Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[Holly3278]

Unfortunately, “Liberal Catholicism” is alive and well. In fact, a year or so ago, a major forum for Christians on the Internet known as Christian Forums started a new sub forum specifically for “Liberal Catholics”. I personally prefer the term “Cafeteria Catholics” but that is just me.

 

[fix]

If one reviews church history, we normally alternate between good popes and bad popes.

Conservatives (bad popes) were Piux XII, Paul VI, & perhaps JP1. Progressives (good popes) were John XXIII and JP2.

It is my belief that Joseph Ratzinger (aka God’sRotweiler ) is one of the most oppressive conservatives since Pope Pius XII. One can only hope his reign will be short and the fall out from bad decisions, bullying and thought police tactics won’t cause too much damage!

Creativity, all inclusive love, flexible thinking and a willingness to grow and innovation are the nature of God. The historic person of Jesus was a liberal. ie One who frees. He was not a traditionist, nor a royalist, nor a comma counter. Blind adherence to tradition, conditional or limited love, pettiness, inflexibile thinking and refusal to change is the hallmark of conservatisim, rigor mortis and death. Let us worship the God of the living.

Progressives are the only hope for the church! Shame on extremeist right wing blog. This is the 21st century not the 12th. Lets get on with Liberal Revolution and embrace the Great Commission…

What a rigid post.

 

[una_fides]

Unfortunately, “Liberal Catholicism” is alive and well. In fact, a year or so ago, a major forum for Christians on the Internet known as Christian Forums started a new sub forum specifically for “Liberal Catholics”. I personally prefer the term “Cafeteria Catholics” but that is just me.

Actually I think a more accurate term would be “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

 

[Holly3278]

Actually I think a more accurate term would be “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

Hmmm, maybe you’re right!

 

[Filius99993]

Hmmm, maybe you’re right!

Wouldn’t that make us all wolves, then?

 

[una_fides]

Wouldn’t that make us all wolves, then?

No, that term would just apply to those who deny some part of the faith.

 

[ToddM]

Exactly what is ‘liberal’ anyway? Seems part of the problem with clarifying this term is that if at least one end of the spectrum is ‘anything goes’, even within recognized limits, much like there can be an infinite number of points in a line segment, the definition becomes so ‘liberal’ as to be futile/pointless to even attempt. In other words, truth is truth, something is what it is, it ain’t what it ain’t, and, much like a formula, we would have to judge by some precise standard.

Conservative? Maybe this is just ‘my’ truth. I’d be happier if I were just wrong, and knew where.

 

[skyryder]

Unfortunately, it is not dead yet. Satan is still prowling about the world seeking the ruin of souls and is most active among the liberal Catholics who wish to destroy the Church of Christ by turning her into a lie and a contradiction. The Church is not and never will be a democracy, and she cannot ever change teachings she has infallibly defined. If she ever did, why would we believe anything that she would ever tell us or ever told us? It is impossible because the gates of hell cannot prevail against her… no matter how hard the liberals try.

Where I come from God is a Democrat and Satan is a Republican. Watch out for the lightening bolt!

 

[una_fides]

Where I come from God is a Democrat and Satan is a Republican. Watch out for the lightening bolt!

Not to be too argumentative or anything, but what you are saying is where you come from God promotes and encourages abortion, gay marriage, the disillusion of the family unit, widespread pornography labeled as “free speech,” and the clintons as good presidential role models? Are you sure we are referring to the same God?

 

[skyryder]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.

Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.
This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis.
Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.

Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.
This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis.
Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

There’s so many things wrong with this post, I don’t even know where to begin!

Suffice it to say, from what you are saying, you are not just saying that “conservatives” need to “rethink their credo”, you are calling for the Catholic Church herself to rethink her teachings. Have you ever considered that maybe you need to rethink your beliefs where they conflict with clear Church teaching? Or does infalliblity only extend to your post and not Church teaching?

 

[edwest2]

This is man seeking to impose his will on God, which is wrong. I have distanced myself from all political labels and the various middlemen out there who want to create division within the Church. Pope Benedict declared that all strife between groups in the Church should end. Note he referred to strife not reasonable dialogue.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

To my fellow Catholics -

In the late 1960s, America was practicing Catholocism more so than now. But, the assault on the Church began with people shouting “Freedom!” Freedom from the Church, freedom from the Establishment and freedom from any institution that they felt was in their way. They were going to start a “Woodstock Nation.” It never happened.

They were going to “expand their minds” with dangerous drugs like LSD. But there was no mention of the dangerous hallucinatory flashbacks that could occur years later.

They embraced Eastern mysticism. They were going to be free of everything!

Now, the Hippies have been pushed off the main streets of San Francisco for their annual parade due to shopowners’ complaints over their vomiting and urinating in their doorways. Drunk, high on drugs…

We’ve seen all this before. It didn’t work then and the calls for “freedom” today are the same, exactly the same.

God bless,
Ed

 

[una_fides]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.

Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.
This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis.
Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

Since you oppose virtually every tenant of the Catholic faith, I think it’s safe for me to conclude that you likely are not Catholic.

So why are we Catholic? So that we can know the truth outside of our own personal opinions. If no one but God is infallible than that means that God left us all out here on our own with know way to know the truth outside of us being lucky enough to stumble upon it (or agree with you). Every person under this model assumes his own personal beliefs to be the gospel truth and everyone else is wrong. However, since no one is infallible, then your truth is no better than mine. Everyone can have different interpretations of things and can try to stretch them to fit their own preconceptions. The key is starting with humility and humbly begging God for light from heaven. It is by this route that we are led to what inspired Scripture refers to as “the pillar and foundation of truth”–the Church (1 Tim 3:15). Apart from a foundation on which to base our faith, we are all wandering blindly around with no way to know anything and God’s grace would then be leading no one to the truth but leading everyone into error.

I could spend hours, days, weeks, and months refuting the various ideas you just put on here, but nothing anyone says will do any good unless the hearer is open to the message. If you want to know the Truth, it is out there for anyone who humbly seeks it.

 

[una_fides]

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17** The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you**. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. … 21 **He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. **And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words.

 

[ToddM]

I think conservatives need to focus less on rules and more on who God really is. If God is a reasoning, loving, and freeing person…then some of the crazy ideas advanced by the Catholic Right need to be reconsidered.

Would a God who designed a balanced eco system promote unlimited population growth? No…so Humane Vitae’s ban on birth control is wrong.

Would a rational and loving God predispose some people to be gay deep in the core of their being, and then damn them for expressing love, or seeking a life long partner? Doesn’t seem reasonable.

Would a God say priests can marry in Paul’s Letters to Timothy and then ban it years later. If God can’t lie, perhaps self appointed leaders do, for selfish ends.
.
Would a reasoning God give liberty and deny it’s use in free speech or exploration of new ideas without censorhip?

Would a loving God allow Crusades, and Inquistion to punish enemies or people a Church doen’t like? I thought Scripture said
Love your enemies and do good to persecutors.

Would a God create all men as equals and then deny that equality in the form of a dictatorial church government? No again.

If only God is infallible (because he is infinite) there is no way a finite man can be infallible by definition.

Like many Catholics I feel the church’s position on abortion, in vitro fertilization and stem cell research needs to be updated to square with scientific fact. Is a single living cell a person? No way.
This is all or nothing thinking and is a classical sign of neurosis.
Please remember that quickening was looked at as the time of ensoulment by the Ancient Church, prior to that no soul.

Would a creative God give men artistic, musical or literary gifts and then ban them from worship because the Pope doesn’t like them. Seems contrary to his nature.

The conservatives need to rething their credo from the ground up.

Look, this whole liberal/conservative thing aside, and really even religion aside. Look at the basic idea of authority. As to whether the Catholic church is true or false, right or wrong etc. etc. it is defined or ‘constituted’ by certain terms, ideas and beliefs. There are certain things that you must believe to be Catholic. You my friend, are trying to make a dog into a cat. Period. Maybe this ‘dog don’t hunt.’ but it is a very old dog which really does not nor has it ever been rather keen on many ‘new’ ideas.

If you don’t believe those basic basics, those things that we are required to believe then either (hopefully) follow your own advice and rethink some things yourself.

Is there room for reform and clean up? Sure, absolutely. But do your homework. It is very clear from what you have written that you either haven’t really studied things thoroughly enough, or you see what you want to see.

I hate the church sometimes, but why?

Because just as ‘the world’ will hates Christians just as it hates Christ, and hates being told it is wrong, so I hate not admitting that I am wrong, that I have been wrong, and that, for instance, no matter how much I loved another man’s wife I had no business sleeping with her for whatever reason, and this is the least of my sins.

I hate not being able to just ‘be myself’ and go visit hookers and strip clubs anymore.

I hate ‘feeling bad’ instead of enjoying dirtnapping some psycho who kills my friends, or gives some lady a 7.62 abortion after killing the rest of her family. At least she was ‘lucky’. She’s paralyzed.

Love your enemy. We should change that. Surely a reasonable God wouldn’t deny me turning some insurgent into a human maypole. After all, he’s a ‘bad guy’, not at all like us reasonable people.

In other words, I hate the fact that, like many, like you, I live in denial and in error at least half of the time.

Brother/Sister whoever you are, God bless you, love you and keep you but you are WRONG.

 

[james_evans]

What is it with puppets?

After posting the original “Mr. Potato Head Mass” on my blog it ripped through the web and has reached all shores swamping my site (and others) with comments concerning the travesty.

The next puppet terrorism comes to us from the controversial St. Joan of Arc parish in Minneapolis, Mn. (Palm Sunday).

Liberalism dead? That’s delusional.

See the new video here: fratres.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/the-alienated-jesus-fratres-blog-news/

Peace and God’s Blessing to all,
james mary evans

 

[skyryder]

To my fellow Catholics -

In the late 1960s, America was practicing Catholocism more so than now. But, the assault on the Church began with people shouting “Freedom!” Freedom from the Church, freedom from the Establishment and freedom from any institution that they felt was in their way. They were going to start a “Woodstock Nation.” It never happened.

They were going to “expand their minds” with dangerous drugs like LSD. But there was no mention of the dangerous hallucinatory flashbacks that could occur years later.

They embraced Eastern mysticism. They were going to be free of everything!

Now, the Hippies have been pushed off the main streets of San Francisco for their annual parade due to shopowners’ complaints over their vomiting and urinating in their doorways. Drunk, high on drugs…

We’ve seen all this before. It didn’t work then and the calls for “freedom” today are the same, exactly the same.

God bless,
Ed

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

It still exists. There are Catholic retreat centers and sisters that practice reiki, Buddhist prayer, feminine theology, earth-spirituality, enneagram, etc. There are events and parishes still dabbling in these things. It’s been my experience that often they do define themselves as progressive, and use the word “traditional” in substitution for “loyal” in regard to those who follow church teaching and respect dogma as dogma. But, the liberal trend seems to be most prevalent among the older generation, while it is the younger generations of Catholics that are becoming known for being devoutly “traditional”. So even though some are planting liberal seeds, it appears that God in the meantime is raising up quite a few faithful Catholics, and we can be assured that God has the victory.

 

[ToddM]

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