Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[Filius99993]

time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1737323,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

 

[Lepanto]

Sadly, no. Many American Catholics today, even the “conservative” ones, would have been considered wildly “liberal/progressive” by the standards of 50 years ago, yet they don’t even realize it. It’s a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

What used to be taboo in mid-20th century Catholicism is pushed as the norm today. You only need to look at the battles in the Liturgy forum to see some examples (communion in the hand, etc.).

We can only hope that “liberal” Catholicism dies out, but in order for this to really mean anything, we’d have to undo the damage that the movement has wrought.

What are the latest subscription numbers of the National Catholic Reporter? I think that would be a pretty good indicator of the health of the movement.

 

[Filius99993]

Sadly, no. Many American Catholics today, even the “conservative” ones, would have been considered wildly “liberal/progressive” by the standards of 50 years ago, yet they don’t even realize it. It’s a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

What used to be taboo in mid-20th century Catholicism is pushed as the norm today. You only need to look at the battles in the Liturgy forum to see some examples (communion in the hand, etc.).

We can only hope that “liberal” Catholicism dies out, but in order for this to really mean anything, we’d have to undo the damage that the movement has wrought.

What are the latest subscription numbers of the National Catholic Reporter? I think that would be a pretty good indicator of the health of the movement.

Some of what is liberal is good, but not anything having to do with Catholic church. I mean, welfare is a liberal idea, and I’m pretty sure that the Church supports that idea. But those liberals who are trying to change Church teachings should stop. I think once that is accomplished, the world will be an easier place to live in for all of us. Thank goodness the movement is slowing down.

 

[hawkeye]

time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1737323,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

For me it’s always been, for others
"The gates of hell " ?

 

[edwest2]

Unfortunately, TIME embraces the “us vs. them” philosophy. In his visit to the United States, Pope Benedict called for an end to divisiveness in the Church and for unity.

What is “progressive” is only true for those who decide for themselves what their version of progress is, which may conflict with Church teaching. The Catholic Church does not embrace “modernity” as defined by magazines or so-called “movements.” The Church looks at what its followers are doing and acts according to its beliefs. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. But to believers who have been programmed by a 24 hour media to believe that change simply “happens,” I’ve got news. No one had wisdom or knowledge or enlightenment pour into their heads the moment the calendar changed from the 20th to the 21st Century. No one.

Just because we have cell phones and computers, this does not make us modern. A power failure and “modern” goes out the window. People are still grappling with the same sins of 2000 years ago. Evil has been repackaged and calls itself by different names now, but it is still the same evil.

Wake up my fellow Catholics. Pray to God for more grace so that you can be more Christ like. And pray for me as well.

God bless,
Ed

 

[james_evans]

Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

If it is my friends, then the “closing liturgy” of the 2008 West Coast Call To Action Conference is its opening farewell.

Viewing video clips from the conference reveals a whole new meaning to the term “full and active participation”, even Mr. Potato Head puppets are invited to the table and appear to concelebrate the Mass.

I’m no liturgical expert, but, I would like to know how many abuses occurred during this Mass and why it is allowed to continue.

More importantly, I’m concerned for the endangered souls who have allowed themselves to follow an organization that promotes disobedience to Church, the faith and its practice that saves.

To view the video: www.fratres.wordpress.com

Click on: “Mr. Potato Head Concelebrates The Holy Mass?”

View, then, pray as I am.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Sadly, no. Many American Catholics today, even the “conservative” ones, would have been considered wildly “liberal/progressive” by the standards of 50 years ago, yet they don’t even realize it. It’s a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

What used to be taboo in mid-20th century Catholicism is pushed as the norm today. You only need to look at the battles in the Liturgy forum to see some examples (communion in the hand, etc.).

We can only hope that “liberal” Catholicism dies out, but in order for this to really mean anything, we’d have to undo the damage that the movement has wrought.

What are the latest subscription numbers of the National Catholic Reporter? I think that would be a pretty good indicator of the health of the movement.

Actually, I see it coming in a cyclical movement. There seems to be a larger and larger disconnect from the pews the higher up you go towards the Pope. It appears to be a difference in interpretation between the Church of today and those living in an Utopian vision that never existed in the past.

The Church is a broad and diverse place, and needs to be to relate to the modern, more educated world. If the Church cannot relate to peoples’ daily life, then it has less and less meaning in peoples’ life. It is in the relating to day to day life which often is defined as “liberal”. Enforcing this rule or that rule, taking a “stern father” approach only drives people away. To move forward education, debate, discussion, and a fluid interpretation of teachings (and possibly adjusting some to the times) is needed to keep relevance.

Do we want a Church that excels in following rules to the letter, or those who are inspired by the Church to make the world a better place and not be tied up in rules and regulations?

 

[Scottgun]

Liberalism will not truly die. As one person put it:

Liberalism is about process, not content. The content of the Liberal agenda is always shifting, but the dreary process of thinking and acting Liberal, i.e., self-affirmation, self-celebration, eschewal of all external constraint in the form of authority or law, civil ecclesial, or divine, goes on and on and on . . . the veritable Eveready bunny. It is the Liberal process that is the Undead.

This is why I don’t particularly insist that the heterodox get with the program or get out and go wreck someone else’s denomination, just that they need to be kept out of the priesthood, holy orders, and various Catholic educational programs. Just like you may tolerate living with an alcoholic but don’t give him keys to the liquor cabinet, so you don’t kick out people who think all authority (except their own) is arbitrary, but you certainly don’t give them authority.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Liberalism will not truly die. As one person put it:

This is why I don’t particularly insist that the heterodox get with the program or get out and go wreck someone else’s denomination, just that they need to be kept out of the priesthood, holy orders, and various Catholic educational programs. Just like you may tolerate living with an alcoholic but don’t give him keys to the liquor cabinet, so you don’t kick out people who think all authority (except their own) is arbitrary, but you certainly don’t give them authority.

I disagree, what you are promoting is a static, unchanging Church. Ask yourself what a static Church brings? Stagnation and internal decay. “Liberalism” is not bad, it is a way of internal renewal in the Church. If following every rule to every i and t is what makes up faith, it ends up being pretty empty.

Faith is tied into spirituality, much of it on a personal level. Faith is not a one-size fits all construct.

This is why all levels need renewal with fresh ideas to keep relevance to the people in the pews. The Church is so very very human at all levels and that goes beyond rule and law books. While it gets attacked as “heterodox” at times, what is happening is renewal from fresh ideas that reflect the present time and place the institution and the humans who make it up, who are the true spiritual soul.

 

[RobbyS]

Actually, I see it coming in a cyclical movement. There seems to be a larger and larger disconnect from the pews the higher up you go towards the Pope. It appears to be a difference in interpretation between the Church of today and those living in an Utopian vision that never existed in the past.

The Church is a broad and diverse place, and needs to be to relate to the modern, more educated world. If the Church cannot relate to peoples’ daily life, then it has less and less meaning in peoples’ life. It is in the relating to day to day life which often is defined as “liberal”. Enforcing this rule or that rule, taking a “stern father” approach only drives people away. To move forward education, debate, discussion, and a fluid interpretation of teachings (and possibly adjusting some to the times) is needed to keep relevance.

Do we want a Church that excels in following rules to the letter, or those who are inspired by the Church to make the world a better place and not be tied up in rules and regulations?

Relating to the world or geneflecting to it, as Jacques Maritain warned in 1965? As for a “modern, more educated world,” you seem to be congratulating Catholics who are less educated in
their faith than their grandparents were, whatever their secular achievements may be.

Many years ago, I read a short story by Aldous Huxley–an agnostic, by the way–telling of the encounter between an English writer living in Spain and a 13-year old boy, a young fisherman as the writer was walking along the beach on the Costa Del Sol. The writer was truck by the quick intelligence of the boy. So they got into serious conversations, including matters of faith. The boy was uneducated but had been taught his catecheism very well, and the writer was amsed and somewhat confounded when he would pose a deep philosophical question, and the boy was able to respond simply by reciting an answer from the catechism but with a deep understanding of what he was saying.

We have many Catholics with PhDs who could not as responded as well. As a former teacher–public school teacher–
I know that we practiced a deeply flawed pedagogy, one that
eschews memorization and recitation, which puts process before content. The famous “dumbing down” of the curriculum,which leaves even colllege graduates without the ability to write or to understand the basics of Mathermatics. It
of course has no use for theology, does not think of it as knowledge, has no use, for that matter for philosophy. We have so meany people with a deep understanding of the work they do,but whose faith is child-like and vulnerable to challenge because it is based on nothing except what is learned in schools–even Catholic schools–where theology is not the main dish but a side dish.

 

[Scottgun]

I disagree, what you are promoting is a static, unchanging Church. Ask yourself what a static Church brings? Stagnation and internal decay. “Liberalism” is not bad, it is a way of internal renewal in the Church. If following every rule to every i and t is what makes up faith, it ends up being pretty empty.

Faith is tied into spirituality, much of it on a personal level. Faith is not a one-size fits all construct.

This is why all levels need renewal with fresh ideas to keep relevance to the people in the pews. The Church is so very very human at all levels and that goes beyond rule and law books. While it gets attacked as “heterodox” at times, what is happening is renewal from fresh ideas that reflect the present time and place the institution and the humans who make it up, who are the true spiritual soul.

There is literally no content to liberal spirituality beyond self-centered therapy. The fact that you see faith as a popularity contest and a pr campaign to keep people in the pews, and that traditional Catholicism is just rules demonstrates the defective thinking. There are thousands upon thousands of religions out there. Doesn’t the liberal value of “diversity” demand that at least one of them sticks to its guns with unchanging doctrines (or at least allow it’s continued existence)? It’s not like people are forced to be Catholic. Imagine an NAACP memeber deciding that the whites are superior to blacks and when someone suggests that he leave to join the KKK he shoots back that that is promoting a stagnant unchanging NAACP.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

There is literally no content to liberal spirituality beyond self-centered therapy. The fact that you see faith as a popularity contest and a pr campaign to keep people in the pews, and that traditional Catholicism is just rules demonstrates the defective thinking. There are thousands upon thousands of religions out there. Doesn’t the liberal value of “diversity” demand that at least one of them sticks to its guns with unchanging doctrines (or at least allow it’s continued existence)? It’s not like people are forced to be Catholic…

“Self-centered therapy”? A misunderstanding of the theology. It is about sustaining people to continue to live their lives but also bring the Church beyond just the mass and church building. Out in the world things are infinite shades of grey, not black and white.

“Traditional” Catholicism is more than just the past. Nowhere did I say to get rid of it. Yet “traditions” (or what are seen as traditions) do change over time. * It all relates to the time, era, and purpose many traditions were started at the time and how they relate to the present.* Most traditions are still there in many “liberal” parishes, just adapted to the modern time. What is seen on CAF and other boards is a type of neo-“Traditional” Catholicism which does tend to enforce rules over anything else, which if you actually go back to the times that are yearned for, there was much more compassion, openness, and relatedness to the world.

 

[Scottgun]

“Self-centered therapy”? A misunderstanding of the theology. It is about sustaining people to continue to live their lives but also bring the Church beyond just the mass and church building. Out in the world things are infinite shades of grey, not black and white.

What about the declaration that “Out in the world things are infinite shades of grey, not black and white.” That would have to be black and white in order to be true. It’s a self-refuting position, demonstrating once again the paucity of critical thinking in Liberalism and why it’s going the way of the dinosaur kept only alive by certain people’s capacity for self-delusion.

Elsewhere someone mentioned the Pontius Pilate School of Theology. I can think of little else more apt than that description of Liberal theology.

 

[Filius99993]

“Self-centered therapy”? A misunderstanding of the theology. It is about sustaining people to continue to live their lives but also bring the Church beyond just the mass and church building. Out in the world things are infinite shades of grey, not black and white.

“Traditional” Catholicism is more than just the past. Nowhere did I say to get rid of it. Yet “traditions” (or what are seen as traditions) do change over time. * It all relates to the time, era, and purpose many traditions were started at the time and how they relate to the present.* Most traditions are still there in many “liberal” parishes, just adapted to the modern time. What is seen on CAF and other boards is a type of neo-“Traditional” Catholicism which does tend to enforce rules over anything else, which if you actually go back to the times that are yearned for, there was much more compassion, openness, and relatedness to the world.

I think really that compassion is a big issue in a lot of Christian churches, but not in the Catholic one. It’s not bad to be open, but we’re never going to allow for artificial birth control (catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html) or gay marriage, because, quite frankly, they are immoral. There isn’t any real gray area of morality, but only gray people. We are in fact more related to our world than probably any other institution in existence because of this. We’re simply not going to conform. Ever.

 

[edwest2]

Stagnant in no way describes the Catholic who is living out his faith in works. This can range from faithful service in any “stagnant” job you can name, i.e. “Here are da rules. Follow dem to da letter or you is outta here.”

Someone whose orientation is service to his fellow man and family is never stagnant. Too often, people follow a false ideology that demands some undefined “newness.” Certainly, people may wear different types of clothing or change their hair styles but certain ways of living have been establishing through thousands of years of actual living and the passing down of secular and religious wisdom.

It is the calling of theologians to discern, carefully and with divine guidance, those things, both secular and religious, that illuminate and add to the truth held by the Church. The Church believes all truth comes from God and is open, but it must weigh all things against what it holds as inviolate.

For example, too many people believe that by time simply passing, things will change. “Hey. In another 20 years, people won’t be bothered by (fill in the blank).” Did wisdon or knowledge or enlightenment pour into anybody’s head when the calendar changed from the 20th to the 21st Century? No.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Scottgun]

For example, too many people believe that by time simply passing, things will change. “Hey. In another 20 years, people won’t be bothered by (fill in the blank).” Did wisdon or knowledge or enlightenment pour into anybody’s head when the calendar changed from the 20th to the 21st Century? No.

Or, Chesterton said something to the effect that saying that you can believe something in one age but not another is just as silly as saying you can believe something on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but not on Wednesdays or Fridays.

 

[Lepanto]

Oh my, I just saw the “Potato Head Mass” video posted earlier. What religion was that? Or better yet, what planet?

:whacky: :nope: :whacky: :nope: :whacky: :nope:

Here’s the direct link:

ctanorcal.org./WCCTA2008.wmv

Has this been posted on Youtube?

 

[Scottgun]

Oh my, I just saw the “Potato Head Mass” video posted earlier. What religion was that? Or better yet, what planet?

:whacky: :nope: :whacky: :nope: :whacky: :nope:

Here’s the direct link:

ctanorcal.org./WCCTA2008.wmv

Has this been posted on Youtube?

As Colonel Kurtz would say, “The horror…the horror…”:bigyikes:

 

[Scottgun]

Did you catch the end of that liturgy? The priest blesses “In the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and the Sanctifier.” If he does that at baptisms, they are not just illicit, they are invalid.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

What about the declaration that “Out in the world things are infinite shades of grey, not black and white.” That would have to be black and white in order to be true.

No, not at all. Religion deals with sociology as it relates to people on a day to day basis. In day to day life, what is “true” is most often one or more varying shades of grey. While binary language works for the inner workings of computers, it does not translate well in humankind, which the Church is part of.