus Christ Himself said “Better for that man if he had never been born”, who are we to argue with this statement?

The people you speak of leaving confession did two things different to Judas, firstly they went to confession, let’s say for arguments sake that Judas confessed to God in a field somewhere. Secondly the people you speak of did not, after leaving confession, go home and hang themselves but Judas did.

If Judas was able to confess his sins, commit suicide and end up in Heaven than you may aswell legalise euthanasia which I am against.

…were you there when they Crucified My Lord?

…are you aware of the timeline?

Jesus had been arrested, the sheep scattered, John had an in (based on some business relations, I suppose), he spoke for Peter, most of Jesus disciples (followers) began to head for the hills and the caves and the express out of town in fear of reprisals, women were mute in society so mothers and other relatives and acquaintances were not seen as posing a threat, Judas committed the worst possible act against his Rabbi and everone knew it, Judas was not a true Believer, not all Jews believed in the afterlife, even the other Eleven did not completely comprehend Jesus Death and Resurrection, Judas was left hanging!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

ejp,

With due respect, I humbly think you should think of Judas in this manner (if, as it seems, it really concerns you as much as it does): Judas COULD have been admitted into Heaven, after definitely going through Purgatory, because of some mental “defect” that made him not responsible for his actions. This is the equivalent of the “insanity” defense in criminal law (I am a trial attorney by trade) - not knowing right from wrong or some other standard, depending on what a particular state defines as lessening one’s responsibility for one’s criminal acts.

But from an OBJECTIVE point of view, neither you, nor anyone else, can dispute the following:

1. Judas betrayed Jesus for money.
2. Judas gave back the money because he claimed the Sanhedrin misled him. Whether he was remorseful about what happened to Jesus or that he was misled, the bible does not clearly say.
3. Judas hung himself after giving back his “pay”.

We know NOTHING else about him.

Again, unless someone can say that Judas suffered from some mental defect that lessened his culpability AS TO HIS OWN DEATH, then how can one say that suicide is forgiven? One cannot ask for forgiveness (legitimately) BEFORE they sin. That would be essentially a “get out of jail free card”, and it goes completely contrary to Catholic teaching for 2000 years.

If Judas could have gained entry into heaven, why did Jesus label him as a man who would wish he had never been born? This is a question I think you must address.

P.S. It was not until my lifetime (and I am not yet 50) that suicide victims were granted Catholic funerals. Before my birth, suicide victims suffered the safe fate as those Catholics who had been excommunicated and not reconciled to the Church before their death. That may sound harsh, but God’s laws are God’s laws.

It is VERY easy to confuse “compassion” and “justice”. Catholic theology teaches that it is the HEIGHT of compassion to be just with someone.

…and how many people who have committed and will commit suicide were destined to Betray Jesus?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Fragile]

ejp123;9554599:

…we do not even know the exact manner in which he died since there are two version: hanging and dropping from a clif… finally, it is not about Judas’ shortcomings but about God’s Mercy, if Christ could pray for Peter to return to Him, and Peter’s Denial pales in comparison to Judas’ Betrayal, why did a Merciful and Loving God not go out on a limb for the most needy of His Sheep?

Maran atha!

Angel

There are not two versions, two accounts of the same version. He hanged himself, the rope broke, and he fell.

Hard to imagine “the son of perdition” being saved.

Furthermore, Judas was not one of His sheep. He was never a true believer, he was in it for himself, not sure how anyone can miss that…

“Have I not chosen you the twelve, yet one of you is a devil?!”

 

[jcrichton]

There are not two versions, two accounts of the same version. He hanged himself, the rope broke, and he fell.

…really, I must be reading the wrong Bibles… I cannot recall where a Bible said exactly what you have stated.

Hard to imagine “the son of perdition” being saved.

Correct! …was it St. Paul that mentioned that while we were yet sinners Christ died?

Hard to imagine Christ claiming to come to the lost sheep and when He finds one, He uses it and then discards it.

Furthermore, Judas was not one of His sheep. He was never a true believer, he was in it for himself, not sure how anyone can miss that…

“Have I not chosen you the twelve, yet one of you is a devil?!”

Exactly! You, and others, keep ignoring what Christ knew from the Beginning and that as a Just and Merciful God He simply allowed Judas to fulfill his obligation, and, as ignorant of Christ’s Mercy as he was, singled him out for damnation after his tremendous contribution to God’s Salvific Plan… yeah, that Christ guy is a real generous soul!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[The_Scott]

…really, I must be reading the wrong Bibles… I cannot recall where a Bible said exactly what you have stated.

I believe it has long been tradition (small ‘t’) that this is what happened. Augustine of Hippo, for example, said this is what happened.

When I first read the death of Judas in Acts (“guts spilling out”), I personally saw it as an exaggeration of his death due to Judas’ evilness. Putting such an image in people’s minds as someone jumping from a cliff and falling so that his bowels and intestines come out obviously leaves a lasting impression. Just my opinion, though.